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 UnderNose
all out of bubble gum
Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 1,612
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 Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction.  [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6180569 - 10/17/06 09:25 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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It would be nice to see some pics of the final product.
I have a few things on my mind that I have been unable to clear up.
Is extracting always going to waste some "active ingredients", No matter how well it is done.?
In my reading it looks like methanol gets more out but this is poisonous, so you have to totally evaporate, which presumably means degradation of the actives.
Also would Methylated spirits work as a solvent that you intend to totally evaporate.
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LAGM 2.022  
Edited by UnderNose (10/26/06 11:18 PM)
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: UnderNose]
#6181238 - 10/18/06 02:48 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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> how best to use the volumes for a three-pass extraction?
Do a two pass. Three is a waste, everything is removed in the first two. You'll get about 90% the first pass and the other 10% in the second. There are several papers on the subject that show this. The third pass might recover 1% or so, but the volume of solvent will end up diluting your filtrate and 1% is insignificant compared to the other losses and what you would probably lose screwing around with a third pass. i.e. the added evaporation time due to the additional volume will decompose more actives than you could gain from it.
> could he get away with smaller volumes
I would use around twice the volume in solvent as of the powder for the first extraction and just enough to cover it in the next.
> Is extracting always going to waste some "active ingredients", No matter how well it is done.?
Depends how it's done. Done with the best methods you should be able to recover all the actives. That's beyond any descriptions I've seen though. Exposing them to reaction in solution with all the enzymes, oxidizers, bases, air, etc. is sure to degrade them to an extent.
Loss to remaining unextracted actives in the solids should be very minimal.
> In my reading it looks like methanol gets more out
I don't think so. Psilocybin is reported to be soluble in only 20 parts boiling water, but 120 parts boiling methanol. Methanol is a good solvent, but only slightly better than ethanol.
Psilocin is slightly soluble in water and methanol extraction is reported to be extremely inefficient regardless of water content. 70% ethanol is reported as the optimum extraction solvent.
Here are some quotes...
"The techniques that use methanol co-extract other compounds such as urea, ergosterol, ergosteral peroxide, á,á-trehalose, baeocystin, and norbaeocystin."
"...acetic acid is an excellent solvent for this purpose, because both compounds are very soluble in acetic acid and very little of other interfering substances are extracted..."
"In general, methanolic extraction procedures are very time consuming. Most procedures either involve an “overnight” extraction or heating. In addition, methanolic extractions of psilocybe mushrooms usually co-extract other indolic compounds (and other methanol soluble components), some of which can mask the psilocyn and psilocybin peaks in GC or GC/MS analyses."
"...acetic acid facilitated extraction of psilocyn from mushrooms is more rapid and convenient versus traditional methanolic extraction procedures, which require long time frames or potentially destructive heating."
"In a more refined method, the mushrooms are extracted with methanol, and the co-extracted sugars then precipitated with acetone; the resulting solution is concentrated prior to analysis by GC/MS."
Anyways... There has been some discussion about precipitates and if they are active or not. I think what is happening is that some people are trying to crystallize actives from solution, but what they are getting is the first crude precipitates that drop out of solution. This is just junk. IMHO very few people here would be able to crystallize actives out of solution. The only realistic method is to evap. to dryness and get a crude extract, or leave it as a tincture.
I looked at some old notes of mine from way back... I noted that upon macerating a sample in water the solution immediately turned a deep blue. The blue oxidation product could be turned clear again by adding a small amount of ascorbic acid (vitamin C). If allowed to stand the blue solution would form two miscible layers, with the blue product floating to the top. Within a day or so the blue would turn mostly black and a precipitate would form. IMO this is just bio-gunk. That is what people are getting. It forms without any concentration of the solution and it would surely be the first to precipitate out when doing an aqueous extraction.
Maybe someone can do some experiments along this line, but one idea I had was that the aqueous extract could be protected from oxidation by ascorbic acid, the precipitate could be allowed to form and then be filtered out. Then the product could be concentrated and would be free of the bio-gunk, thus much more pure.
The ascorbic acid should be added before any water or solvent.
Everyone seems so worried about the oxidation, so why not use a tiny bit of a healthy antioxidant like vitamin C? Worst case you end up with a tiny bit of a vitamin in your product.
Seriously somebody do some experiments with this. I've been pushing it for years.
Just mash up a mushie in water and watch how deep blue it becomes, then add the tiniest amount of vitamin C and you'll be amazed, just like I was when I discovered it way back when. Nobody has seemed all that interested in it though.
-FF
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UnderNose
all out of bubble gum
Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 1,612
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: fastfred]
#6181315 - 10/18/06 04:49 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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"The blue oxidation product could be turned clear again by adding a small amount of ascorbic acid (vitamin C).
Seriously somebody do some experiments with this. I've been pushing it for years."
Thats quite interesting FF, I also noticed this a while back when putting lemon juice on fresh diced chunks of shroom that I was preparing for a tea.
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LAGM 2.022
Edited by UnderNose (10/26/06 11:17 PM)
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fastfred
Old Hand
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: UnderNose]
#6185069 - 10/19/06 03:55 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do think ascorbic acid would be good to use in an extraction. It prevents and even reverses the bluing reaction. I've wondered for a long time if it actually reduces the blue product back to it's original state or if it just reduces it to another (non blue) product.
> Also what do you know about Methylated spirits?
I like it as a general solvent. Methanol and ethanol are pretty similar in their properties, so methylated spirits or denatured alcohol can be used in place of anhydrous ethanol in most instances. One thing you have to remember is that methanol is poisonous! It will cause blindness. So all of the methanol must be removed if the product is going to be ingested.
Luckily it's easy to do so. Just evaporate to dryness. Methanol evaporates well, so it should be no problem.
You should know that psilocybin is NOT very soluble in anhydrous alcohol. It's also not very good for psilocin. Conflicting info has been reported, but it has been reported that 70% ethanol (140 proof) is the optimal mixture for extraction. I think way too much has been made of minimizing the water content. That's probably because most available alcohol is 100 proof or less. I would think that bacardi 151 (151 proof) would work great and it's available pretty much everywhere.
Bacardi 151 tastes alright and it's great for flaming shots!
I think extraction with 100 proof or better alcohol should work fine and be the best way to go. I think most of the loss comes from the reaction and oxidation while in solution. The solution turns blue immediately upon breaking up fruits in it and to me this says that you're losing product right off the bat just from dissolving it in solution.
When psilocybin is dissolved enzymes (phosphatases) present in the tissue dephosphorylate it into psilocin. Psilocin is not stable and rapidly oxidizes. It's especially unstable in basic solutions.
I think adding ascorbic acid would really help with the extraction for several reasons.
#1 It prevents the oxidation of psilocin! If I had to extract an easily oxidized substance the obvious solution is to add an antioxidant like ascorbic acid.
#2 Psilocin (and probably psilocybin) is unstable in basic (alkaline) solutions! Adding ascorbic acid lowers the pH and should help protect the actives for that reason. This is a good reason why acetic acid (vinegar) is a good solvent.
#3 A lower pH should increase the solubility of the actives in the solution. That's another possible reason why acetic acid works well. In basic solutions the actives become less soluble in polar solvents and more soluble in nonpolar solvents. This fact is used in standard acid-base extractions, which are well documented for psilocin.
#4 When you evaporate the solvent the ascorbic acid will be present in the final extract, so it will continue to protect the product. Many people suggest leaving the product as a tincture to avoid the final product being directly exposed to air, which tends to oxidize it fairly rapidly. With ascorbic acid present in the product it should help protect it and might work well enough to make oxidation a non-issue.
#5 Vitamin C is good for you! Many manufacturers use it as a preservative in food products. You can even get a product called fruitfresh (basically vit C + sugar) which prevents the oxidation (browning) of fruit. I don't suggest using fruitfresh though because it contains a lot of sugar, which makes evaporation harder and will dilute the product.
Other notes...
Fairly pure ascorbic acid can be bought at a reasonable price. I found some at a health food store. They had it in bulk and it was in nice white crystals, so I imagine it's pretty pure.
It only takes a tiny bit of ascorbic acid to prevent or reverse the bluing reaction. Or you might want to add a bit more to adjust the pH to your liking. I suggest trying it in a test tube just to see how small of an amount it takes. Just add it a tiny bit at a time then shake to see what a small amount it takes.
I don't think ascorbic acid will prevent the phosphatases from dephosphorylating the psilocybin. It's been suggested that you could use EDTA to inactivate the enzymes and thus preserve the psilocybin. Phosphatases require 2-3 metal ions to work and EDTA chelates the metal ions from the solution causing the enzymes to be inactivated. There is published research indicating that EDTA is indeed effective at inactivating phosphatases. This is another great idea that doesn't seem to have been tried yet. EDTA is also a safe and widely used food preservative.
As far as actually using the ascorbic acid I would suggest adding it to the solvent first, before adding the solids that you want to extract from. By the time you could add it to the solution, it would already be pretty blue, so that's why I would add it to the solvent first.
-FF
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 MindRyd
Stranger
Registered: 09/28/06
Posts: 12
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: fastfred]  1
#6188374 - 10/19/06 10:22 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
acetic acid is an excellent solvent for this purpose, because both compounds are very soluble in acetic acid and very little of other interfering substances are extracted
Hmm vinegar??? Might make an interesting italian salad dressing.
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Shnezbit
Psycho-naught
Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 1,202
Loc: The Threshold.
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: MindRyd]
#6192769 - 10/20/06 10:23 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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i have an extraction of about 3 ounces in grain alcohol, adds up to about 1cup. i was wondering can i keep using this same liquid and pur it on a few more ounces of dried powdre, extract that and then do it again and again over time to more and more fresh dried powdre, or is there a limit to how many times this liquid can continue to absorb?
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UnderNose
all out of bubble gum
Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 1,612
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: Shnezbit]
#6193256 - 10/21/06 12:39 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your solvent will have a limit to how much it can hold before "stuff" starts precipitating out.
Other more experienced people have said it is best to stop before this happens.
This will happen if you reduce/evaporate the solvent to the point where there is more "stuff" than the solvent can hold.
I am also assuming that if you use a solvent that has been saturated with "stuff" to this point it would no longer be an affective solvent.
Probably best to keep that first extract separate, Put it in the freezer.
Then do another with fresh alcohol add them together & reduce until just before you get precipitates
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LAGM 2.022
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Shnezbit
Psycho-naught
Registered: 09/30/04
Posts: 1,202
Loc: The Threshold.
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: UnderNose]
#6193904 - 10/21/06 09:52 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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ok cool undernose, i appreciate your response.
i think thats what ill do when i have an overabundance of matter from my experiments with this hobby, combine extracts and reduce.
thanks for the advice.
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rawtoxic
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 2,097
Loc: smokey mountains
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: all you need to know about psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: Shnezbit]
#6193922 - 10/21/06 10:07 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Here is a post regarding obtaining Everclear right here:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5077529
Also I extract using ISO in a crock pot and make 'mushroom goo' we call it.
I know everyones going to talk shit, because no one here really prefers extracts of mushrooms but I personally enjoy having them and it's no problem getting a small chunk of this goo ANYWHERE.
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deeptraveller
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 102
Loc: russia
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Re: all you need to know about psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: rawtoxic]
#6194847 - 10/21/06 05:07 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I from russia and it's not clear for me that you mean a word "everclear" ....explain me please that this such(clean c2h5oh or any crystals?)
I shall soon read this topic..... It would be desirable to join conversation (I here for this purpose)
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we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?
Edited by deeptraveller (10/21/06 05:08 PM)
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shirley knott
not my real name
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 9,105
Loc: London 
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: all you need to know about psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: deeptraveller]
#6194859 - 10/21/06 05:11 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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it's strong liquor, 95% ethanol by volume or 190 proof
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buh
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shirley knott
not my real name
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 9,105
Loc: London
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6194871 - 10/21/06 05:15 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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okay, i'm continuing a thread of eric's extraction attempt here
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buh
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deeptraveller
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 102
Loc: russia
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: shirley knott]
#6196548 - 10/22/06 03:26 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Many thanks! that you support me..... I read all very attentively (and now I can't understand only some word-combinations, but as a whole - all is clear)...
I am very glad that could to find interesting dialogue (at Russian forums it is or a secret or anybody is simple nothing knows.... but most likely it is a secret)
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we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?
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shirley knott
not my real name
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 9,105
Loc: London
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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 Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6197643 - 10/22/06 12:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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link
i'm hoping someone will see this in the psychedelic experience forum that can tell me why it precipitated bigstyle all at once when i combined the two extraction fluids. the first pass was probably 90% ethanol by volume (i added some of the rum to the lab ethanol), the second only 63% (pure rum) so i'm guessing it's to do with that.
now what? did i balls it up by precipitating that creamy yellow stuff? is that goodies or not? should i filter and test it, filter and chuck it, or try to somehow get it to redissolve?
  
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buh
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deeptraveller
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 102
Loc: russia
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: shirley knott]
#6198068 - 10/22/06 02:45 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's necessary to be convinced that in a mushroom powder remained nothing....for this purpose there are special reactants which specify presence of indol's connections
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we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?
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deeptraveller
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 102
Loc: russia
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: deeptraveller]
#6198193 - 10/22/06 03:22 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I met on the Internet clause{article} that 95 % ethanol is not effective for extraction psilocybin / psilocin from mushrooms(Efficiency = 0 it's bosh?)
Also, if to use 70% ethanol that extraction will be more good, but thus enzymes will be taken (it more actually for P.cubensis) which force to break up pcylocin.
p\s\Prompt me please? I have correctly understood that I must work only with clean ethanol(i have it) for achievement of the best result?
p\p\s\shirley knott what you means "190 proof"(I translate a word proof as the "Incontestable fact"....thus the sense vanishes)...and why you use liquor if you have clean ethanol?
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we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?
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Feelers
Anti-Myth-Rhythm-Rock-Shocker
Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 1,806
Loc: Land of Oz
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: deeptraveller]
#6199856 - 10/22/06 10:24 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hey deep traveller- "proof" does mean incontestable fact, however in America (and elsewhere) it is also a measure of alcohol content. To convert % alcohol into proof, you double it.
Therefore 70% ethanol x2 = 140 proof.
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deeptraveller
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 102
Loc: russia
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: Feelers]
#6200499 - 10/23/06 02:28 AM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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Many thanks for explanations Feelers! For me it was the big riddle.
Probably, all already saw this information.... what you think about it:
http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=10410
And about that 140 proof is better for extraction than 190 proof?
(Or 95 % ethanol allow to not take enzymes from mushroom bodies, which can destroy pcilocybin)
p\s\very pity that later then 13 years after first extraction the efficiency of solvent is subject to doubt...probably it just for me?
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we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?
Edited by deeptraveller (10/23/06 02:51 AM)
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deeptraveller
Stranger
Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 102
Loc: russia
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Re: psilocybin / psilocin extraction. [Re: deeptraveller]
#6202020 - 10/23/06 02:23 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have understood... now it is clear for me(solubility and efficiency are different things)
psilocybin it is insoluble in C2H5OH is well instead of poorly (extraction has no common with solubility)
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we makes only that we makes...... this is very amusing idea if you under mushrooms_try this if you are not afraid
I have told it or have thought?
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shirley knott
not my real name
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 9,105
Loc: London
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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(psilocybin / psilocin extraction) - sediment tested: can be discarded [Re: shirley knott]
#6202031 - 10/23/06 02:26 PM (16 years, 7 months ago) |
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that creamy yellow stuff - is that goodies or not? should i filter and test it, filter and chuck it, or try to somehow get it to redissolve?
i filtered and bioassayed the sediment - nothing good was contained in it. therefore the liquid will be filtered and the orange goop discarded before reducing the volume in a double boiler. i'll be sure to take pics.
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buh
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