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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6169973 - 10/14/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
But maybe you'll surprise me. Maybe you'll claim you would have supported bombing Afghanistan with multiple nukes under such circumstances.




What makes you think that I would support the invasion of any country?
Especially a country that never threatened us.

We could have easily sent in an elite military group and had OBL with in a few weeks. No need to take over the whole country if all we wanted was one person. If you have ever talked to anyone from one of these elite military teams you would understand that they can go anywhere on the planet, without anyone knowing that they were there, and having a much less chance for collateral damage.

We went in to Afghanistan for revenge. We went in to take over their country and put in our own version of what a government should be. The whole OBL story was a sham. GWB even stated that he wasn't concerned w/OBL shortly after the invasion.

Pretty easy to see if you look at the whole picture.

Korea was well justified in acquiring a nuke.
America will think twice before invading them now.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: niteowl]
    #6170103 - 10/14/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What makes you think that I would support the invasion of any country?




What makes you think Americans as a whole would back an administration dropping multiple nukes on Afghanistan? If you wouldn't support it, what is your reason for saying other Americans would?

YOU'RE the one saying if ObL had detonated a nuke rather than using hijacked planes, America would have dropped multiple nukes on Afghanistan. I'M the one saying they wouldn't. You don't even think about the things you type before you type them, do you?

Quote:

We could have easily sent in an elite military group and had OBL with in a few weeks.




Bullshit.

Quote:

No need to take over the whole country if all we wanted was one person.




You seem unable to realize that there is no "we" involved. It was a United Nations deal. You also seem unable to realize that the UN didn't take over the whole country (as Alex213 never tires of pointing out). You also forget how the Northern Alliance commanders were pissing and moaning loudly in public how the coalition forces were going about it all wrong and concentrating on the wrong places. That's because the coalition had a different agenda from the Northern Alliance. The Northern Alliance wanted to destroy the Taliban. The coalition wanted to capture ObL.

As it happens, the Northern Alliance accomplished its goal (and to this day they boast they would have accomplished it with no outside help, albeit perhaps not as rapidly) while the coalition forces didn't accomplish theirs -- democratically elected Afghanis now comprise the government of Afghanistan, but ObL has flown the coop.

Quote:

If you have ever talked to anyone from one of these elite military teams you would understand that they can go anywhere on the planet, without anyone knowing that they were there...




Bullshit.

Quote:

We went in to Afghanistan for revenge.




Bullshit.

Quote:

We went in to take over their country and put in our own version of what a government should be.




More bullshit.

Quote:

The whole OBL story was a sham.




Even more bullshit. What alternate universe do you live in, anyway?

Quote:

Korea was well justified in acquiring a nuke.
America will think twice before invading them now.




America would never have invaded North Korea and you know it. Why you pretend otherwise is beyond me.



Phred


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6170847 - 10/15/06 02:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

America would never have invaded North Korea and you know it. Why you pretend otherwise is beyond me.




I didn't think America would invade Iraq either.......but they did. My opinion of what country America would invade is not the issue. What is the issue is what did Koera think about it. Obviously they thought that they may be targeted for attack, especially after the U.S. invaded Iraq.

You talk bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

You're just as full of it as anyone else who cant see why Korea acquired a nuke. (GWB claiming that they are an "axis of evil" then proceeding to attack these "evil empires")

If you really think that an elite military team could not have gotten OBL then you are just as full of bullshit as you claim I am. You apparently have never spent time in the U.S. military nor have you ever talked with some of these elite teams.

I have on both accounts.

The best way to get a small group of people is to send one of these elite teams in. Not to attack an entire country. :rolleyes:

OBL had plenty of time to leave the area. We told him we were coming. If we had secretly sent in a elite team he would have still been hiding out in the back woods of Afghanistan and gotten caught.

We didn't go to Afghanistan for OBL, we went there for revenge plain and simple. If the U.S. really wanted him he would be in Guantanamo now.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

Edited by niteowl (10/15/06 02:24 AM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: niteowl]
    #6170889 - 10/15/06 03:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Korea didn't acquire a nuke because Bush called them evil. They acquired a nuke because they wanted to do so, and they have wanted to do so for a very long time -- at least since the Clinton administration and possibly before that.

Quote:

If you really think that an elite military team could not have gotten OBL then you are just as full of bullshit as you claim I am.




Before 9/11? Sure they could have. It has been amply demonstrated that ObL could have been captured or killed on multiple occasions during the Clinton years. After 9/11? Different story. After 9/11 everything the US government did was under intense public scrutiny. So they played it by the book and went to the UN. One can argue that this was not the best course of action to take, but it is a pretty big stretch to claim it was a deliberate ploy calculated to
give ObL time to escape.

And of course, ObL KNEW they'd be coming after him and lost no time changing his previous lifestyle of swanning around Afganistan with Sheikh Omar of the Taliban and headed for the hills.

But all this talk of ObL is tangential to the question of NoKo's decade-long (at the least) quest for nukes.



Phred


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6170948 - 10/15/06 04:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, N Korea (along with other nations) has wanted a nuke for as long as there have been nukes to be had.

Quote:

In 1993, North Korea refused to allow the International Atomic Energy Agency to conduct special inspections of some of its facilities and threatened to withdraw from the treaty.

Tensions escalated, and in 1994, Clinton began making contingency plans for a possible military strike on the nuclear facility, said Matthew Bunn, who worked on nuclear security issues in the Clinton White House.

The secretary of Defense had traveled to China to alert leaders there of America's plans. Clinton sent bombers to Guam, said Bunn, who is now a nuclear security specialist at Harvard.

But those plans were set aside when former President Carter flew to North Korea in June 1994, Bunn said. The talks led to an agreement that was signed in Geneva in October.

Under that deal, North Korea agreed to halt its existing nuclear program and the United States said it would help North Korea replace its nuclear reactors with light-water power plants. They also agreed to move toward normalizing political and economic relations.




link

To claim that Bush's actions did not accelerate Korea's desire to acquire nuclear weapons is (IMO) the pinnacle of ?ignorance? ?arrogance? ?blind faith? ?stupidity?

Im not trying to flame anyone.....I just really have no words to describe how utterly foolish it is to not be able to see this.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: niteowl]
    #6171215 - 10/15/06 09:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Why did you bother to post that?

It only makes my point for me. Everyone knows now that no sooner was the ink dry on the deal than the NoKo's violated it. And it was pretty damn easy for them to do so, since that buffoon Carter had agreed to the clause about no inspections at all for five years. Worse, Clinton went along with Carter's idiocy.

What took the Norks so long to finally get the bomb was not any slacking on their part while Clinton was still in power and then a sudden acceleration of effort when Bush called them names, but the simple fact that producing the material required is both expensive and (due to the law of physics) time consuming.

Anyone who thinks the Norks weren't going at it as fast as they could given the restrictions on their anemic (to be kind) economy for at the very least the last twelve years represents the pinnacle of ignorance? ?arrogance? ?blind faith? ?stupidity?



Phred


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6171277 - 10/15/06 09:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I never claimed that they didn't want a nuke or weren't trying to build one....read my words.

Just that Bush's actions have placed more pressure on Korea to hurry up and make one now

I never said it was a good idea for any nation to have a nuke. I would love to see all nuclear weapons dismantled and turned into energy......but I know that will never happen. I understand that in the real world nations do want one and can also understand why certain nations are in a rush to get one.

As long as there is a desire to own a nuke, for whatever reason, nukes will continue to be built. Simple supply and demand. No different than Americas failed "War on Drugs"

It amazes me to see a country like America, with laws that state "Every citizen has the right to own and bear arms".....then turn around and try to tell other nations that they don't have the same right.

The hypocrisy of Americas foreign policy simply boggles my mind.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: niteowl]
    #6171304 - 10/15/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I never claimed that they didn't want a nuke or weren't trying to build one....read my words.

Just that Bush's actions have placed more pressure on Korea to hurry up and make one now.




Hey... you live in America. One of the countless good things about living in America is that every American has the right to be wrong.

You have every right to believe in the face of no evidence at all that the Norks were just loafing along on their nuke development program until Bush called them names in public, at which point they buckled down and went from 80% effort to 101%.

Just don't expect the rest of us to buy it.




Phred


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6171326 - 10/15/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

I never claimed that they didn't want a nuke or weren't trying to build one....read my words.

Just that Bush's actions have placed more pressure on Korea to hurry up and make one now.




Hey... you live in America. One of the countless good things about living in America is that every American has the right to be wrong.

You have every right to believe in the face of no evidence at all that the Norks were just loafing along on their nuke development program until Bush called them names in public, at which point they buckled down and went from 80% effort to 101%.

Just don't expect the rest of us to buy it.




Phred




The way I've heard it is that when Bush took office he killed all talks with NK and stopped making a concerted, public effort to keep NK limited to energy production for their nuclear program. And that since the cessation of talks (replaced with a hardline "our way or the highway, goodbye" stance) NK went full tilt into their weaponization program. The only response from Bush being increasingly ominous ultimatums with no follow-through.

Bush may not have forced NK to weaponize their nuclear program but he sure as hell failed to do jack squat about stopping or even slowing it down.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: unbeliever]
    #6171499 - 10/15/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The way I've heard it is that when Bush took office he killed all talks with NK and stopped making a concerted, public effort to keep NK limited to energy production for their nuclear program.




Who'd you hear that from? Keith Olbermann or Noam Chomsky?

It bears no relation to reality. You'd do well to research the matter before posting again.



Phred


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6171513 - 10/15/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

The way I've heard it is that when Bush took office he killed all talks with NK and stopped making a concerted, public effort to keep NK limited to energy production for their nuclear program.




Who'd you hear that from? Keith Olbermann or Noam Chomsky?

It bears no relation to reality. You'd do well to research the matter before posting again.



Phred




Ahh, so flames and content-free replies are how it is here still? I remember now why I quit coming to this myopic, intellectual blackhole of a political forum. Who needs discussion when you have "my way or the highway" posts from the mods?


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: unbeliever]
    #6171532 - 10/15/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I point out that what you "heard" is wrong. Either that or you misremember what you did actually hear.

There has been no shortage of discussion about the Norks' push for nukes in the five years I've been posting on this forum. Anyone who has been following with even half an eye the developments over that period of time would know what you "heard" is wildly inaccurate.

You can continue to post from a state of ignorance or you can inform yourself of the facts. No skin off my nose either way.




Phred


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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6171546 - 10/15/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
I point out that what you "heard" is wrong. Either that or you misremember what you did actually hear.

There has been no shortage of discussion about the Norks' push for nukes in the five years I've been posting on this forum. Anyone who has been following with even half an eye the developments over that period of time would know what you "heard" is wildly inaccurate.

You can continue to post from a state of ignorance or you can inform yourself of the facts. No skin off my nose either way.




Phred




It was an open invitation for discussion. Prior to your retarded reply I was curious as to what your opinion on it was, specifically in regards to what I had heard about it. Your own assumptions about what I may or may not have been following is your own issue. At this point I could give a fuck less what your opinion is. :shrug:


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: unbeliever]
    #6171579 - 10/15/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It was an open invitation for discussion.




And my first contribution to your invitation was to advise you to first check your "facts". There have been literally dozens of threads in this forum covering the genesis of the NoKo nuke problem. I see no need for me to review them to disprove what you heard, especially since the regular readers of this forum know the facts as well as I do.

Quote:

Prior to your retarded reply I was curious as to what your opinion on it was, specifically in regards to what I had heard about it.




And I gave you not just my opinion on it, but the easily checkable truth -- what you heard is wrong. What more do I need to say? I knew you would not take my word for it (I wouldn't in your shoes), if you are truly interested in how the scenario progressed over the last twelve years or so you will take the time to check it out for yourself.

That's why I suggested you do so before posting again on the topic. If you don't want to... hey... that's your issue, not mine.

Quote:

At this point I could give a fuck less what your opinion is.




It's not my "opinion", it's fact. And easily checkable fact, at that. At this point I could give a fuck if you expend the effort to vderify that.




Phred


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6171793 - 10/15/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Article that relates to this discussion:

Newsweek

Quote:


The weird and scary saga of how an isolated, bankrupt nation went nuclear—and how the United States failed to stop it.




:grin:

:levitate:


--------------------
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Like being here
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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6172802 - 10/15/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Before 9/11? Sure they could have. It has been amply demonstrated that ObL could have been captured or killed on multiple occasions during the Clinton years. After 9/11? Different story. After 9/11 everything the US government did was under intense public scrutiny. So they played it by the book and went to the UN. One can argue that this was not the best course of action to take, but it is a pretty big stretch to claim it was a deliberate ploy calculated to
give ObL time to escape.




And the Bush administration did jack-shit before 9/11 even after they had intelligence that Bin Laden was planning an attack and after learning Bin Laden was responsible for the USS Cole bombing. They did nothing. Clinton at least captured the key players of the first WTC attack and attempted to kill Bin Laden twice (and right-wingers at the time accused Clinton of "wagging the dog" for doing so - idiots). Sure, Clinton could have done more, but he certainly did much more than Bush did pre-9/11.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Vvellum]
    #6173222 - 10/15/06 08:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Bush did nothing about getting bin Laden before 9/11, either. I have pointed that out in this forum before.

But claiming Clinton "attempted to kill" bin Laden is a bit of a stretch. He lobbed a few cruise missiles into empty camps, sure. On at least one of the occasions pretty much everything possible was done to make sure the camp would be empty.

Fact of the matter is neither administration did anything even halfway effective about capturing or killing him before 9/11 occurred.

Be that as it may, those failures have nothing to do with the NoKo's nuclear program.



Phred


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Bush's 'Axis of Evil' Comes Back to Haunt United States [Re: Phred]
    #6177345 - 10/17/06 02:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Everyone knows now that no sooner was the ink dry on the deal than the NoKo's violated it.



Everyone knows??? I didn't know that. You'll need to provide a credible link, please.

Quote:

And it was pretty damn easy for them to do so, since that buffoon Carter had agreed to the clause about no inspections at all for five years. Worse, Clinton went along with Carter's idiocy.



"No inspections at all"??? You've just proven that you don't know the facts. Here's a link to the agreement that was signed:

AGREED FRAMEWORK BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

I suggest not using Ann Coulter as a news source.

The agreement says that inspections of North Korea's reactors were to begin immediately. Routine and ad hoc International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA)Inspections of other North Korean facilities were to begin upon conclusion of the supply contract for the provision of the LWR project (after 6 months). North Korea would have to allow special inspections of anything the IAEA deemed necessary before any nuclear materials would ship to North Korea (after about 5 years).

Quote:

You can continue to post from a state of ignorance or you can inform yourself of the facts.



I believe you are the one who needs to learn the facts. Unless you have a source more credible than the agreement.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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