Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds UK
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #616927 - 04/24/02 12:03 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, it does seem like the definition of ego is getting mixed up. Is it 1) narcissitic attachment, 2) the self-concept or James' "me", self-awareness, or 3) William James' "I" or Freud's ego, the executive, operating on the reality principle? I do think that enlightened masters are able to rid themselves of attachment. And Buddhists believe that the way to cease attachment is through realizing that their is no self-concept. But realizing that there is no inherently existing self is different from not acknowledging a self for even practical purposes. How could one relate to others with no concept of self as different from other objects? And how would one go about daily activities neccesary for survival? Does self-referent thought just cease?- No "I am hungry so I will beg for some rice." To be able to perform daily activities of living it seems that some notion of selfhood must be retained. It seems that loss of narcissitic craving and use of the self for only conventional purposes while realizing it and other so called objects have no inherent existence characterizes the "enlightened," "egoless" experience. The big question is how does compassion for others naturally follow this change?


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinecHeMiCaLbLuE
member
Registered: 04/07/02
Posts: 158
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #616979 - 04/24/02 01:04 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

What i meant is that the ego can be restructured during earthly life, with the loss of the materialistic aspect of it coming with enlightenment, once you lose your desire for material posessions, your world becomes drastically changed because your ego looks for something else to please it, they call this the next demension or the process of ascending. once you learn of the other world you can come back to the material world once you learn a balance between the two, but i warn you it gets fuckin crazy, you yourself like myself may become fucked in the head when you realize this is not real, none of it. but for me being fucked in the head is not even real because it does not exsist, it is only a suggstion i placed upon myself, do you follow, lol?


--------------------
insanity with a plan, a plan to stop exercising truth as compared to breathing thin air, but to experience truth as all there is to experience, for what do i not already have that exsists? All i can do is enjoy the ride.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: cHeMiCaLbLuE]
    #617077 - 04/24/02 04:48 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I wish that I can say I have reached complete ego dissolution, at least not chemically induced. But from what I've experienced, ego-loss would just make you merge with the universe. There would be no concept of "I" so there can be no "I". There is only the being that is the cumulation of experience. It would be seen as more of an "event" than an experience because there is no ego to "experience".
Without an ego, you are just an observer viewing the event that is your life.

Everybody needs an ego to survive but sometimes I like to shed my ego and view the world in a new light.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #617142 - 04/24/02 07:10 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

That is totally interesting. So do you mean that when you have this experience, you are not self-aware- you don't think "here I am shrooming"? There is this interesting distinction between objective self-awareness and subjective self-awareness. OSA is a state wherein you are aware of yourself as a seperate entity engaging in an acitivity whereas SSA involves no self-referent thought.

When I was shrooming recently, for a few seconds I experienced what I thought was the complete lack of attachment to things. I became really aware of each of my thoughts, intentions, behaviors and how they were motivated by this defensive/narcissitic/something motive and decided not to be like this anymore. It was extremely liberating and I've been trying to incorporate that way of looking at things into my non-shrooming life. It's hard not to fall back into your old patterns though. It was only about a level 3 trip so I did not experience the "merging with the universe" type ego dissolution.



--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #617148 - 04/24/02 07:22 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

jpatanat,

I agree with danimal. People have different ways of justifying their beliefs in the world. Empiricist/rationalists base their beliefs on science and reason as opposed to taking the word of popular thought, authority figures, or subjective impressions. This greatly reduces the possiblity of bias in the attempt to discover the real state of affairs. Whether or not somebody can achieve enlightenment and how that is achieved are complex questions that I would also like to understand through more than just vague impressions and blind faith.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #617806 - 04/24/02 09:51 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I also wish that I cold say that I have reached ego dissolution, but I have not. As such I cannot answer some of the questions, like how it is possible to survive without a concept of self. Of the one enlightened master i have met, and the many books i have read on Buddhism, it seems that enlightened people survive quite well, and in most cases live much longer and always more peacefully than the non-enlightened. I do not know how, because I am not enlightened.
I think that when you say that you 'merge with the universe' it is slightly misleading, because it implies that you are entering something outside the self. But my [limited] understanding is that there is nothing other than self. (simlutaneously there is no self). And another major point is that there is no observer, because experience does not happen to anyone - it just happens. That, I think, is the theory of oneness. Our experience is singular, and all-encompassing. We usually think of ourselves as a part of a larger existence, but according to Buddhism that is the fundamental delusion from which all others arise. ridding ourselves of this fundamental delusion, is the dissolution of ego, enlightenment, experience of the One Existence, God, the Fundamental Ground of Being, One Mind, etcetera.
I hope this is coherent.

Peace.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: Danimal]
    #617816 - 04/24/02 10:02 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

You are right Danimal. I agree with you.
However, I have read some of the Dalai Lama's books. Also I have met an enlighetened master and I have read many books. The fact that anyone is enlightened cannot be proven. But I have faith that enlightenment exists, and that it is achievable by anyone. Perhaps some people scoff at faith. That is fine. I do not scoff at faith (anymore) because I now have it.

Peace.

ps. i did not mean to be aggressive towards Swami. The first post (which I deleted) was not supposed to be there. Sometimes I have to write something a couple times before signs of my frustration go away. I apologize for that remark.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: buttonion]
    #617824 - 04/24/02 10:11 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Buttonion,
"...as opposed to taking the word of popular thought, authority figures, or subjective impressions."
this is unfounded and I resent it. However the last term "subjective impressions" I do not understand. I have argued in another thread that subjective impressions are all we have. What would an objective impression be? (actually I would rather not get into another discussion about subjectivity vs. objectivity.)
I too am attempting to discover the real state of affairs. Please do not think that I am obtuse or gullible. I try to remain open-minded and to not cling to any belief too firmly. As I just mentioned though, I do have faith. You can condemn faith, I do not. Also it is unfounded that my beliefs and my faith are "just vague impressions and blind faith." I also resent that.

Peace.

Edited by JPAtanat (04/25/02 12:36 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #617914 - 04/24/02 11:58 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

Swami, I know this will be unsatisfactory to you, but when you meet an enlightened master, you just know.
I know you tire of the same song, but what can I say? There are many spiritual teachers, aka, swami's, gurus, masters, ministers, etc. with large followings.

I thought the Bhagwan Rajneesh was the real deal. His books are totally amazing. I most certainly had my doubts after I visited him in Rajneespurham (Antelope, OR). He walks the walk and talks the talk, but 18 Rolls Royces and automatic weapons everywhere?

74 year old Swami Kriyananda of the Self-Realization fellowship seemed to be at least partway there. He was recently ousted from the community he founded 30 years ago, for sexual misconduct.

Sai Baba - stage magician and a major crowd pleaser.

Powerful charisma or even wisdom does not equal enlightenment, but these leader's followers are SURE that they are/were masters.

If you have an open mind, there is no doubt.
Here is your basic tautology.

You must be very deluded and caught up in discursive thought and endless "reasoning" to be able to look Truth in the face and not be able to recognize it.
If I cannot recognize it, how do I know that I am looking in the face of truth and not just the face of a very good actor? No facetiousness is implied here.

Do you doubt the enlightenment of the Dalai Lama?
I doubt that any man is enlightened. What criterion can I use other than your nondescript "knowing look"?

Before you make a statement that I am giving you the standard rationalist response, please explain how so many very sincere seekers are frequently taken in by hucksters? How can I tell that they are not ALL hucksters or at a minimum, deluded by their own power over others?

What would lead me to believe that enlightenment is even possible? A book? Alan Watts was brilliant and from his writings seemed as enlightened as a man could be, yet he died an alcoholic. That does not seem to fit the lifestyle of an enlightened one.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (04/25/02 02:55 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDanimal
journeyman
Registered: 04/12/02
Posts: 76
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #617916 - 04/25/02 12:01 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

JPAtanat:
I'm a bit confused...did you write the following quote, "...as opposed to taking the word of popular thought, authority figures, or subjective impressions." because I've only posted five times(this being 6) and I none of them contained that, so I'm assuming you're confusing me with someone else. The same goes for me calling your faith "just vague impressions and blind faith".

Upon looking at the other posts, I believe you meant to direct your statement toward Buttonion.

Toodles.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinecHeMiCaLbLuE
member
Registered: 04/07/02
Posts: 158
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #617922 - 04/25/02 12:07 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

plain and simple, ego death is the distinct feeling, and i do mean distinct, in fact it is probably the most distinct feeling you well ever feel as well as the most terrifying, when you realize essentially you are nothing in the human form but startdust, you fell as if you have completely lost your place in the universe as well as your perception of it. Right before i hit complete ego death on my last trip i kept asking my girlfriend why she had to go home, what was the purpose in going there for it seemed so surreal, then when i was being dropped off at home my friends had to drag me outa the car because i had hit complete ego death by then and i didn't even recognize where they were taking me, i was just panicking, they threw me outa the car onto my driveway and told me where i was, consequently i stood at my doorstep for probably 10 minutes deciding wether or not i should enter the house or not, cause i felt like i didn't belong there anymore.


--------------------
insanity with a plan, a plan to stop exercising truth as compared to breathing thin air, but to experience truth as all there is to experience, for what do i not already have that exsists? All i can do is enjoy the ride.

Edited by cHeMiCaLbLuE (04/25/02 12:15 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: cHeMiCaLbLuE]
    #617950 - 04/25/02 12:40 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

If there was no ego, I wouldn't be. The physical me would be, but without an ego.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: JPAtanat]
    #618025 - 04/25/02 02:48 AM (21 years, 10 months ago)

JPAtanat,
Yeah "merging" is a bit misleading,
I meant that there simply is no distinction between self and universe. There is no distinction between self and others. It is all one "event". I would call this event Creation but Bhuddism is fine by me. :smile: 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: Swami]
    #618407 - 04/25/02 12:50 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

I guess you are right (no facetiousness)
First, I don't know that there are more seekers being duped than are not. But that doesn't seem relevant. I think it has to do with your personal experience. If you are finding truth within yourself, perhaps it is irrelevant if the master is technically enlightened or not, since, we cannot definitively say what that is. For all intensive purposes, that master would be enlightened. You realized that the masters your worked with were frauds, so you made the judgement about whether they were enlightened or not. In the same way, I will make the judgement when I meet a master of whether he is sincere and enlightened or not.
You say "what criterion can you use other than my knowing look?" Yet that is all we have, as you have demostrated. Even in the case of Bhagwan Rajneesh, it is your knowing look, attached to a lot of thought that made you decide that he was fake. Also you made decisions basde on his possessions, and you declared that Alan Watts' being an alcoholic "unenlightened" behavior. I am not saying you are wrong in those judgements, but they are just judgements, and others may judge differently. Maybe enlightenment is in the eye of the beholder.
The Buddha taught the "Four Reliances" which reminds us of what to look for in tha masters we choose. It reminded me of you when I read it, because I think that you could also apply it in many cases to when you read other people's posts.
1. Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality.
2. Rely on the meaning, not just the words.
3. Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one.
4. Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind.
Of course there are frauds out there, but that does not mean they are all frauds. I have faith that enlightenment exists, and I have faith that I will be able to tell the difference between someone who is enlightened and someone who is not.

Peace.

Edited by JPAtanat (04/25/02 12:57 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinecHeMiCaLbLuE
member
Registered: 04/07/02
Posts: 158
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #618437 - 04/25/02 01:26 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

your ego is your perception so mybe you would become only a spectator of what is happening, not a participant kinda like in a dream.


--------------------
insanity with a plan, a plan to stop exercising truth as compared to breathing thin air, but to experience truth as all there is to experience, for what do i not already have that exsists? All i can do is enjoy the ride.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: If there was no ego, who would you be? [Re: cHeMiCaLbLuE]
    #618439 - 04/25/02 01:31 PM (21 years, 10 months ago)

but the quesion is WHO is spectating? Without an ego, nobody is spectating it is just spontaneous and pure Experience.

Peace.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Ego-Death ? MrTwisted 1,078 5 06/18/03 05:46 PM
by MrTwisted
* JUST Experienced Psychadelically Induced Ego Loss
( 1 2 all )
Source 2,531 25 04/28/04 10:08 AM
by ScubySnak420
* Programming/filters/ego Ego Death 909 12 04/26/08 05:56 PM
by coulterIV
* What's the big deal with 'Ego Loss?'
( 1 2 all )
Autonomous 2,238 21 08/09/03 12:32 PM
by TrypNballZium
* enlightenment or imagination? AbeZard 2,575 9 08/08/01 07:04 PM
by Ishmael
* What does enlightenment really mean? Sclorch 1,172 18 04/03/03 06:30 AM
by metalchimp
* Enlightenment/Meditation: Emptiness or Awareness? Revelation 1,712 5 08/06/02 12:36 PM
by chrispc
* If you think you will find enlightenment in a drug...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Scarfmeister 8,356 65 06/19/03 03:14 PM
by Grav

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,564 topic views. 1 members, 2 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.