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InvisibleSimisu
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Our day and age
    #6155174 - 10/10/06 07:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

humans and history, do we actually think of where our actions, everyday actions like soap food and TV take us as humans or rather take us away from humanity. we're animals after all we got many built in instincts we sadly suppress in the sake of society. can our biological machines carry us through this process of defying the body, the very fiber of our being?

what's acceptable no longer comes from our natural habitat, where we ACTUALLY dwell. our social programing is made up, it has no substance anymore, it comes from words or stories but seldom from first hand experience.

my digestive system for example, i often wonder if I'm putting it through too much stress, although i do my best to be conscious of what i need and when i need it but how do i know?
if i were a prehistoric monkey I'd only live on what's THERE, I'd hunt or gather food and eat it just like my parents did and their parents etc.. my body was ready to deal with whatever came, nothing was new. today i can decide I'd eat nothing but cake until i die (which won't be too long i presume) but that would have never happened a couple or more thousand years ago!

granted food and food preparation (fire and such) is one of the reasons we got to where we are so fast, but at what "price"? i imagine that while prehistoric man wanted to make a better habitat for them selves they would only come around to it if they had the biologic push to do it, meaning they first had to deal with a certain set of problems before they could "fix" something and then have to deal with another set of problems.
they would discover fire and suddenly food is digested faster and they have more energy to spend on social games, interactions, exploring or whatever, than they need to deal with having to constantly move around to find game because, now they had so much energy and time they consumed more then they usually did. so forming another set of problems etc..

now us humans are challenged by a very sharp change of our environment, it attacks our primary senses constantly, attacks our body constantly (comfort comes with a price indeed, sitting on a chair all day or worse a couch is not what our body was created for) our very concept of the world is scattered and fragmented having originated from all over the place. psychologically we're inept at dealing with real situations and the many confusing and confused individuals we interact with.

we don't have a choice in the matter but we're aware of its consequences, trying to blame someone or something for it, browsing for ways to alleviate the stress somehow. i think that's why all the hippie things quickly spread all over the world, things like Yoga and meditations. but is that enough? does modern man do more then browse for solutions, dabble in a little of this and a little of that? how much does our biological needs for a "resting" period pushes us? can it over take all the rest of stimuli we get?

as i see it, this is exactly why religion (primitive or organized) originated, a set of rules to make order out of this new environment we created. soon the benefits for the mind and body were less necessary and individuals took advantage of the system to perpetuate certain rules that worked for their benefit.
so is a new religion called for? should humans unite under some sort of hyper religion, should it be science for example or maybe the internet :smirk:
or maybe just one that seeks to cure all our ills? both psychological and physical!
one that would educate our children in such a way they would not get sick in the first place. one that would make them feel like life is worth living that whatever goes through their mind is worthy of existing!?


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Edited by Simisu (10/10/06 07:33 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Our day and age [Re: Simisu]
    #6155199 - 10/10/06 07:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I don't see how religion and society clashes with any human insticts, exept to kill, but that's not an urge you are born with, it has to be caused by something else.
That is if we are talking about a healthy psyche.


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Our day and age [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #6155255 - 10/10/06 07:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
That is if we are talking about a healthy psyche.




exactly!
i don't think the psyche is healthy...
and well, shamanism was very much into the mind/body connection. later organized religions had separated the physical aspect from the spiritual, things like dress code and courtship practices are very much a part of organized religion and are often suppressive on the body and senses, indeed dress code and a change in courtship habits change the very idea of the thing and that's exactly what i mean. these changes are initiated by US, by our made up environment!

if my instinct used to be get-horny-grab-a-mate-and-do-my-thing now it's suppressed and replaced by social programing. words.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Our day and age [Re: Simisu]
    #6155327 - 10/10/06 08:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Simisu said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
That is if we are talking about a healthy psyche.




exactly!
i don't think the psyche is healthy...
and well, shamanism was very much into the mind/body connection. later organized religions had separated the physical aspect from the spiritual, things like dress code and courtship practices are very much a part of organized religion and are often suppressive on the body and senses, indeed dress code and a change in courtship habits change the very idea of the thing and that's exactly what i mean. these changes are initiated by US, by our made up environment!

if my instinct used to be get-horny-grab-a-mate-and-do-my-thing now it's suppressed and replaced by social programing. words.




IF you are hungry, no religion is forbiding you to eat.

IF you want to have sex, every religion alows you to take a woman, and a healthy psyche is capable of having a long term relationship with one woman and creating a family which is a healthy environment for children to be born into.
On the other hand there are sex addicts, but why build society around them? It's like manufacturing majority of cars for people with one hand

If you are thirsty, no religion forbits you to drink

what else do you need?

To kill, not if you have those 3
To rape? Not if you have number two.
To steal? Not if you have first and third
To have power over others?
You don't have an urge to have power unless you feel week in the first place. People who want or have power, do it because they are weak as they are.

A man who doesn't feel enough powerfull naked in the middle of the field with nothing but air around him, is a sick man, sickened by so many things in todays world.

All that which is supressed in religions is not even something a healthy psyche needs. Only those who had their mind twisted by problems in life or lack of fullfillment of certain needs with have urges that clash with most religions.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Our day and age [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #6155424 - 10/10/06 08:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

that's all good, but it doesn't hold when you look at the micro events... IF i want to eat i have all kinds of foods but am i educated enough in my environment to recognize what's good for me? religion used to control those things too, Jews don't eat swine because pigs meat went bad faster then other meat, to protect the body they made all kinds of rules, kosher or not kosher?
Muslims don't imbibe alcohol or any other intoxicants...

i don't say build society around the flaws, but we certainly need to recognize and deal with them right? religion of course aims to help with all aspects of life but the religions of today are pretty far from current events I'd say. there are many new challenges and little quirks to settle!

the needs or humans are superficially basic but not once you look into the psyche, once you take the psyche in account there are many things a person thinks he needs. call him stupid or sick he can't help it right? it needs to be addressed and even though I'm far from a religious person i suggest that perhaps we need to improve on that model somehow in order to address these things.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Our day and age [Re: Simisu]
    #6155464 - 10/10/06 08:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If religion went so far as to set rules for every tiny thing in human lives, where would it end? How many books would you have to write for that?

That's why religion sets general guidlines: like love thy fellow man for example

And you figure out the details by considering such general guidlines.

That's where wisedom comes from.

Again in a healthy community, those with less wisedom, but open minds will always listen to those with more wisedom, so if people stick together and are brothers, there is wisedom for everyone, the collective wisedom that is.

Once you get in tune with your spirit, you don't really need words for everything in life, because it becomes obvious.

Really, I say again, only the sick complain, and that goes for many things, beyond religion


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Our day and age [Re: Simisu]
    #6155681 - 10/10/06 09:22 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Simisu said:
exactly!
i don't think the psyche is healthy...

...

if my instinct used to be get-horny-grab-a-mate-and-do-my-thing now it's suppressed and replaced by social programing. words.



I don't really think this is what's responsible for percieved illnesses/perturbations of the psyche.

I think that a better explanation is just pure statistics.

In the "wild" we would only live to be about 30, and between 30% and 90% of us would die prematurely, with prematurely being defined as "before we had a chance to reproduce", anything from infant mortality, to starvation, to fevers, to accidents, to being killed by predators. I know the 90% estimate seems high, but that's currently standard in some mamal populations (controlled for human activity) and since we weren't around to calculate these things, its hard to tell who to model us on.

Suddenly, in a VERY short period of time, evolutionarily speaking, the premature death rate falls from 25-50% to less than .01% in many countries, and our life expectancy goes from 30 to 80. Even more stark is that many of the biggest jumps occured around the advent of modern medicine, only in the last 200 years or so.

Now, what if human psyches could be scaled on a bell-curve clustered around a mean that was "healthy"?

Everyone at the tails would have an unhealthy psyche, though the illness would not necessarily manifest itself in the same way: some could be suicidal, some could be depressed, some could be hyperactive, the whole spectrum could be represented as the periphery on a 3-dimensional bell-curve or "hill shape".

In the wild these unhealthy psyches would almost never manifest themselves because the total mortality rate was so high that only the healthy psyches in the center of the bell curve would ever be revealed through random sampling. Sure, if you searched hard enough, and over a long enough period of time, you could find some examples of unhealthy psyches, but that would match our findings of other wildlife as well. We know that animals of other species will, on very limited occasions, seem to commit suicide, become depressed, etc.

However, within the last 200 years, a rush of discoveries have dramatically increased survival rates on a global scale. Refrigeration, mechanized transportation, antibiotics, surgery, organ transplantation, all arose in just the last 200 years.

And what else suddenly began to arise within the last 200 years?

Problems with depression, hyperactivity, suicidal tendencies, and everything else which Freud would have simply termed "hysteria".

Couldn't all these problems simply be due to more individuals surviving along the tails of the bell curve? If more individuals from the tails of the "healthy psyche" curve began to live to maturity it would be perfectly normal for us to see the dramatic increase in manifestations of psyche problems throughout the world.

But I think the more important question is: If the increased survival rate explains the increased manifestations of these problems, what's to be done to solve them?

If indeed these individuals are just products of statistics and random genetic combinations, as cold and harsh as that may sound, what can we, as a society, do to help them?


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OfflineoDin
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Re: Our day and age [Re: Economist]
    #6156710 - 10/11/06 02:01 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

yes the gene pool is decending into a shit hole via technology


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InvisibleSimisu
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Re: Our day and age [Re: oDin]
    #6157388 - 10/11/06 11:03 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i don't think it's just that, i think every individual has the means to overcome these adversities it's just that there is no social construct that teaches these responses. we have much more time to deal with problems but these problems are complex and our example does not often come from experience but via indirect fashions (most of which are simply false or outdated, the media or old religions for example)

what's going to happen in another 200 years? how are we going to deal with the ever amounting people who need to be taken care of since they're no longer a productive part of society? will we have enough time for "personal growth"?

I'm being pretty vague because i can't really predict any of these things, i don't think i know enough to extrapolate on my own musings but i do wonder about these things a lot!

the reason I'm talking about religion is because i think it used to play a part in the personal life of people regardless of the society around them, it helped them make sense and find their own self in the midst of the world around them. today people are "lost" or scattered about, we've lost the focus on the personal experience, on the human in each of us. sure some of us try to figure it out and sort our own lives but most people no longer look inside, they gaze at society and its made up rules regulations and circumstances and wonder how the fuck it all fits in... and it doesn't, it's one big mess and it's no longer about the individual.

maybe i have a twisted point of view? maybe I'm delusional? maybe it's just me but i doubt it! and I'm not looking for a solution either, I'll leave that for each person with him self. the question is dose anyone actually consider these things when he goes about his daily life?


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