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Hanky
wiffle bat.
Registered: 08/30/03
Posts: 56,993
Loc: Great Southern Land.
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6157189 - 10/11/06 06:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Some people.
-------------------- Coaster is an idiot... [quote]Coaster said: but i thnk everything thats pure is white? [/quote]
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nightkrawler
explorer
Registered: 06/18/04
Posts: 2,980
Loc: new england
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6157357 - 10/11/06 08:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i fully realize that it's a deterent, but i think if they're sitting around for awhile, someone further on down the line is going to use one. maybe not in our lifetime, but i think it would be bound to happen.
maybe a certain country would sell one to a terrorist group. maybe a terrorist group would gain power in a certain country.
if you play with fire you get burned.
what it all comes down to is that niteowl, you basically have more faith in people than i do. i have faith in people as a whole, and even most individuals, but one or two individuals, or radical organizations, could fuck everything up for everybody if they have access to nukes.
-------------------- Not all who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6158534 - 10/11/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: If three houses on your block suddenly bought a tank and placed it in their front yard. Then a week later claimed that no one else on the block could have a tank in their front yard.....wouldn't you want to have a tank also.......if for no other reason than to deter the other neighbors from attacking you?
This is no different than having a nuke..........no different at all.
Except that this completely fails to address my argument about the proliferation of nuclear weapons leading to a reduction in their cost and an increase in their availability.
As I've already stated, chemical weapons are less expensive and more available than nuclear weapons, and yet share their attributes of causing widespread indiscriminant death and rendering land unusable. There are clear examples of leaders who have deployed chemical weapons, knowing full well the results of their deployment.
The only thing separating chemical weapons and nuclear weapons right now is the cost differential. Nuclear weapons are very expensive, chemical weapons are not. Proliferation of nuclear weapons has the capacity to change that.
Please address this point rather than arguing a tangent I didn't bring up in the first place.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
#6158985 - 10/11/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said: Except that this completely fails to address my argument about the proliferation of nuclear weapons leading to a reduction in their cost and an increase in their availability.
What does this have to do with anything? It is an inevitable fact that if one nation has a nuke then other nations will want on also. Trying to keep them away from nations that want one, will NOT work. They will continue to make efforts to get one, regardless of what America wants. Either by making their own or trying to buy one. It is just a matter of time before nations that want a nuke get a nuke.
This is a fact that most people don't want to accept.
Quote:
As I've already stated, chemical weapons are less expensive and more available than nuclear weapons, and yet share their attributes of causing widespread indiscriminant death and rendering land unusable. There are clear examples of leaders who have deployed chemical weapons, knowing full well the results of their deployment.
The only thing separating chemical weapons and nuclear weapons right now is the cost differential. Nuclear weapons are very expensive, chemical weapons are not. Proliferation of nuclear weapons has the capacity to change that.
Please address this point rather than arguing a tangent I didn't bring up in the first place.
Your point is moot. It means nothing.
America should have thought more about the consequences of making (and then using) the bomb way back in the 1940's. They opened Pandoras Box and now it cant be closed again.
Trying to keep nukes to ourselves was the WORST idea since the creation of the nuke.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6159281 - 10/11/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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So you are of the opinion that the US should do nothing to try and keep the costs of nuclear arms high?
When we think other things are dangerous (cigarettes, for example) we tax them to keep the cost high. Why shouldn't we do the same for nuclear weapons in order to keep the costs high and encourage responsibility?
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
#6161057 - 10/12/06 05:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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You talk like America has the patent for nukes and the only way to get one is to bargain with the U.S.
Korea made a nuke without any assistance from the U.S.
How can America control the cost of nukes, on a global scale?????? They can't unless they start selling them. You are obviously against the U.S. selling nukes on the open market. So tell me Mr. Economist how is the U.S. supposed to keep the cost of nukes higher than they already are?
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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mr_kite
The Watcher
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
#6161076 - 10/12/06 05:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said: When we think other things are dangerous (cigarettes, for example) we tax them to keep the cost high. Why shouldn't we do the same for nuclear weapons in order to keep the costs high and encourage responsibility?
Oh dear. We are talking about a NUCLEAR BOMB, capable of destroying earth and all of life as we know it, not ciggarettes, capable of destroying an organism if used esxcessively over a long period of time.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,230
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6161103 - 10/12/06 06:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
What does this have to do with anything? It is an inevitable fact that if one nation has a nuke then other nations will want on also. Trying to keep them away from nations that want one, will NOT work.
If Al Quaida buys an Indonesian island, declares it a sovereign state and wants to buy five nukes, they should not be hindered in acquiring them?
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Asante]
#6161109 - 10/12/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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How are you going to stop them?
We couldn't stop Korea from "acquiring" one.
America has to realize that it doesn't have the right to dictate policy to other nations. This is what makes other nations hate America.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,230
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6161116 - 10/12/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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North Korea had to build one from scratch and then conduct a test. That gives the world ample warning.
Quote:
America has to realize that it doesn't have the right to dictate policy to other nations. This is what makes other nations hate America.
That and economic vampirism. The WTC wasn't just chosen as a high profile target, but also because it is the symbol of american trade, which in many developing nations is percieved as inherently unjust.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Asante]
#6161557 - 10/12/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: That and economic vampirism. The WTC wasn't just chosen as a high profile target, but also because it is the symbol of american trade, which in many developing nations is percieved as inherently unjust.
Exactly.
By bullying other nations with their military threats and economic power, pretty soon the whole world will be ready to go to war with America.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Asante]
#6161565 - 10/12/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
What does this have to do with anything? It is an inevitable fact that if one nation has a nuke then other nations will want on also. Trying to keep them away from nations that want one, will NOT work.
If Al Quaida buys an Indonesian island, declares it a sovereign state and wants to buy five nukes, they should not be hindered in acquiring them?
Well Al Quaida's intentions would be clear. N. Korea, little more blurry.
-------------------- "What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,230
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: barfightlard]
#6161585 - 10/12/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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But if you're going to sell nukes on the open market (hi echelon!) it really has to be an OPEN market, or else you're selectively proliferating nukes like the USA did for Israel (woops did I say that?) which is even worse than enforcing nonproliferation.
Still, I want the american nukes out of my country and I want my government to contract Urenco to make us nukes of our own to fit on the tomahawks of the Dutch armed forces. We've got 2 tons of purified plutonium, cast us 250 plutonium pits
If you see what happened to most notably Iraq, then its very understandable why North Korea want nukes. If NK ever uses a nuke China will come barging in and spank its bare ass. North Korea built that nuke so that the USA will negotiate instead of directly launch a military campaign which leaves their land in chaos and ruins.
If NK doesn't end up using or losing their nukes and with them manages a diplomatic solution instead of a military one, I not just am understanding, but actually am in favor of them having nukes.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Asante]
#6161608 - 10/12/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can understand NK wanting a nuke, but I don't think we would go over there unless we were directly attacked first. Vietname still is clear in many people's minds, and we don't want to be messing around in China's backyard without their permission.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6162569 - 10/12/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: How can America control the cost of nukes, on a global scale?????? They can't unless they start selling them. You are obviously against the U.S. selling nukes on the open market. So tell me Mr. Economist how is the U.S. supposed to keep the cost of nukes higher than they already are?
Clearly you don't follow the news...
America has obviously been VERY successful in keeping the cost of nuclear weapons high. Currently, the cost of developing a nuclear weapon includes international sanctions and a loss in political capital.
However, if America stopped trying, and those costs went away, nuclear weapons would proliferate, leading to increased availability and lowered costs. Furthermore, because nations don't want to risk sanctions and losses in political capital, they don't invest heavily in nuclear related industries, which has the effect of restricting supply and keeping monetary costs high as a result.
If America wants to keep nuclear weapons costs high (which, they obviously due because of the chemical weapons analogy which no one has refuted thus far), they just need to keep doing what they're already doing.
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
#6162809 - 10/12/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said: If America wants to keep nuclear weapons costs high (which, they obviously due because of the chemical weapons analogy which no one has refuted thus far), they just need to keep doing what they're already doing.
If America continues "doing what they're already doing", then it wont' be long before they have no supporters.........only enemies. Their policy didn't work against Korea. They have a nuke now despite Americas economic sanctions (bullying).
America needs to realize that it is not the ruler of the planet and can't dictate how other countries defend themselves. Which is why Korea wanted a nuke........to defend themselves from an American invasion.
{isn't it in their constitution "the right to bear arms"?......kinda hypocritical don't you think for them to tell other nations that they DON"T have the right to bear arms}
I will ask this question for the third time.......to anyone who dares to answer it.
Would America have been so quick to invade Afghanistan or Iraq if they knew that these countries had nukes?
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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frostbitten
Strange
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 325
Loc:
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6162838 - 10/12/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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the US is just being racist. the north koreans wont kill us if we dont bother them.
-------------------- my.web dev
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Cowgold
Bullshit
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 12,486
Loc: .
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: niteowl]
#6162932 - 10/12/06 04:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not even touching this...
Don't argue with a fool. He will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
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BlindLemon
waves
Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 628
Loc: so cal
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Phychotron]
#6162954 - 10/12/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phychotron said: I wonder how M*A*S*H 2 is gonna do... probably not as good as the first one...
HAHA
-------------------- Im a fucking spiral..
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: North Korea tests nuclear weapon [Re: Cowgold]
#6165104 - 10/13/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cowgold said: I'm not even touching this...
Please touch it........pretty please.......I like it when you touch it.
I understand why you couldn't debate the issue, and decided to bow out of the discussion..........you have no real argument to back up your point of view.
Parroting what you hear on TV makes it hard to back up your position, because you really don''t understand why you believe it.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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