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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 1,806
Loc: Land of Oz
Last seen: 6 years, 15 days
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Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives
#6200540 - 10/23/06 02:55 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok - I'll just start out with a crazy plan, I'd like to weasel around current New Zealand legislation and hopefully find some sort of Psilocin compound that could be made legally. 
The legislation in New Zealand dealing with drugs is the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975... it can be found here (sorry you have to find it in the list under M obviously). http://www.legislation.govt.nz/browse_vw.asp?content-set=pal_statutes
Here is the part specificially dealing with Psilocin etc, it names the drug and then names what ever forms of the drugs (eg salts esters) are also illegal.
Quote:
• PSILOCINE (3-(2-dimethylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindole). • PSILOTSIN (3-(2-dimethylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindole). • PSILOCYBINE (3-(2-dimethylaminoethyl) indol-4-yl dihydrogen phosphate).
And this is the part that deals with the analogues...
Quote:
2.The isomers of the substances mentioned in this Schedule whenever the existence of such isomers is possible within the specific chemical designation. 3.The esters and ethers of the substances mentioned in this Schedule and the esters and ethers of the isomers mentioned in clause 2 of this Schedule whenever the existence of such esters or ethers is possible. 4.The salts of the substances mentioned in this Schedule and the salts of the isomers, esters, and ethers mentioned in clause 2 or clause 3 of this Schedule. 5.Substances containing any proportion of a substance mentioned in clause 1, clause 2, clause 3, or clause 4 of this Schedule.
Ok so what I want to know is, are there any chemicals that are not within these bounds - I'm thinking of Norbaeocystin and Baeocystin specifically. Can anyone figure out whether they would be illegal through being analogues?
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TheBotanist
Stranger
Registered: 03/02/06
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: Feelers]
#6202526 - 10/23/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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That would probally involve testing out substances on yourself that have unknown effects- Not something that sounds fun to me. But I would start my search here.
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/Area_of_Inte...tion_Table.html
I long list with descriptions of many pharmacologicaly active chemicals.
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TheBotanist
Stranger
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Posts: 48
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: TheBotanist]
#6202549 - 10/23/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


Registered: 06/18/02
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: TheBotanist]
#6205044 - 10/24/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well specifically Norbaeocystin and Baeocystin fit those criteria?
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: Feelers]
#6206457 - 10/24/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> Well specifically Norbaeocystin and Baeocystin fit those criteria?
No. They are not isomers, salts, esters, or ethers of the listed compounds. The carbon skeleton is different.
Luckily they've used the IUPAC names so the names will look different also. Just so some foolish jurors couldn't be convinced that parts of the common scientific names make them analogs.
I don't think either of them are pleasant psychedelics though. They're kind of nasty from what I've read.
You could try something like this...
 But I would bet they would either say it contains psilocin or that it's the ester. Well, in fact it would be entirely fair to call it an ester of psilocybin.
But there are tons of psychedelic tryptamines! Check out PiHKAL and TiHKAL by Alexander Shulgin. If you're interested in the chemistry, pharmacology, or structural effects of psychedelics then you should definitely buy a copy of each. They are well worth it and it supports the cause.
The books are just loaded from cover to cover with interesting stuff. Shulgin methodically synthesized every type of tryptamine and phenylalanine you could possibly make. And then he and a group of close friends bioassayed each one and wrote trip reports on them at various dosages! It's also all available online.
-FF
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wietstocker
product ofevolution

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 319
Loc: Cranium, PNW
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: fastfred]
#6210942 - 10/25/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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What about N,N-ethylmethyl-4-hydroxytryptamine? Or one of its esters? or other N,N-dialkyl analogues? You definitely want two alkyl chains off of that nitrogen to get the activity you're looking for. It seems to me that as those laws are written, if they are not BOTH methyl groups, you will be golden. I'm pretty sure Shulgin has investigated most of them. Check out TIHKAL. Fastfred is right, it's THE holy grail. It'll even tell you some possibly angles on the synths.
Here is an Erowid online version of TIHKAL: http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal.shtml
It will tell you what you want to know, but for the content and entertainment value, the short money that would purchase the actual book would be well spent. Also, I'm not sure how TIHKAL is set up, but PIHKAL has a section called "Book 1" that is the actual story of Sasha's life. Buy it, it's worth the $25.
The biggest hurdle for this endeavor is to ensure that you don't have a mixture of products. There'd probably need to be some chromatography to separate out possible illegal dimethyl "impurities". Then again, it depends entirely on your devised synth.
That makes me wonder, what are the precursor laws in NZ? Some of the stuff you would need to reduce/aminate might be just as unlawful as scheduled drugs themselves.
-------------------- Echoes
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


Registered: 06/18/02
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: wietstocker]
#6211142 - 10/25/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'd be getting a commercial lab to produce it probably, although depending on whats involved precursors might not be illegal.
The precursors are seperated into a class of their own, D class. Precursor Laws here.... It says acetic acid is a precursor but that seems a little weird to me, I think if you get busted with a meth lab and you have acetic acid it would get you a precursor charge.
They have published both TiKHAL and PiHKAL on the net - its the 1st half of both (the story part) that isn't there. 4 HO-MET is the one I was looking at last night as a matter of fact, lots of the things he made didnt sound very fun (as to be expected) but the ones that are like psilocin sound cool. DMT is illegal here also - would these fit the DMT analogue rules?
What I plan on doing is working out what chemicals would be legal to make(and that sound good), then writting a letter to the government and comfirming their legality so I cant get done over.
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wietstocker
product ofevolution

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 319
Loc: Cranium, PNW
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: Feelers]
#6211626 - 10/25/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Isomers have the same chemical formula. So technically, adding substituents or atoms to a molecule will change this and make it legal. But after reading those rules again, this stuck out to me: "Substances containing any proportion of a substance mentioned in clause 1, clause 2, clause 3, or clause 4 of this Schedule."
I think the term proportion is probably vague for a reason. I suspect that means if the structure, and probably any isomer, of a scheduled substance is visible in the structure of an analogue, that analogue can be considered prohibited. Or at least it could be argued in a trial that way.
I would be surprised to hear that your government interpretted that law for you without it being the topic of a court appearance. At least that's how it would work where I'm from. Maybe talk to a lawyer about it?
Anyways, good luck to you!
-------------------- Echoes
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


Registered: 06/18/02
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: wietstocker]
#6211787 - 10/25/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah I had considered that point - its an intresting one. 
It could be argued that under those rules that water, and pretty much every organic chemical would be illegal.
"ANY proportion", well a proportion of Psilocin is Hydrogen, and Water contains Hydrogen, making water illegal. It would definately be enoguh to get off I'd guess, its some pretty poor writing there.  Otherwise I'll threaten everyone in New Zealand with possesion of a class A drug. haha
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d4a2n0k
The Dude


Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 742
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: Feelers]
#6212172 - 10/25/06 09:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sorry for being kinda off topic, but in the US they these laws about carrier substances. These laws state that whatever is mixed with the drug (like baking soda for coke) is counted as the drug. With DMT being schedule 1, and with DMT in your brain, you are, under US law CONSTANTLY in possession of a massive amount. Think all your body weight is technically considered DMT in a court of law! what a crazy world we live in!
-------------------- Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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MattEx
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 110
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: d4a2n0k]
#6212233 - 10/25/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yo Feelers! A fellow NZ chemistry enthusiast here, heh .
This is the part of the law we must be wary of:
Quote:
DMT (DIMETHYLTRYPTAMINE) ANALOGUES, in which the 3-(2-aminoethyl)indole nucleus has additional radicals, either alone or in combination, attached as follows:
(a)1 or 2 alkyl radicals, each with up to 6 carbon atoms, including cyclic radicals, attached to the amino nitrogen atom:
(b)1 or 2 methyl groups, or an ethyl group, attached to the carbon atom adjacent to the amino nitrogen atom:
(c)Any combination of up to 5 alkyl radicals and/or alkoxy radicals (each with up to 6 carbon atoms, including cyclic radicals) and/or halogen radicals, attached to the benzene ring.]
When i'm not so busy i'll go into this in a little more depth!
As you can see, 4-acetoxy analogues and such are illegal due to them being alkoxy radicals. You can do as you do with the PEA's, by using alkylthio derivatives instead (like 2C-T-7) which are legal due to sulfur being unspecified in the law... but I don't really like sulfonated drugs. Too much opportunity for toxic reactions by the body.
Edited by MattEx (10/25/06 09:25 PM)
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker


Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 1,806
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: MattEx]
#6212724 - 10/26/06 12:04 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hey MattEx, where did you get that quote from? I've been reading the Misuse of drugs act 1975, it seems you have a more detailed version of it? I was under the impression that the version I was reading was the full bill, but it seems that isn't the case! I just found it at norml here...
http://www.norml.org.nz/page68.html
Well that's shit! That means its pretty much impossible, they obviously saw there was a need to tighten up on it in amendments. I thought the version I was reading was current but now I see there's a little date in the right hand corner; 1975! 
I dont spose you know where an up to date version is? The one on norml says its taken from http://www.legislation.govt.nz/browse_vw.asp?content-set=pal_statutes but it isnt - thats the same old version I was reading!
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MattEx
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 110
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Chemistry question on Psilocin derivatives [Re: Feelers]
#6212794 - 10/26/06 12:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Look in Class C.
All analogs are automatically Class C.
Also, be wary of another hidden clause in there. If a compound is deemed to be "substantially similar" to a controlled drug then it gets treated the same as the controlled drug. Shitty, eh? That's what got Methylone in the shit here. Beta-ketones aren't controlled as a ketone isn't specified in the PEA analog part, but it was so similar to MDMA that it was deemed to be one and the same, grr, despite Methylone largely lacking the degree of NE and DA reuptake inhibition that MDMA has.
I added you on MSN anyway, if you wanna chat about stuff, like some novel 4-HO-DMT mimic compounds.
The latest version as far as I know IS on the legislation.govt.nz site.
Edited by MattEx (10/26/06 12:46 AM)
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