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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Phred]
    #6177711 - 10/17/06 10:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Phred stated:

WTF?

I've asked you this before and I'll ask it again -- why don't you just come clean and admit you are really a right winger doing a wildly over-exaggerated over-the-top parody of a Leftie for your own twisted amusement?



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thats some of the funniest shit I have read in a longtime! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6178464 - 10/17/06 02:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I was out for much of the weekend, but Annapurna1 did a very nice job explaining the problem. The bottom line is, how we claim to be a great country if we don’t even allow for fair trials? We’re not; we’re just a bunch of thugs. And that's the not the America I care to live in.

Amen.

Kangaroo courts are un-American.






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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: zorbman]
    #6180385 - 10/17/06 10:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Amen.

Kangaroo courts are un-American.



But I think this is a horrible mischaracterization.

Personally, the biggest issue I have with the MCA is that military tribunals are like fetilizer for left-wing nutcases.

To begin with, no American Citizen (including those who don't support the Republicans) loses their Habeas Corpus protections. This is not only in the MCA itself, but it's backed up by the Supreme Court in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (which I linked earlier in this thread), as well as the Libertarian Party (you can see their interpretation of the MCA here: http://www.lp.org/fp/article_413.shtml .

Note how even the Libertarian National Party states that American Citizens aren't losing their habeas corpus protections.

For this reason ALONE, Olbermann was clearly lying when he claimed that the MCA killed habeas corpus.

Then we can look at the other provisions of the act. For example, lets look at what the MCA has to say on statements made while being tortured:
"Sec. 948r. Compulsory self-incrimination prohibited; treatment of statements obtained by torture and other statements

`(a) In General- No person shall be required to testify against himself at a proceeding of a military commission under this chapter.

`(b) Exclusion of Statements Obtained by Torture- A statement obtained by use of torture shall not be admissible in a military commission under this chapter, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made."

Oh, look at that, you can't be incriminated by any statement you make as a result of torture - you can only be incriminated by hard evidence and facts gathered without the use of duress.

What does this mean?

That there is a limit to how much can be gained via endless detention and torture. Now, I know that the extremists out there will immediately believe that this is irrelevent because the neocons are heartless and just want to prison and torture people wantonly, but assuming any rationality at all, it's easy to recognize that there is a useful limit to torture and detention imposed by section 948r.

Now, it's one thing if you disagree with torture and the use of military tribunals. Personally, I disagree with both, I think the jury trials would be fine, and I think that we will never improve our intelligence systems if we need to resort to torture.

However, that does not mean that debate is aided through mischaracterization and applying purposefully misleading spin to the MCA. President Bush does enough lying and exaggerating for all of us without the other side showing the say wanton disregard for the truth.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Economist]
    #6180547 - 10/17/06 11:18 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hearsay. Secret evidence. Military appointed lawyer for defendant. Coerced evidence (oxymoron) allowed if judge considers permissible. Bush decides himself what interrogation methods are permissible and his decision can stay secret.

Yep.

Kangaroo court.

If they want to make someone disappear all they have to do is fabricate a terrorism charge and say that one person died and the accused may as well fashion their own coffin while they wait to be found guilty and killed.

This discussion is all academic anyway because there is no requirement that a military tribunal be held within a certain time frame.

They can just black-bag someone, send them to their secret prison and never hold a trial.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (10/18/06 03:52 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Phred]
    #6180619 - 10/17/06 11:40 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Why do you claim the trials aren't fair?

Remember we are not talking about trying an American citizen for murdering a business rival or anything remotely similar, but discussing which process is appropriate for deciding whether captured aliens in time of war are enemy combatants or not.



I'm talking about the entire justice system. A defendant could be convicted and executed based on coerced evidence that he has never seen. A case could go forward based exclusively on second- or third-hand summaries of evidence, even if the evidence was obtained through the use of cruel and inhuman interrogation techniques. And the only automatic right of appeal would be to an entirely new appellate court of military commission review, with all of the judges appointed by and under the chain of command of the Secretary of Defense.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Economist]
    #6180658 - 10/17/06 11:50 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
no American Citizen (including those who don't support the Republicans) loses their Habeas Corpus protections. Note how even the Libertarian National Party states that American Citizens aren't losing their habeas corpus protections.




To me, that's like saying "don't worry about the torture that's going on, because American citizens aren't getting tortured." Either you believe that torture is wrong, or you don't.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6180804 - 10/18/06 12:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

^niemöller...


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6181873 - 10/18/06 12:04 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
To me, that's like saying "don't worry about the torture that's going on, because American citizens aren't getting tortured." Either you believe that torture is wrong, or you don't.



Again, where did I say "don't worry about torture"?

I'm just asking people who engage in public debate to do so honestly, something Olbermann has not done. It is completely appropriate to be concerned about the MCA, and to have public discourse about it.

It is, however, inappropriate to mischaracterize it and make statements about it that are simply untrue.

Lying about the contents of the MCA benefits no one.

Honest public debate begins with being honest about the topic being debated.


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OfflineZogby
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Economist]
    #6182725 - 10/18/06 03:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
So, the Bill only removes habeas corpus protections from non-citizens, i.e. aliens. Thus, when Olbermann is claiming that the bill "kills habeas corpus" he's flat out lying.




Hey Ecockomist there's a little law call the 14th Amendment of the Constitution - In it there is a part called the Equal Protection Clause and it protects citizens and aliens under the same laws, so the 2006 Military Commissions Act is effectively killing habeas corpus and in violation of the Constitution. Look up Plyler v. Doe (1982) then crawl back in a hole and let Rumsfeld rape ya!


--------------------


"We know where they (Weapons of Mass Destruction) are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

-Donald Rumsfeld


Edited by zubdog (10/18/06 03:40 PM)


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Zogby]
    #6182734 - 10/18/06 03:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zubdog said:
Hey Ecockomist there's a little law call the 14th Amendment of the Constitution - In it there is a part called the Equal Protection Clause and it protects citizens and aliens under the same laws, so the 2006 Military Commissions Act is effectively killing habeas corpus and in violation of the Constitution. Look up Plyler v. Doe (1982) then crawl back in a hole and let Rumsfeld rape ya!



Opening with a cheap-shot namecalling, always classy.

Anyway, you clearly aren't up on your Supreme Court Rulings, so I'll help you out. In Hamdi v. Rumsfeld the Supreme Court decided 7-2 that Habeas Corpus did not necessarily fall under the scope of "equal protection" or "due process".

But you don't have to take my word for it, you can read about it on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld

or you can read the decision itself: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-6696.ZS.html

So, if Olbermann wanted to be honest he could say that the Supreme Court had already killed Habeas Corpus, or he could say that the MCA killed Habeas Corpus for non-citizens. Or, you know, he could just be dishonest like he was.


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