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OfflineSquattingMarmot
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Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America”
    #6158596 - 10/11/06 04:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/

Keith did a great report tonight on what the recently passed Military Commissions Act of 2006 means to America and the Constitution.


--------------------
"In the United States anybody can be president. Thats the problem."

"The gray-haired douche bag, Barbara Bush, has a slogan: "Encourage your child to read every day." What she should be is encouraging children to question what they read every day."

- George Carlin


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InvisibleStroFun
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #6158836 - 10/11/06 05:24 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: StroFun]
    #6159746 - 10/11/06 10:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. Keith really does a great job of exposing the wrongs of the current administration.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: SquattingMarmot]
    #6162742 - 10/12/06 05:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

What a load of bull.

I've come to expect Olbermann to employ partisan name-calling, but in this segment he out-right lies. Interesting, because, and correct me if I'm wrong, his last segment was about putting a stop to lying.

The text of the military commissions act can be found here:
http://thomas.loc[dot]gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:2:./temp/~c109fo53Sd::

If you scroll down to section 7 of the Bill, it states:
"SEC. 7. HABEAS CORPUS MATTERS.

(a) In General- Section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, is amended by striking both the subsection (e) added by section 1005(e)(1) of Public Law 109-148 (119 Stat. 2742) and the subsection (e) added by added by section 1405(e)(1) of Public Law 109-163 (119 Stat. 3477) and inserting the following new subsection (e):

`(e)(1) No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.

`(2) Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.'.

(b) Effective Date- The amendment made by subsection (a) shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply to all cases, without exception, pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act which relate to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of detention of an alien detained by the United States since September 11, 2001."

So, the Bill only removes habeas corpus protections from non-citizens, i.e. aliens. Thus, when Olbermann is claiming that the bill "kills habeas corpus" he's flat out lying.

Most of the claims about the death of habeas corpus refer to this section of the bill:

"Sec. 950v. Crimes triable by military commissions...

`(26) WRONGFULLY AIDING THE ENEMY- Any person subject to this chapter who, in breach of an allegiance or duty to the United States, knowingly and intentionally aids an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished as a military commission under this chapter may direct."

However, being tried by a military commission DOES NOT MEAN you lose habeas corpus protections. If it did, then the bill would not need an additional clause that explicitly takes away the protection of habeas corpus from aliens.

I like how Olbermann took the time to look up the Constitution, but not the actual Military Commissions Act.

If he did, then he's lying by commission instead of ommission, which is even more irresponsible.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Economist]
    #6162851 - 10/12/06 06:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

He may or may not have known that the habeas corpus revocations only applied to aliens, but he is right to be concerned. Even alarmed.

Sooner or later the administration will exploit fear to ensure that habeas corpus no longer applies to residents of the United States. They are just chipping away at it bit by bit. First it will be applied to unpopular groups and then as people gradually accept it the right will be taken from dissenters and anyone but Bush bootlickers.



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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: zorbman]
    #6163657 - 10/12/06 10:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

He may or may not have known that the habeas corpus revocations only applied to aliens




I would hope that he read the act before reporting on it. Maybe that's asking too much? :smirk:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Redstorm]
    #6163681 - 10/12/06 10:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

He's a ratings whore. That shit only lasts for so long. Paris Hilton's shelf life is rapidly running out. Keith Olberman, the Paris Hilton of cable commentary. Kind of poetic, isn't it?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6163686 - 10/12/06 10:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Anyone on a for-profit television program is a ratings whore. It's kind of silly to think otherwise.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Redstorm]
    #6163700 - 10/12/06 10:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think most of them just say what they think and don't go over the top into lunatic ravings like he has. Either their show is good or it isn't. Olberman, in a desperate grab for ratings (he had none before) has jumped the shark. Paris Hilton. As in nullis pretii.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6163703 - 10/12/06 10:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

He's a lunatic, but it grabs the ratings. Childish insults and hysterical ranting works on both sides of the aisle.


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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Redstorm]
    #6163779 - 10/12/06 10:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I would hope that he read the act before reporting on it. Maybe that's asking too much?

I would hope so also but calling him a liar is making an assumption.

On a little show like that maybe his researchers are poorly paid?  :grin:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (10/13/06 01:42 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Economist]
    #6164071 - 10/13/06 12:02 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
What a load of bull.

...when Olbermann is claiming that the bill "kills habeas corpus" he's flat out lying.

I like how Olbermann took the time to look up the Constitution, but not the actual Military Commissions Act.




Section 1 of the 14th amendment is as follows:

"Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of CITIZENS OF THE UNTIED STATES; nor shall any state deprive ANY PERSON of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to ANY PERSON within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The first part applies to "citizens of the United States, and the latter part applies to "any person".


It's just plain immoral to lock someone up without allowing them to defend themselves, which I imagine is why the habeas corpus was important enough to put in the Constitution in the first place. You risk locking up innocent people. The Constitution states, "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it." We certainly aren't at a point where we require it. Besides, if you are denied habeas corpus, how do you use "US citizen" as a defense? After all, you wouldn't get to defend yourself.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6164148 - 10/13/06 12:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

nor shall any state deprive ANY PERSON of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to ANY PERSON within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.




unfortunately..that only applies to the state govts and not to king george...according to the strict wording of the amendment..the federal govt is still free to deny equal protection...


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6165388 - 10/13/06 12:50 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The other bit you're leaving out is "due process of law".

Due process of law means that there needs to be a law on the books that is followed. The Military Commissions Act is a law, that may be signed on to the books, that will be followed. Due process of law does not mean habeas corpus rights, again if it did there wouldn't be a need to mention both.

The rules of evidence, miranda rights, etc. None of these appear in the Constitution, but they have all been found to be a part of "due process of law" either because they were written that way, or because the Supreme Court set a precedent which included them. Congress has the power to change the due process of law, and they are doing so via the military commissions act.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Economist]
    #6165909 - 10/13/06 03:14 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

im no lawyer..but im more than a little skeptical of your definition of "due process of law"...but even if it is correct..the constitution nevertheless forbids congress from drafting a writ of attainder..which arguably includes the MCA...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6165979 - 10/13/06 03:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
im no lawyer..but im more than a little skeptical of your definition of "due process of law"...



I'd love to debate this. I'll start with my source, the Supreme Court decision in Hamdi v Rumsfeld:

Justices O'Connor, Rehnquist, Breyer and Kennedy wrote the plurality opinion (in whole or in part) and stated that Due Process protections meant that Hamdi must be let known what he is charged with and have a meaningful opportunity to challenge his detention. They then said the method of this challenge could be decided by congress.

Justices Souter and Ginsburg agreed with the due-process part of the plurality decisions.

Justice Thomas completely agreed with the Federal Government.

Justices Scalia and Stevens both agreed that due process should include habeas corpus protections. However, as you can see, they were in the clear minority.

For a summary of this decision, you can go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld#The_Court.27s_opinions
and for the decision itself, you can go here:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-6696.ZS.html

So, the Supreme Court agrees with me 7-2 that Due Process can be defined by Congress.

Can you provide arguments to the contrary?

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
the constitution nevertheless forbids congress from drafting a writ of attainder..which arguably includes the MCA...



That would be some argument, since the a bill of attainder defines someone as guilty without benefit of a trial, and the entire point of the MCA is to establish the method of trial.

You may not agree with the method of trial outlined in the MCA, but that doesn't make it a bill of attainder, which wouldn't allow for a trial in the first place.

Oh, and for your own reference: I'm not an "apologist for fascism," I just think it's important that people show truth in public debate. I don't agree with the MCA, I think the criminal justice system would have worked out fine. That said, I also think it's important not to show Bush-esque hypocricy through purposeful mischaracterization and misrepresentation in public debate. Clearly you disagree.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Economist]
    #6166378 - 10/13/06 06:16 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Justices O'Connor, Rehnquist, Breyer and Kennedy wrote the plurality opinion (in whole or in part) and stated that Due Process protections meant that Hamdi must be let known what he is charged with and have a meaningful opportunity to challenge his detention. They then said the method of this challenge could be decided by congress.




so the question is whether or not the method decided by congress meets the requirement that a prisoner is "let known what he is charged with and have a meaningful opportunity to challenge his detention"...on the surface..the answer would appear to be a resounding NO..since under the MCA..a prisoner may be held indefinitely without ever being provided that challenge before any court or tribunal ..

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:4:./temp/~c109FqwtZF::

Quote:

[VII.7.a.2]Except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) of section 1005(e) of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (10 U.S.C. 801 note), no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any other action against the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial, or conditions of confinement of an alien who is or was detained by the United States and has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.




and you may be "awaiting such determination" until you die...and for those prisoners who have been determined to be UECs by a CSRT..10 USC 801 provides that they may challenge the CSRTs decision in the DC court of appeals and the SCOTUS..but according to the definition of a UEC under I.948.a.1.ii..having been determined to be a UEC by the CSRT as a "competent tribunal"..no such appeal is possible..since that person is guilty by definition below ..

Quote:

(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means--

`(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

`(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense.




some would argue that the CRSTs are a valid vehicle for due process..others..including sen arlen specter..would beg to differ...but assuming that the CSRTs do constitute valid due process..only 10 out of 450 prisoners at guantanamo have even had a CSRT...the balance (~98%) fall under the "awaiting such determination" clause...and pushing all legal formalities aside..if you can be arrested and imprisoned under torture for life without so much as a paltry CSRT..then it is necessarily a presumption of guilt...and while not required by the MCA..the attainder is nonetheless allowed and encouraged under the MCA...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6166769 - 10/13/06 08:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

..since under the MCA..a prisoner may be held indefinitely without ever being provided that challenge before any court or tribunal ..




Incorrect. You will note that the section you quote refers specifically to alien detainees. Nowhere does it state they may be held indefinitely. As a matter of fact -- as has been the case with hundreds of detainees -- if the enemy combatant review board determines they are not in fact combatants, they are released.

Quote:

some would argue that the CRSTs are a valid vehicle for due process..




Rational people would, yes.

Quote:

.only 10 out of 450 prisoners at guantanamo have even had a CSRT...




Bullshit. Worse, you KNOW that is bullshit, as it has been noted several times in this forum -- with supporting links -- that EVERY detainee currently at Gitmo has in fact been determined by tribunal to be an enemy combatant. Not all of them have been determined to be unlawful enemy combatants, true. But so what?

Quote:

.if you can be arrested and imprisoned under torture for life without so much as a paltry CSRT..then it is necessarily a presumption of guilt...and while not required by the MCA..the attainder is nonetheless allowed and encouraged under the MCA...




Nowhere does it say they may be tortured. Nowhere does it say for life.

All of this is irrelevant to the fact -- and yes, dear Anna, it is a FACT -- that due process of law as determined by Congress is being followed. You may not LIKE the process Congress has determined is appropriate, but like it or not, it is lawmakers (i.e. Congress) who bear the responsibility for setting out that process.




Phred


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Phred]
    #6167050 - 10/13/06 10:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

..since under the MCA..a prisoner may be held indefinitely without ever being provided that challenge before any court or tribunal ..




Incorrect. You will note that the section you quote refers specifically to alien detainees. Nowhere does it state they may be held indefinitely.







and nowhere does it state that a prisoner must be given a CRST hearing within any given time frame either...and without such a requirement..they could be "awaiting such determination"..without a day in court..until they die...

Quote:

Quote:

some would argue that the CRSTs are a valid vehicle for due process..




Rational people would, yes.




arlen specter doesnt think so..and hes' no liberal moonbat either...

Quote:

Quote:

.only 10 out of 450 prisoners at guantanamo have even had a CSRT...




Bullshit. Worse, you KNOW that is bullshit, as it has been noted several times in this forum -- with supporting links -- that EVERY detainee currently at Gitmo has in fact been determined by tribunal to be an enemy combatant. Not all of them have been determined to be unlawful enemy combatants, true. But so what?




it looks like i was wrong...the gitmo group have had their CSRTs...the figure of 10/450 is the number who have been charged with a crime...but those who have not been so charged..whether or not they have been found to be UECs by a CSRT..may still be held for life without a chance to defend themselves at a tribunal...

Quote:

Quote:

if you can be arrested and imprisoned under torture for life without so much as a paltry CSRT..then it is necessarily a presumption of guilt...and while not required by the MCA..the attainder is nonetheless allowed and encouraged under the MCA...




Nowhere does it say they may be tortured. Nowhere does it say for life.




ive already explained the for life part above...and its beneath pathetic that you should try to draw a difference between explicitly legalizing torture vs merely decriminalizing it ..the MCA does say that torture is illegal..but again section VII precludes enforcement of the prohibition in a court...its illegal to smoke a joint in amsterdam too..just like torture is illegal under the MCA...

Quote:

All of this is irrelevant to the fact -- and yes, dear Anna, it is a FACT -- that due process of law as determined by Congress is being followed. You may not LIKE the process Congress has determined is appropriate, but like it or not, it is lawmakers (i.e. Congress) who bear the responsibility for setting out that process.




in this case..congress has determined that appropriate due process is zero...and if what you say is true..then whats to stop congress from reaching the same determination in every case..for any person..citizen and noncitizen alike?...ultimately it will be left to the SCOTUS (and fortunately not phred) to answer this question..but im still curious about answers from different members of the audience...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America” [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6167272 - 10/13/06 11:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

and nowhere does it state that a prisoner must be given a CRST hearing within any given time frame either...and without such a requirement..they could be "awaiting such determination"..without a day in court..until they die...




Uh huh. Please name for us a single detainee who has yet to receive a review by tribunal determining whether or not he is an enemy combatant.

Quote:

arlen specter doesnt think so..




I said RATIONAL people. Specter has demonstrated amply over the years he doesn't fit this definition. Specter is an opportunistic, preening political hack.

Quote:

...but those who have not been so charged..whether or not they have been found to be UECs by a CSRT..may still be held for life without a chance to defend themselves at a tribunal...




Still having difficulty with the whole prisoner of war paradigm, I see. When hostilities cease, they will be released. If they die before hostilities cease, too bad. And as you are well aware, dozens (perhaps hundreds by now) HAVE been released even though hostilities are ongoing. Over two dozen of those released are KNOWN to have immediately returned to the battlefield. For all we know the majority have.

Quote:

...and its beneath pathetic that you should try to draw a difference between explicitly legalizing torture vs merely decriminalizing it ..




You haven't the faintest clue what you are talking about. Torture hasn't been decriminalized. Your problem is the same as that of so many critics who stretch the definition of "torture" to the point of absurdity.

Quote:

in this case..congress has determined that appropriate due process is zero..




Bullshit. There is in fact due process. It's just that you don't like the process, so you whine that there is none. Take a reality pill.




Phred


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