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InvisibleMr. G
journeyman
Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 46
Loc: Treasure Coast
Will the real "Pan Cyan" please stand up?
    #616898 - 04/24/02 12:52 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Which is which? Sporeworks? Anyone? These mushrooms are different, but they are supposed to be the same family and species, IDENTICAL. It is not a regional diversification. These both grow wild in south Florida. Mr.G noticed these vendors were selling two differnt mushrooms internally and not realizing it before! Mr.G always thought that the "coplandia" was different for this reason perhaps? when he first came back on the web a couple of months ago he started studying this difference as he noticed immediately. he has made no final judgement yet and is curious himself. Mr.G calls the whiter one the "true" Pan Cyan. He has no idea what the other is and can not find spores that match it. Both are highly potent. The whiter mushroom being the more common isolation. The brown was found on MJ's homepage as a "Coplandia Cyanescen" or something very similar (he is nit picky about spelling, we think he should stick to it!). The former is a "LBM" please DO NOT pick anything even closly resembling "LBM's" PLEASE?. It does indeed have a black blue spore print and is indeed a Panaeolous according to Mr.G. It has a red stem and brusises blue only at base. The mycelium is always very visable for the first 1/4" to maybe a 1/2" at the very tip of base if carefully picked. The grass sticks to the tip and it grows on both compost AND directly on pies. It will grow on rotten dung and composted straw etc while the whiter usually is always on manure. It is a highly potent mushroom. We are not out to throw stones we just want to know what the hell it is! Why have none of these experienced myclogist ever noticed they are selling two differnt mushrooms before? Experts? No one has ever noticed before MR.G? FM Farms staff is puzzled and Mr.G won't say? help@fmfarms.com





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"Mr.G with a rose, in and out of the garden goes, country gharden in the wind and the rain whereever he goes the people all complain!"
"The Grateful Dead" Thanks boys, I miss you Jerry!
Did it hurt that much?


Edited by Thor (04/24/02 03:21 AM)


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Will the real "Pan Cyan" please stand up? [Re: Mr. G]
    #616904 - 04/24/02 01:23 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

MushyMay wonders if there is supposed to be a pic?


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
I've wondered the same thing. [Re: Mr. G]
    #626081 - 05/10/02 06:23 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I'm awaiting the "Magic Mushrooms of Hawaii" book I just ordered, but I'm also confused about just what kind of mushroom(s) I'm picking. I've only picked mushrooms in pastures between Kualoa and Sunset. What are they, Pan cyanescens? Copelandia? Somewhere on this site it suggests that the two different types are actually the same strain, "following different taxonomies."

And then I saw a picture of some "PES Hawaiian" mushrooms in the photo gallery, and they don't look anything I've seen over here. What is the deal?

hongomon


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InvisibleZen Peddler
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
Re: Will the real "Pan Cyan" please stand up? [Re: Mr. G]
    #626206 - 05/10/02 11:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

maybe MrG should check the spores under a microscope to discover that they are both indeed Copelandia Cyanescens


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InvisibleRoadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
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Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,598
Loc: Snoqualmie, Wa.
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Re: I've wondered the same thing. [Re: hongomon]
    #626211 - 05/10/02 11:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

In reply to:

And then I saw a picture of some "PES Hawaiian" mushrooms in the photo gallery, and they don't look anything I've seen over here. What is the deal?




PES Hawaiians aren't from Hawaii.
PES was a company based out of Hawaii.....they are out of business now.
They just named the strain....Hawaiian.

hope that helps a little.



--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: I've wondered the same thing. [Re: Roadkill]
    #626660 - 05/11/02 10:55 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

That helps a lot!

hongomon


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Anonymous

Re: Will the real "Pan Cyan" please stand up? [Re: Mr. G]
    #627889 - 05/12/02 03:58 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Pan. cyanescens and Cop. cyanescens are the same mushroom. The lumpers will call them Pan. cyanescens, the splitters will call them Cop. cyanescens.

If you look at all the mushrooms refered to as Pan. cyanescens or Cop. cyanescens microscopically, they are identical. Macroscopically, you will see great variability based on substrate composition, and ENVIRONMENT(geography/season). There are lots of Pan./Cop. cyanescens varieties. They look very different macroscopically on similar agar media composition, and similar fruiting substrates. They all look the same microscopically.

Pan. tropicalis or Cop. tropicalis also looks similar macroscopically to the Pan/Cop. cyanescens, and microscopically. Exception microscopically is they are PRIMARILY 2-spored versus four spored, and have internally granulated spores. They have a completely different mating system then Cop/Pan cyanescens. Each spore can contain both haploid nuclei within the spore. No mating is necessary. Anastomosis between dikaryons results in more vigourous fruiting strains.

Pan/Cop. cambodginiensis is a third distinct species from the two above. It is seperated by spore size, pleurocystidia size, cheilocystidia size, and minor variances in it's macroscopic appearance. I.e., it remains darker then the other two species at maturity under humid conditions. Under dry conditions, macroscopically it looks just like a cyanescens.

Overall size range is slightly different between each of these three species. Both macroscopically and microscopically.

A fourth species Pan./Cop. bispora resembles the cyanescens complex macroscopically, and microscopically, but is Exclusively 2-spored and thus Homothalic in it's mating strategy. Similar to tropicalis in this regard, but it's spores lack the internal granulations(I would assume).

Mr.G I don't doubt you have several Strains of cyanescens growing in the various fields you pick. Seasonal, substrate variation has probably caused various strains to emerge from any original Species that was introduced. The same goes for the cubensis all over the state of Florida. The ones that grow on the East coast are a tad different then the ones that grow on the west coast. both of these are a tad bit different then the ones that grow in middle Florida(Gainesville).
Even within the same Field, during different times of the year, I have noticed variability between cubensis.(most of which was due to environmental stimuli), but not all of it. I have isolated different STRAINS growing in Jonesville, Micanopy, and Gainesville. Three places seperated by vary little distance. I have3 found ones that produce abundant small mushrooms that continuosly flush, and others that grow large and have distinct flushes. They looked different at maturity.

I think the variability is STRAIN and not Species between your COP/Pan finds.

This has been driving me nuts for a good deal of time. I have looked at the spores of your tropicalis, the cyanescens, and the cambodginiensis, under a microscope and they all seem to be different. I have not yet looked at the cystidia , but intend to shortly. After doing this, I will definetly be trying to determine compatibility between the three SPECIES being circulated on the OMC. I am very curious as to the outcome, and trying to put an end to this CONFUSION.
I can say this with absolute certainty, the cyanescens complex is VAST. Each and every strain(geographic) is different on nutrient agar. They LOOK different. So do each of the three species.

A cop. cyans growing on stable manure in the winter is gonna look different from the same Cop. cyans growing on cow manure in the spring. The differences in substrate alone will cause some variance, but even more so, the TEMP/HUMIDITY differences will have great influence.

I posted pictures of the cambodginiensis that is in circulation in the OMC. Some were grown in high humidity at warmer temps, and some were grown in lower humidity at cooler temps. THEY LOOKED LIKE DIFFERENT MUSHROOMS growing on the same substrate.

The pictures are around here somewhere. Look up cambodginiensis in the search forum.

All the species information came from Stametes and Arora, and the research they are quoting. Just Read their books carefully, or the actual journal articles they are refrencing.
MJ of course is the source of some of the information they are quoting, so disputing him, on information he has contributed, would be a bit pointless.

I would be happy to view any and all STRAINS/SPECIES spores you have, under a scope. Anything else would take some time, because spores are not the only thing you need to ID. Cystidia and eventually compatibility studies would be required, and that takes TIME.

The majority of people on the OMC could care less. If it looks different that is good enough for them. They would be absolutely right. No one here is publishing in a scientific journal, with exception to MJ. At least not openly stating so. I certainly am not, and my interest is purely for interest sake. It would be nice to KNOW what we are in possesion of, but they only way to KNOW is to find out yourself, or listen to those that have. Of course you have to believe them!!!!!!




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OfflineWorkmanV
Psilocybe Microscopist
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 3,492
Loc: Washington, USA
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Re: Will the real "Pan Cyan" please stand up? [Re: ]
    #628728 - 05/13/02 07:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Excellent post Teonan, as always.


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