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InvisibleRavus
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Silversoul]
    #6155987 - 10/11/06 05:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
In reality, there are no absolutes or extremes.



Except for that absolute statement you just made.



I said, "in reality", not absolutely. I'm sure in non-real places existence can take an absolute or extreme setting. :smirk:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineAmethyst
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Ravus]
    #6156976 - 10/11/06 11:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Another good point to make is the English language starts to fail when diving into the depths of philosophy. It seems all to often we get caught up in the words more than the concept......


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"That's the story moving from the NO to the YES. All of life is like, no thankyou, no thankyou, no thankyou. Then ultimatey it's YES i give in, YES I accept, YES I embrace."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Ravus]
    #6157623 - 10/11/06 07:38 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Ravus said:
For the "I am everything, I am nothing" statements, either the people have nothing worthwhile to say, or, less likely, they're visiting the Shroomery on high doses of LSD that have warped their brains so much that meaningless statements actually begin to reflect the true nature of reality. Either way, they're not communicating anything to anyone besides themselves.

In reality, there are no absolutes or extremes. Existence is not extreme, but rather extreme is a label of certain states of existence that are perfectly natural and universal.




You must be refering to me. I can realate to feeling connected to everything and also sensing the illusory nature of the so called self.

Saying one is everything and nothing is a vain attempt to comprehend the Tao or the limitless void. Everyone gives it a shot at some point I guess. There is nothing wrong with that.




Actually, I wasn't referring to any specific person. I've seen many people write posts like that, and I've spoken to a lot of people in real life who like to rattle off gibberish. In real life, I simply try to force them to delve into the basis and root of their statements. Most people I'm content if you can extract a single drop of logic from an entire forest of beliefs and thoughts that don't make any sense, that don't seem to logically fit together. I think a lot of people mistaken for spirituality simply have a dysfunction in their neurons that causes their mind to mistake imaginary gaps in knowledge for open territory in insisting the truth for their fantastic bridges of faith.




Everyone thinks irrationally, some are just a little better at it.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelandsnorkler

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 3,047
Loc: Montana
Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Amethyst]
    #6157749 - 10/11/06 08:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Amethyst, you make a good point. People are trying to get their feelings across, and it is hard to do with the English language. Psilo, why do you read threads that piss you off? Why do you get emotional, and angry about them? That is exactly what a baby would do if he did not get his way.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: landsnorkler]
    #6158915 - 10/12/06 12:43 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

who said I am getting emotional and angry?

just because i refuse to self-censor?

what is more child like? experiencing that which you may not agree with/enjoy? or not burying your head in the sand and experiencing/being open to all there is?

Do you not get out of bed some days because you know there are going to be parts of the day you dont like?


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OfflineFospher
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Ravus]
    #6159201 - 10/12/06 02:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
For the "I am everything, I am nothing" statements, either the people have nothing worthwhile to say, or, less likely, they're visiting the Shroomery on high doses of LSD that have warped their brains so much that meaningless statements actually begin to reflect the true nature of reality.




I have had those posts, and always will. Even looking back at my previous philosophy, I sometimes wonder what was going through my mind at the time. Then I trip and find out again! :lol:

The thing is, those wholistic experiences, that do not have to be drug-induced, and are just experiences of transcendece, cannot have a rational explanation. It just hits you like a lighting bolt, that connection to everyone and everything. You cant explain it to someone who hasn't experienced it, because it is not a rational experience. It is the experience of God, and explaining what God is would only define your beliefs into boundaries that dont exist in the first place. It is the root, the seed, the axiom. It is accepted because there is no explanation.


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010001100100001001000101!


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OfflineFospher
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6159247 - 10/12/06 02:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Im seeing way too many threads that are pure babble tied together with polarized extremes.

I dont want to call any people out personally, but if you skim most of the last 20 threads you will see what I am talking about.

Im not saying extremes arent useful, but some of you need to stop with the esoteric, extreme duality.

ill concede though that maybe it is my harsh skepticism of such statements as "I am everything, I am nothing"... type crap.





This life is ruled by absolutes. What you have in life is defined as something that cannot be anything else. If your car is red, then your car is red. Your car cannot be red and black at the same time. It can be red with black stripes, but then it will be red with black stripes, which in itself will be an absolute.

As far as the you are everything/nothing threads go - that implies the exact converse. Being everything means that you CAN BE EVERYTHING, a range of infinity, being the abstract and not the absolute.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Fospher]
    #6159384 - 10/12/06 03:26 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

there is a huge difference between Present Isness and absolutes.

Your car can be red, then it IS red, but it is not absolutely red... meaning that it impossible to infer whether or not that the car will forever be red, or has always been red.

Using absolutes claims that there is no change. If there is only absolutes in this world, then there is no change.

I also have issue with the esoteric quality of such explanations as yours which accompany justification of "I am everything, i am nothing".
Im not in anyway trying to have a contest to see who has licked the face of God the most or the hardest, but in my thousands of trips and all gradients of intensity, I have never had the notion or cognition of "i am everything, I am nothing", nor have I ever claimed "we are all one" (because, doesn't we denote more than one? unless you are a queen?).
That isn't to say I havent pondered such ideas, in hopes of understanding what the fuck it is some of you are speaking so vaguely about.... but in the end, I believe it to be another version of the emporers new clothes.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6159438 - 10/12/06 03:45 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

out of two, pick the third. :mushroom2:

EDIT: not related to the ongoing discussion in particular.


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Edited by AlteredAgain (10/12/06 03:45 AM)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6159539 - 10/12/06 04:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Your car can be red, then it IS red, but it is not absolutely red...





No, it is not a matter whether a car can or cannot be something. If it is, then it is, and it is not anything else. Does this contradict change? If a car rusts, then you can say a certain counterpart is rusted or corroded, that in itself implying the new state. The main crux of this mindset is that there are no contradictions. If a changed to b, then b is no longer a.

Quote:


I also have issue with the esoteric quality of such explanations as yours which accompany justification of "I am everything, i am nothing". Im not in anyway trying to have a contest to see who has licked the face of God the most or the hardest, but in my thousands of trips and all gradients of intensity, I have never had the notion or cognition of "i am everything, I am nothing", nor have I ever claimed "we are all one" (because, doesn't we denote more than one? unless you are a queen?).




Absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence. It just means that you haven't experienced it. That moment of 'Istigkeit', the is-ness, you see existence shining with it's own inner light, quievering under the pressure and significance under which it was charged. You experience the core, the divine source of all existence.
I don't think that can ever be fully explained.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Fospher]
    #6159639 - 10/12/06 05:04 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

absolute does not equal "Is". How can you sit here and defend the thesis of absolute duality herein known as "I am everything, I am nothing" and claim that something either IS this, or it Is that?

how many things which are absolute can you experience? besides vodka, i cant think of anything. Sure you can imagine what Absolute Zero would be and look like, and maybe in your mind you can experience such things, but in reality, everything falls just short of absolutes in both directions.

Of course you can think and imagine the concept of absolute duality, and maybe even come to believe that you have experienced it, but you cannot ever actually do it. What is the difference between saying "i am everything" and "everything is purple"?


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6159792 - 10/12/06 05:40 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)


Mod edit:

1) No flaming. If you can't state your case or refute someone else's case without calling him/her "stupid" or an "idiot" don't bother posting here. This forum is for intelligent discussion, not for belittling someone who holds differing opinions. This rule will be strictly enforced. If you have been warned already you will receive a temporary ban, if you continue to flame you will be banned permanently. Choose your words wisely or suffer the consequences.


Edited by Annom (10/12/06 05:10 PM)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6160000 - 10/12/06 06:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
absolute does not equal "Is". How can you sit here and defend the thesis of absolute duality herein known as "I am everything, I am nothing" and claim that something either IS this, or it Is that?




1. I can argue whatever I please. I dont always believe in what I argue, often I have alterior reasons. I might do it to better understand the opposite side of the fence. I might do it to generate a response, to probe information by challenging the other's belief. I might do it to challenge the argument, to question the moral precepts of the one arguing. Or, perhaps my argument goes farther than you currently see it, and indeed those two points do not contradict.

Do you believe that a red is not a red? That you can define your own car's color just by wishing it? Please notify me once you have the power to paint by thought, I might have a business proposal.

Now, as I have said before, there are no contradictions. The point of irrationality is what all rationality is built upon. It is like this in Math, in Logic, in Reality. In geometry, everything is built upon logic. Links connecting the substeps of rational analysis. If a is b and b is c, then a = c. For example, a triangle is three lines, forming together so the angles make up 180 degrees. A line is the shortest path from one point to another. But what is a point? Euclidian Geometry accepts it as an axiom, a 'thing' that has only position, but no further definition. It is not proved and is an initial necessary consensus for the theory building or acceptation.

So just like in Euclidian Geometry, a point is the core, so is the Mystical experience in Reality. It is the divine core of all existence, it is where everything comes from, the connection of all and none. It is the seed from which the tree is planted. The tree, the tree of life, follows logic at every corner, but the seed, the axiom on which it is built on, cannot be explained.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Telepylus]
    #6160012 - 10/12/06 06:32 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
can you write a complete sentence that applies to Spirituality or Philosophy?
if so, please do it, or shut the fuck up




At least he can write a complete sentence in general.  :smirk:


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OfflineAmethyst
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Fospher]
    #6160020 - 10/12/06 06:33 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
The thing is, those wholistic experiences, that do not have to be drug-induced, and are just experiences of transcendece, cannot have a rational explanation. It just hits you like a lighting bolt, that connection to everyone and everything. You cant explain it to someone who hasn't experienced it, because it is not a rational experience. It is the experience of God, and explaining what God is would only define your beliefs into boundaries that dont exist in the first place. It is the root, the seed, the axiom. It is accepted because there is no explanation.




wow I agree, well said  :thumbup:  :heart:
That also goes for all direct human experiences, how can one ever explain a human experience of any kind on any level? It's hard enough to even understand the people we love the most.


--------------------
"That's the story moving from the NO to the YES. All of life is like, no thankyou, no thankyou, no thankyou. Then ultimatey it's YES i give in, YES I accept, YES I embrace."


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OfflineMaitereya
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Registered: 03/25/06
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Amethyst]
    #6160283 - 10/12/06 07:30 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

i am everything and i am nothing.

i dont know where this came from, its likley some zen koan or some westernized misunderstood statement to sound evolved.

but heres my explanation for those who care. god is the highest plane, material is the lowest. so god saying i am everything, that includes god and material and everything in between. i am nothing means that god doesnt exist in space time, so therefore god is nothing.

hope that helps, if it doesnt then read fosphers post, quoted above.


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Maitereya]
    #6160307 - 10/12/06 07:35 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

what is nothing?

it doesn't make much sense to me to put "is" or "am" in front of the word nothing.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: TameMe]
    #6160330 - 10/12/06 07:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Fospher-
i'm notifying you to let you know that i do paint with thought.
and i can prove it to you.
so i may be interested in your business proposal.


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Invisiblelandsnorkler

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 3,047
Loc: Montana
Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Ravus]
    #6160581 - 10/12/06 09:07 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Psilo, you are a goddamn mosquito, but I love ya.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: absolutes and extremes [Re: Telepylus]
    #6160660 - 10/12/06 09:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Thought without action? Alright then, lets put Maaco out of business with telekinesis.  :thumbup:


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