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 EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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#6178961 - 10/17/06 02:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:29 PM)
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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That's nonsense. Citgo is not directly owned by the state of Venezula. In fact, Citgo gas locations are owned by independent franchises. So, by boycotting these gas stations, you're only hurting the pockets of the owner of the store. Consumer activism on this level is retarded.
Now, if you're actually serious, you should just reduce your use of fossil fuels entirely. And practice what you preach...
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:30 PM)
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Quote:
Purchasing gasoline from Citgo stations whenever possible is a great way for concerned citizens of the world to express support & provide resources for the progressive social programs & land reforms that are being done by the government of Hugo Chavez.
...your essay recommends it.
I read an excellent breakdown of this "argument" but I cannot for the life of me find it. Basically, it explains that boycotting or supporting Citgo does relatively nothing in the line of providing money to Venezula.
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 Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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I buy gas from whoever will sell it to me for the cheapest price.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:30 PM)
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
My post recommended buying from Citgo, not boycotting it, as you initially said i was advocating.
But, if we are to believe the argument that buying gas from Citgo helps social programs in Venezuela, doesn't that help Hugo Chavez?
You know, the same Chavez who has eliminated independent media in Venezuela? The same Chavez who makes politically-motivated arrests? The same Chavez who has cracked down on personal freedoms throughout Venezuela?
So, yeah, if you want to aid in the elimination of independent media, politically-motivated arrests, and crack downs on personal freedom, go buy from Citgo.
Or, you know, you could be a responsible consumer and just buy from the station that sells gas at the lowest price.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:31 PM)
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Quote:
My post recommended buying from Citgo, not boycotting it, as you initially said i was advocating.
My bad. But then again, boycotting and supporting Citgo does not have any meaningful affect on Venezula; it only really affects the owners of the local Citgo gas station. I will continue to try to find the article that breaks down this argument.
As far as Venezula and the Chavez regime is concerned, why should we help them? The regime in power is just as authoritarian and oppressive as those found in the Middle East. Considering you have an Anarchist symbol in your avatar, I am guessing you do not support such state oppression, correct?
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:31 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:31 PM)
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,926
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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/27/14 06:32 PM)
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RosettaStoned
Stranger
Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
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Re: Buying Gasoline [Re: Economist]
#6180999 - 10/18/06 12:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
You know, the same Chavez who has eliminated independent media in Venezuela? The same Chavez who makes politically-motivated arrests? The same Chavez who has cracked down on personal freedoms throughout Venezuela?
So, yeah, if you want to aid in the elimination of independent media, politically-motivated arrests, and crack downs on personal freedom, go buy from Citgo.
From what I have read about venezuela this is absolute nonsense. This crap is spewed from the same retards who told us iraq had WMD.
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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US 
Last seen: 7 months, 7 days
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Re: Buying Gasoline [Re: Economist]
#6181094 - 10/18/06 12:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
if you want to aid in the elimination of independent media, politically-motivated arrests, and crack downs on personal freedom, go buy from Citgo.
The first statement is completely untrue, the next two are exaggerations; Chavez hasn't done anything more extreme than Bush.
I'll bet you can't prove me wrong...
Here's a good link rebutting many of the current accusations.
The Washington Post Relies on False Statements when Criticizing Venezuela’s Chavez
Before you discount it, you should read it first. A lot of great points are made.
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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Citgo is a subsidiary of Petróleos de Venezuela S.A., the state-owned oil company of Venezuela.
you'll hear the announcement soon, Citgo is being bought out
FYI, the smog and emissions devices on cars today are actualy contributing to
the air quality problems, my 74 pontiac ran cleaner than any of the cars
produced, wanna get rid of the real polluters, do away with the diesels,
gasoline burns much cleaner and more efficiently
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The first statement is completely untrue, the next two are exaggerations; Chavez hasn't done anything more extreme than Bush.
I'll bet you can't prove me wrong...
I don't even have to go to American-media to prove you wrong:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4526642.stm
Read up on Carlos Ortega. He organized a peaceful strike, and so Chavez had him charged with treason and jailed. Chavez, a self-proclaimed "leftist" had a union leader jailed for leading a strike, talk about hyprocrisy.
Say what you want about the war on terror, Bush has NEVER jailed an American union rep. for leading a strike.
Then there's this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2658141.stm
Here we learn that if you're a local mayor who opposes Chavez, then Chavez sends the military to take away your police force. President Bush has never done anything even close to this. Can you imagine if President Bush just up and decided that he didn't like the Mayor of San Francisco rallying opposition, so he sent to military to raid the SFPD's stations? It's ludicrous.
Then we have this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3163254.stm
Here we learn that if a TV station is critical of Chavez, he sends government forces to remove their broadcasting equipment. Great. Has President Bush sent the FCC to remove Keith Olbermann's transmitter's yet?
There's also this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4599260.stm
This proves that Chavez is taking control over the Venezuela's economy, and is particularly bad at it. Items like coffee, beans, sugar, and milk are now available on the black market because Chavez has set price controls so stringent as to choke them out of the legal market.
All in all, I also don't understand what the link to Venezuelaanalysis is trying to prove. It suggests, without offering evidence, that the Washington Post was wrong in its editorials.
Forgetting for a moment the obvious answer: that editorials are opinion pieces, and anyone is entitled to their opinion, let's examine the claims they make:
From http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1114#top
"Since 1998, the Post’s editors have at various times alleged that Hugo Chávez has:
"Ruled in authoritarian manner
Attempted to destroy the private sector and establish state control over the economy
Muzzled the press
Taken political prisoners
Provoked a coup against himself
Ordered police to fire on unarmed demonstrators
Supported insurgents in Colombia
Imported Cubans to assist in the indoctrination of poor Venezuelans
Personally re-written the constitution in order to expand his own powers
These allegations are simply not true."
While, I'll give you, "ruled in an authoritarian manner" is debatable and cannot be proven conclusively one way or the other, let's look at the other "falsehoods".
I'd call price fixing for basic goods (especially when it leads to shortages) state control over the economy. It has also destroyed important parts of the private sector, whether or not this was Chavez's original intention, so we see that this allegation is actually true.
I don't know how the raid on Globovision can be called anything other than "muzzling the press". You don't send government forces to seize transmission equipment because you want to help TV stations out, so I'd say that's also founded in truth.
Carlos Ortega is VERY CLEARLY a political prisoner, so that allegation is also true.
The foundations for the coup, IMHO cannot be proven one way or another. While there was definite foreign involvement, I'd also point to massive participation in Ortega's peaceful general strike as evidence of an actively distressed opposition. Either way, this is impossible to prove one way or the other.
Ordered Police to fire on unarmed demonstrators...
This isn't really true. It did happen, but they were using rubber bullets, so it's not a fair characterization. A better one would have been to point out how many protestors died after being tortured by the Venezuelan authorities:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3571383.stm
How many American protestors has Mr. Bush tortured to death again? Oh, that's right: none.
Supported insurgents in Colombia. This is clearly true. Venezuela refused to arrest the leader of FARC, allowing him to roam freely in Caracas. When Colombian bounty hunters arrested him and took him back to Colombia, Venezuela cut ties on his behalf:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4176347.stm
The other two allegations are most likely exaggerations and falsehoods, but that doesn't change the fact that several of them were also quite true. So, Venezuelaanalysis is obviously just as slanted as the Washinton Post is, and I didn't even need to use "neocon media" to prove it.
I also don't buy into the arguments about the elections. You know who else was elected in a certified election? President Bush. The National Socialist Party in Germany also came to power via elections. Just because someone is democratically elected doesn't mean they aren't exerting excessive control over a country.
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
[Considering you have an Anarchist symbol in your avatar, I am guessing you do not support such state oppression, correct?]
Although this would be a subject for lengthy and exhaustive discussion in another thread, I will answer very briefly.
Yes, I would desire to see a world where the state and all its institutions of coersive authority are abolished, and people of all colors and creeds work together for mutual benefit and solve issues through reason, shared interests, compassaionate understanding, and rational dialouge. Before anyone dismiss such a society organization as being impractical, this is largely how indigenous Native Americans organized and operated their communities prior to European colonization. Even in Europe, examples of successful and flourishing anarchist societies abound, although the state (including the Soviet Union) has always moved in to crush any real attempt at self-organization by the people outside of the confines and limits imposed by the state. Perhaps the most shining example in European history of this is in areas of Ukraine during the Russian Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Mahkno
Getting back to the topic of this thread, and realizing the current dominance of the nation-state throughout the world in modern history and the present... I would prefer supporting Hugo Chavez and what he represents and practices compared to someone like George W. Bush. That is why I only buy from Citgo whenever possible, and encourage others who share similar convictions on the topic of war-profiteering to do the same.
I am quite familiar with Mahkno as well as libertarian socialism/anarchism/anarcho-syndicalism/anarcho-communism/the post-left. And I can tell you that no true anarchist would ever support Hugo Chavez and his rabid statism.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 7 months, 7 days
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Re: Buying Gasoline [Re: Economist]
#6185015 - 10/19/06 03:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Economist said:
if you want to aid in the elimination of independent media, politically-motivated arrests, and crack downs on personal freedom, go buy from Citgo.
The first statement is completely untrue, the next two are exaggerations; Chavez hasn't done anything more extreme than Bush.
I'll bet you can't prove me wrong...
Here's a good link rebutting many of the current accusations.
The Washington Post Relies on False Statements when Criticizing Venezuela’s Chavez
Before you discount it, you should read it first. A lot of great points are made.
I don't even have to go to American-media to prove you wrong:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4526642.stm
Read up on Carlos Ortega. He organized a peaceful strike, and so Chavez had him charged with treason and jailed. Chavez, a self-proclaimed "leftist" had a union leader jailed for leading a strike, talk about hyprocrisy.
Say what you want about the war on terror, Bush has NEVER jailed an American union rep. for leading a strike.
The link I posted discussed this issue:
"The strike in Venezuela was found by the courts to be illegal. Such a labor action would have been found illegal in the U.S., first because its leaders were making political demands unrelated to salary, benefits, or working conditions, and second, because in the United States, federal workers do not have the right to strike. Thus, to characterize the arrest of individuals who led an illegal strike that cost the Venezuelan economy billions of dollars as political repression is patently unfair." I'm not sure that inciting unrest that lead to the deaths of 7 people qualifies as a peaceful strike, either.
Quote:
Then there's this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2658141.stm
Here we learn that if you're a local mayor who opposes Chavez, then Chavez sends the military to take away your police force. President Bush has never done anything even close to this. Can you imagine if President Bush just up and decided that he didn't like the Mayor of San Francisco rallying opposition, so he sent to military to raid the SFPD's stations? It's ludicrous.
Actually, he took over the police because the Mayor was using them to suppress pro-Chavez demonstrations, something not allowed in a free-speech country.
Quote:
Then we have this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3163254.stm
Here we learn that if a TV station is critical of Chavez, he sends government forces to remove their broadcasting equipment. Great. Has President Bush sent the FCC to remove Keith Olbermann's transmitter's yet?
Actually, they got in trouble for broadcasting on illegal frequencies. Although the station is critical of Chavez as you pointed out, the very first line of your article reads "The move has not taken Globovision off the air"
Quote:
There's also this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4599260.stm
This proves that Chavez is taking control over the Venezuela's economy, and is particularly bad at it. Items like coffee, beans, sugar, and milk are now available on the black market because Chavez has set price controls so stringent as to choke them out of the legal market.
Chavez' intentions are good - keep prices affordable to all. Hey, if we buy Citgo gas, Chavez can use the profits to help keep coffee affordable.
Quote:
Attempted to destroy the private sector and establish state control over the economy
I'd call price fixing for basic goods (especially when it leads to shortages) state control over the economy. It has also destroyed important parts of the private sector, whether or not this was Chavez's original intention, so we see that this allegation is actually true.
I don't think there's any evidence that he's trying to destroy the private sector. Limited state control is normal in a socialist country, it's not like he's trying to control the entire economy. Plus, there aren't any real shortages of items, just people hogging them to charge higher prices later.
Quote:
I don't know how the raid on Globovision can be called anything other than "muzzling the press". You don't send government forces to seize transmission equipment because you want to help TV stations out, so I'd say that's also founded in truth.
Again, Globovision wasn't taken off the air. Only transmission on illegal frequencies were "muzzled".
Quote:
Carlos Ortega is VERY CLEARLY a political prisoner, so that allegation is also true.
I disagree, based on the information above.
Quote:
How many American protestors has Mr. Bush tortured to death again? Oh, that's right: none.
Actually, At least 108 people have died in U.S. custody in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and roughly a quarter of the cases have been investigated as possible U.S. abuse
Quote:
Supported insurgents in Colombia. This is clearly true. Venezuela refused to arrest the leader of FARC, allowing him to roam freely in Caracas. When Colombian bounty hunters arrested him and took him back to Colombia, Venezuela cut ties on his behalf:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4176347.stm
I'd say that neutrality is not the equivalent of support.
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