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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: tak]
    #6151747 - 10/09/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thats because your not asian.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: barfightlard]
    #6151792 - 10/09/06 08:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Could you imagine how much acid godzilla would have to eat?

Sheets!

And superman is immune, I heard.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6152097 - 10/09/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Everything in your post is to be said for the US, as has been previously noted. Consider who imposes the sanctions on that country, then re-think who is really starving them.



No offense, but do you follow the news?

China slips them food aid in massive quantities EVERY YEAR, more than enough to make up the deficit, and they're still starving. Their economy is grossly mismanaged, but what do you expect for a regime that clings to an oppressive, disproven idea?

The Soviets weren't able to produce enough food to feed their people (see Soviet dependence on US grain imports during the 1970s and 1980s) and they actually had enough arable land to do so. The same thing happened in China. It's no coincidence that Deng Xiaoping introduced capitalistic reforms beginning immediately after Mao's death in 1976 and guess what...the starvation went away.

The North Koreans are starving because communism was a failed experiment in economics, and they are too foolish to admit that.

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Serious question: Is the US' economy any less miserable when it's sitting on an 8.3-8.5 trillion dollar debt? Isn't any wellness it has only an illusion? Isn't it true that it is actually in the worst position of all?



I was going to ask if this was serious, but I guess you're insisting it is.

The debt belongs to the US government, it's essentially meaningless to the US economy. Even better, because of the method used by the Federal Reserve to increase the money supply (Open Market Operations), the deficit can (and is) actually made to quietly go away over time. So, over time, the debt will also become meaningless to the US government.

The US economy hasn't shrunk in decades, even when there has been a recession, that just indicated that growth slowed, but the growth itself has never stopped. So long as the economy is growing, there's going to be an ever-increasing demand for currency. So long as there is an ever increasing demand for currency, the Fed can perform Open Market Operations to rid the government of debt.

Even if the US economy began to shrink (or stagnate) this wouldn't be a problem because the government can currently afford to make all of its debt payments (hence why there's no problem borrowing more).

So, essentially the only way for the debt to be a problem would be if the economy began a complete and total contraction. However, that would mean the economy was already in the toilet, so the question becomes rhetorical "Wouldn't the debt mean the US economy was in shambles, if the US economy was already in shambles?".

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
    #6152359 - 10/09/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Soviets weren't able to produce enough food to feed their people (see Soviet dependence on US grain imports during the 1970s and 1980s) and they actually had enough arable land to do so. The same thing happened in China. It's no coincidence that Deng Xiaoping introduced capitalistic reforms beginning immediately after Mao's death in 1976 and guess what...the starvation went away.

The North Koreans are starving because communism was a failed experiment in economics, and they are too foolish to admit that.




slightly off-topic...

here is an essay that asserts that socialism certainly had its problems but was not entirely an economic failure and could compete with comparable capitalist economies: is socialism still on the agenda

and the following debate of the article with a proponent of capitalism: Horowitz / Albert Debates

worth reading the exchange between horowitz and albert.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Vvellum]
    #6153719 - 10/10/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think it's too off topic. It is important to ask whether or not sanctions against North Korea are a good idea, after all, and that's what the Michael Albert article gets at the heart of.

Personally, I think he would agree that North Korea is clearly a case of Soviet Socialism, or what he would call "Socialism 1" and it needs to go. People are suffering there because of this horrible system, and the blame belongs squarely on the oligarchy in power within North Korea.

As for the rest of the debate, I read it, but it wasn't really my cup of tea.

I decided to study economics instead of political science because I like to work with models and numbers, not morals and emotions. One of my favorite quotes by an economist is Steven Levitt telling Jon Stewart "Once your remove the moral aspects, the question of abortion becomes really easy..."

I still question socialism based on the Social Planner's Problem, the neoclassical version of what Hayek would have called the Economic Calculation Problem ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_debate ). Unfortunately, Horowitz isn't very good at describing or elaborating on it, and so Albert never truly addresses it, and when he does it's only to skirt it. I don't blame Albert, because it's really Horowitz's fault for not articulating.

From what limited empirical evidence is available on Participatory Economics (Albert's suggestion), it still seems incapable of solving the Social Planner's Problem. I would point to Venezuela as the example, they have long implemented Participatory Economic principles in cooperative farming, and Chavez has also brought it to factories and other workplaces more recently ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4155936.stm ), and yet this has been accompanied by a complete inability to set efficient prices, and shortages of basic goods as a result. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4599260.stm )

Maybe other nations would have better luck with it, but things don't look good so far.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
    #6153811 - 10/10/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

One of my favorite quotes by an economist is Steven Levitt telling Jon Stewart "Once your remove the moral aspects, the question of abortion becomes really easy..."




Wow! That is nice... going to have to remember that one!

I'm far from an expert in economics or any political "ism", but I always felt that the only way communism/socialism will work is if energy becomes free. Of course, most of the worlds problems would go away if energy were free, so my point is a bit absurd.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
    #6153832 - 10/10/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 6,762
Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: ZippoZ]
    #6154370 - 10/10/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zippoz said:
yup

do you think that there will be any unilateral, or single power i.e. the usa striking back at the country in retailation?




Fucknuckle thinks it will go down like this..............

1 They set off one or two more bigger test Nukes and really piss everybody off

2 We blockade their entire country land, sea and air. Sanctions yeah !that is what we will call it

3 They will become aggressive and fire on something of ours

4 We will bomb them close to stone age just like we always do

5 They will realize there is no recovery and Nukes go into South Korea

6 We lose 80,000 troops,millions of people and we vaporize the entire North Korea people

7 The rest of the region erupts into war and within a few months North America gets Vaporized by Russia and China and them by us



And somewhere in all of this some nuke will find it's way to Israel


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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InvisibleAdden
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Registered: 06/04/03
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #6156076 - 10/10/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Israel has nukes.

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Offlinesnoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.

Registered: 01/20/05
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Adden]
    #6156128 - 10/10/06 09:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Now what? Do you think that NK will come to the peace table and comply with international agreements on nuclear weapons or will they continue to do what ever they want? If they do not agree to comply with international agreements what should the international community do in order to protect their interests? In other words how much should we concede to the North Koreans before force is used to bring them into compliance?

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #6156224 - 10/10/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I would say we should levy economic sanctions on them, but they don't give a fuck about their population anyways.

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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Redstorm]
    #6156270 - 10/10/06 09:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So what if other nations like China or Russia ignore our sanctions and continue to trade with them? As you said they don't care about the population anyway. What to do, if anything, after/if the first round of sanctions fail?

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InvisibleAdden
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #6156328 - 10/10/06 09:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What to do, if anything, after/if the first round of sanctions fail?




Start the launch sequence?

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #6156432 - 10/10/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I dunno. I wouldn't feel sanction would be reasonable anyways; the citizens from NK are already in poor condition as it is. I'm not even sure what we should do. Military strikes are out of the question, though, so far.

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Offlineshroom_me
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6156699 - 10/10/06 11:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

Konnrade said:
You do realize that N. Korea is completely corrupt from the top down, don't you?

A government that is based upon tyranny, intimidation, and keeping the common man subjugated now has the ability of nuclear attack. Considering how miserable their economy is, it's not unfathomable that N. Korea will attempt a landgrab for resources, and with nukes in their arsenal they might use them.



Everything in your post is to be said for the US, as has been previously noted. Consider who imposes the sanctions on that country, then re-think who is really starving them. "Your actions made me hit you" is a stance only a genuine retard would ever defend - tho I do not call you that, but that is reality.
I also don't believe in a "lesser of two evils" stance. Martyr before Murder might be my stance, just came up with that.

Serious question: Is the US' economy any less miserable when it's sitting on an 8.3-8.5 trillion dollar debt? Isn't any wellness it has only an illusion? Isn't it true that it is actually in the worst position of all?





Good Point Disco Cat, I would like to add: where does the US get off thinking they are in control of the whole world. If anyone has the world by the balls its China. They have what it takes to become the strongest country(if not allready) We are in debt to them up to our eyeballs(as well as other countries) I'll bet once the war is over(unlikely) or settles down and we start to feel the effect of our debt in this country we'll be begging some "crazy" man to take us out. Like a great man once said "Blow Them Off The Map!"

Edited by shroom_me (10/10/06 11:59 PM)

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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Economist]
    #6160956 - 10/12/06 04:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
No offense, but do you follow the news?

China slips them food aid in massive quantities EVERY YEAR, more than enough to make up the deficit, and they're still starving. Their economy is grossly mismanaged, but what do you expect for a regime that clings to an oppressive, disproven idea?

The Soviets weren't able to produce enough food to feed their people (see Soviet dependence on US grain imports during the 1970s and 1980s) and they actually had enough arable land to do so. The same thing happened in China. It's no coincidence that Deng Xiaoping introduced capitalistic reforms beginning immediately after Mao's death in 1976 and guess what...the starvation went away.

The North Koreans are starving because communism was a failed experiment in economics, and they are too foolish to admit that.



I was suprisingly unaware of all the food aid they receive, sorry.

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OfflineRoker
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6160971 - 10/12/06 04:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm taking bets that it wasn't a nuke.

A small nuke is the most sophisticated weapon there is, and the north koreans certainly don't have a sophisticated nuclear weapons industry. The detonation was sub kiloton.

I smell fish...


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Invisiblequiver
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Disco Cat]
    #6160988 - 10/12/06 04:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

*dolphin and whale...canned


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: Roker]
    #6161002 - 10/12/06 04:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Roker said:
I'm taking bets that it wasn't a nuke.

A small nuke is the most sophisticated weapon there is, and the north koreans certainly don't have a sophisticated nuclear weapons industry. The detonation was sub kiloton.

I smell fish...




Physically small nukes are hard, this nuke (if it was a nuke) was probably the size of truck and did not go off properly, thats not hard.

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Offlineshroom_me
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Re: N. Korea Has detonated a nuclear weapon [Re: psilomonkey]
    #6161153 - 10/12/06 06:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

North Korea is just blowing smoke. Even if they have a nuke it compares nothing to our 100,000 so bring it!

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