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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Redstorm]
    #6154847 - 10/10/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No, but that was the initial impetus, as you are well aware. And I don't think the people being fought now are idealists much either. Idealists are what they consider useful idiots in their desire to grab power.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Economist]
    #6157004 - 10/11/06 02:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
a majority of Vietnamese did not support the US-imposed change in government.

Meanwhile, a majority of Iraqis (61%) believe that ousting Saddam was the right thing to do, even AFTER taking the hardships of the past 3 years into account. (source: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/249.php?nid=&id=&pnt=249&lb=hmpg2 )



Iraqis are happy that Saddam is out, but unhappy that the US is still in. A recent poll shows that six in 10 Iraqis approve of attacks on U.S.-led forces.

Quote:

while US morale may be waning, Iraqi morale is growing. A majority of Iraqis (53%) now believe that their own security forces are strong enough to deal with insurgency. (source: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/250.php?nid=&id=&pnt=250&lb=hmpg1 ) In January, the percentage who believed their security forces were strong enough was only 39.



That doesn't mean their morale is improving. I would argue the opposite; it means they think it's time for the US to leave. But as your poll shows, 78% don't think the US would leave if asked.

Quote:

There's also the way US society is percieving veterans.



Americans have learned to direct their anger at politicians rather than soldiers. However, the anger over the war Iraq clearly exists.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6157031 - 10/11/06 02:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Numerous times we were informed that Saddam had a growing WMD program and that he posed an immediate threat WMD. This has been proven to be complete bullshit, that was the justification they used to win over the public, fear. I am sorry that one link did not work in my previous post yet you say that this is the usual state of affairs, trying to undermine my personal credibility does not alter the fact that the public were misled. That link has been strangely taken down by yahoo news, it was Condi rice claiming a Saddam 9/11 link, heres another link. enjoy and another.

February 8, 2003, President's Radio Address
One of the greatest dangers we face is that weapons of mass destruction might be passed to terrorists who would not hesitate to use those weapons. Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases.

We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner. This network runs a poison and explosive training camp in northeast Iraq, and many of its leaders are known to be in Baghdad.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030208.html

neocons: 911-Iraq
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that--it's been pretty well confirmed that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack. Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them, we simply don't know at this point, but that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.

And this from James Woolsey, former CIA director: "We know that at Salman Pak, on the southern edge of Baghdad, five different eyewitnesses--three Iraqi defectors and two American U.N. Inspectors--have said--and now there are aerial photographs to show it--a Boeing 707 that was used for training of hijackers, including non-Iraqi hijackers trained very secretly to take over airplanes with knives."

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/9-11_saddam_quotes.html

Bush: Saddam Aids al-Qaida
Jan. 9, 2003Bush
"Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qaida." (more)

Bush: Taking Necessary Action Aganist Terrorism
Mar. 18, 2003G.W. Bush
Bush said that his use of the Congressional authorization to wage war against Iraq is consistent with the international effort against terrorism, "including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001." (more)
US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice - September 2003:
"Saddam was a danger in the region where the 9/11 threat emerged."

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - November 2002:
"Within a week, or a month, Saddam could give his WMD to al-Qaeda."

Bush (Jan. 28, 2003): Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.
Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes.
State of the Union Address
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html
June 17, 2004,
THE PRESIDENT: The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda, because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. This administration never said that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated between Saddam and al Qaeda. We did say there were numerous contacts between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. For example, Iraqi intelligence officers met with bin Laden, the head of al Qaeda, in the Sudan. There's numerous contacts between the two.
Heres another link and here is a nice video for you. Here is a direct quote from Bush himself followed by a link to the exchange.
"And Zarqawi, an al-Qaeda operative, was in Baghdad. He's the guy that ordered the killing of a US diplomat... There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al-Qaeda ties."
link So you see Zappa your problem here is that you are dead wrong.

Edited by Andy21 (10/11/06 03:36 AM)

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6157361 - 10/11/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As usual, your links either don't work or don't support your assertions. I defy you, as I have defied several others, to provide me with a Bush quote tying Iraq to 9/11 or that WMD information was fabricated. Until you can do so I will stand by what I wrote, to wit, that you cannot understand what was said.




Bush Defends Assertions of Iraq-Al Qaeda Relationship.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineEconomist
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6158635 - 10/11/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Iraqis are happy that Saddam is out, but unhappy that the US is still in. A recent poll shows that six in 10 Iraqis approve of attacks on U.S.-led forces

That doesn't mean their morale is improving. I would argue the opposite; it means they think it's time for the US to leave. But as your poll shows, 78% don't think the US would leave if asked.

Americans have learned to direct their anger at politicians rather than soldiers. However, the anger over the war Iraq clearly exists.



Okay...

But my post was on how Iraq is different from Vietnam. You can disagree with some of my assertions, but so far as I can tell, none of your disagreements make Iraq any more like Vietnam...

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #6158924 - 10/11/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As usual, your links either don't work or don't support your assertions. I defy you, as I have defied several others, to provide me with a Bush quote tying Iraq to 9/11 or that WMD information was fabricated. Until you can do so I will stand by what I wrote, to wit, that you cannot understand what was said.




Bush Defends Assertions of Iraq-Al Qaeda Relationship.




Your link doesn't supply either examples. To wit:

""The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda: because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," Bush said after a Cabinet meeting. As evidence, he cited Iraqi intelligence officers' meeting with bin Laden in Sudan. "There's numerous contacts between the two," Bush said."

This does not in amy way constitute a statement by Bush that Iraq was tied to 9/11 and in fact the article goes on to point out the accuracy of Bush's statements.

"The panel's staff reported on Wednesday that there were contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda,"

Reading is FUNdamental. Try it sometime.


--------------------

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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6159027 - 10/11/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

And of course, reading the entire article would unearth this quote from Bush --

Quote:

"This administration never said that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated between Saddam and al Qaeda," Bush said. "We did say there were numerous contacts between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda."




It is indisputable there were links between Iraq and Al Qaeda (as well as other terrorists). Time, Newsweek, the New York Times, MacLean's magazine, the Washington Post and numerous other US media sources (stretching back to at least the mid-Nineties) printed many articles detailing these links.

Reading comprehension is a valuable skill to acquire.



Phred


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Phred]
    #6159163 - 10/11/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Why were administration officials continually linking Saddam Hussein to terrorists in the buildup to war if no operational relationship existed?


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zorbman]
    #6159317 - 10/11/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

As you are aware, the reason Australia, Italy, Spain, the UK, the US, Poland and others decided to resume hostilities in Iraq when they did was due to Hussein's failure to abide by even a single one of the terms of the conditional ceasefire agreement signed in 1991. One of the terms of the ceasefire agreement was that the Iraqi government cease supplying aid and safe heaven to members of terorist organizations.





Phred


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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Phred]
    #6160555 - 10/11/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:lol:

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6160562 - 10/11/06 11:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As usual, your links either don't work or don't support your assertions. I defy you, as I have defied several others, to provide me with a Bush quote tying Iraq to 9/11 or that WMD information was fabricated. Until you can do so I will stand by what I wrote, to wit, that you cannot understand what was said.




Bush Defends Assertions of Iraq-Al Qaeda Relationship.




Your link doesn't supply either examples.



You're right. I should have started my post with Andy21's first quote:

Andy21 said: "You are clearly misrepresenting the public record when you say the Iraq war was not started under false pretenses."

Andy21 was absolutely correct, and I meant to come to his defense on that, and to disagree with you that he wasn't supporting his assertions. Bush insisted Iraq had ties to Al Queda, but what does that matter if Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11? America had ties to Al Queda as well; we harbored the people responsible for 9/11! Does that make the US was responsible for 9/11?

The Iraq war was started under false pretenses, as Andy21 suggested.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Phred]
    #6160955 - 10/12/06 03:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

As you are aware, the reason Australia, Italy, Spain, the UK, the US, Poland and others decided to resume hostilities in Iraq when they did was due to Hussein's failure to abide by even a single one of the terms of the conditional ceasefire agreement signed in 1991. One of the terms of the ceasefire agreement was that the Iraqi government cease supplying aid and safe heaven to members of terorist organizations.




Is that how they sold the Iraq war to the public?

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6162622 - 10/12/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
Numerous times we were informed that Saddam had a growing WMD program and that he posed an immediate threat



So you should have no problem providing a link to one of those "numerous" examples. I still hear crickets
Quote:



WMD. This has been proven to be complete bullshit, that was the justification they used to win over the public, fear. I am sorry that one link did not work in my previous post yet you say that this is the usual state of affairs, trying to undermine my personal credibility does not alter the fact that the public were misled. That link has been strangely taken down by yahoo news, it was Condi rice claiming a Saddam 9/11 link, heres another link. enjoy and




Sorry, pumpkin it doesn't do that
" US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice - September 2003:
"Saddam was a danger in the region where the 9/11 threat emerged."
Quote:




another.




That one fails as well to establish any Bush administration assertion that Saddam was involved in 9/11. The statement simply was never made.
Quote:


February 8, 2003, President's Radio Address
One of the greatest dangers we face is that weapons of mass destruction might be passed to terrorists who would not hesitate to use those weapons. Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases.

We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner. This network runs a poison and explosive training camp in northeast Iraq, and many of its leaders are known to be in Baghdad.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030208.html




Please, point out to me where he mentioned 9/11
Quote:


neocons: 911-Iraq
VICE PRES. CHENEY: Well, what we now have that's developed since you and I last talked, Tim, of course, was that report that--it's been pretty well confirmed that he did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack. Now, what the purpose of that was, what transpired between them, we simply don't know at this point, but that's clearly an avenue that we want to pursue.

And this from James Woolsey, former CIA director: "We know that at Salman Pak, on the southern edge of Baghdad, five different eyewitnesses--three Iraqi defectors and two American U.N. Inspectors--have said--and now there are aerial photographs to show it--a Boeing 707 that was used for training of hijackers, including non-Iraqi hijackers trained very secretly to take over airplanes with knives."



Still not there
Quote:



www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/9-11_saddam_quotes.html

Bush: Saddam Aids al-Qaida
Jan. 9, 2003Bush
"Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qaida." (more)

Bush: Taking Necessary Action Aganist Terrorism
Mar. 18, 2003G.W. Bush
Bush said that his use of the Congressional authorization to wage war against Iraq is consistent with the international effort against terrorism, "including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001." (more)
US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice - September 2003:
"Saddam was a danger in the region where the 9/11 threat emerged."

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - November 2002:
"Within a week, or a month, Saddam could give his WMD to al-Qaeda."

Bush (Jan. 28, 2003): Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help them develop their own.
Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known. We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes.
State of the Union Address
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html
June 17, 2004,
THE PRESIDENT: The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda, because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. This administration never said that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated between Saddam and al Qaeda. We did say there were numerous contacts between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. For example, Iraqi intelligence officers met with bin Laden, the head of al Qaeda, in the Sudan. There's numerous contacts between the two.
Heres another link and here is a nice video for you. Here is a direct quote from Bush himself followed by a link to the exchange.
"And Zarqawi, an al-Qaeda operative, was in Baghdad. He's the guy that ordered the killing of a US diplomat... There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al-Qaeda ties."
link So you see Zappa your problem here is that you are dead wrong.




No, grasshopper, you are. Not one of your links answered the demand that you show where they said saddam had a hand in 9/11. Your failure makes my point.

As a history lesson, for those who missed it live, prior to 9/11 there was a strong movement afoot to end the sanctions and inspections against Iraq. This was primarily driven by France and Russia, both permanent members of the UN security council and both being bribed by saddam. They had contracts in line for when sanctions were to be lifted and were pushing for it in spite of his non-compliance with the terms of his surrender. Anybody who believes that he gave a shit about the suffering of his people is an utter dupe and anybody who believes he wouldn't go back to his old tricks given the chance is worse. Further, the whole notion that "the American People" were misled into going to war is bogus and moot. By your own failure to provide the quote from the administration tieing saddam to 9/11 and by the fact that every intelligence agency in the world believed he had WMDs, including possibly himself, it is clear that there was no "misleading" going on. The only possible source for misunderstanding what was said was the stupidity of the listener, not any so called inaccurate statements. The mootness comes into play because of the most obvious fact that the American People did not vote on the issue of going to war. It was the Congress, damn near all of them lawyers who are quite attentive to specific wording and make their living on it, who voted for it. Members of Congress with access to the same information as Bush, many of them Democrats, voted for the war. Were they misled? Puhleeze. Do you really think any of them would stand up and say, if not for partisan flackery, that the cowboy retard outfoxed them? This notion is so absurd that it doesn't come close to passing the smell test.


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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
Male

Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6164351 - 10/12/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
Quote:

As you are aware, the reason Australia, Italy, Spain, the UK, the US, Poland and others decided to resume hostilities in Iraq when they did was due to Hussein's failure to abide by even a single one of the terms of the conditional ceasefire agreement signed in 1991. One of the terms of the ceasefire agreement was that the Iraqi government cease supplying aid and safe heaven to members of terorist organizations.




Is that how they sold the Iraq war to the public?




No.

And Saddam did not violate all of the cease-fire conditions as Phred claimed since he had no weapons of mass destruction.

The stated reason for the war was that Saddam Hussein had developed weapons of mass destruction which posed a grave threat to America.

The WMD argument was hyped by George Bush and Tony Blair in an attempt to turn a war of choice into a war of necessity.
This is clear based upon their actions and public statements. I could find quotes like these all day long, but here is a sample discovered after only a couple minutes of searching. Statements like the following were made over and over and over again ad nauseam during the drumbeat for war:

"Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave and gathering danger." Bush, Sept. 12, 2002. (Note the date of this statement.)

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies, and against us." — Vice President Dick Cheney, Aug. 26, 2002.

Cheney has "plausible deniability" on the first statement (even though I am convinced he leaned on the CIA to fit the facts to the policy); The second statement is an opinion disguised as a fact and equally false.

The Bush administration and Tony Blair bum rushed their citizens after 9/11 and fast-talked them into this disastrous war.

And now the chickens have come home to roost.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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