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OfflineAndy21
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Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger
    #6146445 - 10/08/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It seems Dick Cheney never wanted us to know that he and the president have regular meetings with Henry Kissinger. Here is a video of Bob Woodward on meet the press talking about Dick and his potty mouth.

Edited by Andy21 (10/08/06 12:31 PM)

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Invisiblebuckwheat
Cynically Insane

Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6146454 - 10/08/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

How cute is that our heads of country are meeting with the Neo Malthusian, head Blideberger with a fake German accent Kissenger. :laugh:

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: buckwheat]
    #6146550 - 10/08/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well many are often saying Iraq is the new Vietnam, he may have some good advice on how to conduct an endless bloody war. Here is another link to a 60 minutes interview with the author, it contains a few seconds of audio of Cheney talking about his meetings with Kissinger.

Edited by Andy21 (10/08/06 01:21 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6146596 - 10/08/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
Well many are often saying Iraq is the new Vietnam,




You can always find an idiot who will say anything. Quite often, you can find lots of them. For an illustration of this phenomenon go here:
http://www.dailykos.com/

See also anything by Alex Jones.


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6146676 - 10/08/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

even a farright guy such as yourself has to be questioning iraq at this point...i mean come on

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6146678 - 10/08/06 02:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The people at Kos and their ilk did great work in the campaign to get Lieberman off the democratic ticket, they seem both politically informed and very active. Although I must say I am tired of their endless noise concerning Mark Foley wanting to hump 16 year olds. As far as Jones goes I completely agree, he sometimes finds interesting documents but I just find his routine boring and he jumps to wild conclusions based on his own prejudices. Whats your take on Iraq and why Kissinger is so involved with this administration?

Edited by Andy21 (10/08/06 02:26 PM)

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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6146729 - 10/08/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

you know, i used to never subscribe to the idea of iraq being the next vietnam, but nowadays i'm not so sure those ideas are to far off. let's look at the similarities. Vietnam was a civil war..iraq is now a civil war. The morale was bad in vietnam, and it's bad and getting worse in iraq. Both wars started as a result of misleading situations created by our government. There was no time table or realistic exit strategy in vietnam which is of course exactly the same for iraq. the vietmanese were driven by a communist ideology - the iraqis are driven by muslim ideologies. The american public lost support for the vietnam war while our "leaders" trudged on saying we couldn't give up. the same thing is happening right now.

Honestly i see a lot more similarities than i do differences. We're fighting idealistic guerrillas in a civil war that we got into based on a lie and there is no real way to get out of it other than withdrawl or absolute unconditional victory which could take years to accomplish. the only real difference i see is in the scale of the war (body count)

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OfflineAndy21
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #6146828 - 10/08/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There is of course another aspect to Iraq being a civil war, was the civil war engineered in order to justify our continued presence to ensure security? Recall the incident of September 19th 2005 in which two British SAS men dressed as arabs were caught by the Iraqi police and accused planting bombs in Basra. The two men were imprisoned to await questioning, yet within hours the jail was stormed by 10 tanks and helicopter gunships and the men were whisked away. link link A similar event was documented a few weeks later involving Americans here
I am not saying that this 'is' the case, it is just an interesting hypothetical. There was an interesting opinion article from the Guardian that I will quote.
Quote:

Bush Didn't Bungle Iraq
by Greg Palast
The Guardian, March 20, 2006

Get off it. All the carping, belly-aching and complaining about George Bush's incompetence in Iraq, from both the Left and now the Right, is just dead wrong.
On the third anniversary of the tanks rolling over Iraq's border, most of the 59 million Homer Simpsons who voted for Bush are beginning to doubt if his mission was accomplished.
But don't kid yourself -- Bush and his co-conspirator, Dick Cheney, accomplished exactly what they set out to do. In case you've forgotten what their real mission was, let me remind you of White House spokesman Ari Fleisher's original announcement, three years ago, launching of what he called,
"Operation Iraqi Liberation."
O.I.L. How droll of them, how cute. Then, Karl Rove made the giggling boys in the White House change it to "OIF" -- Operation Iraqi Freedom. But the 101st Airborne wasn't sent to Basra to get its hands on Iraq's OIF.
"It's about oil," Robert Ebel told me. Who is Ebel? Formerly the CIA's top oil analyst, he was sent by the Pentagon, about a month before the invasion, to a secret confab in London with Saddam's former oil minister to finalize the plans for "liberating" Iraq's oil industry. In London, Bush's emissary Ebel also instructed Ibrahim Bahr al-Ulum, the man the Pentagon would choose as post-OIF oil minister for Iraq, on the correct method of disposing Iraq's crude.
And what did the USA want Iraq to do with Iraq's oil? The answer will surprise many of you: and it is uglier, more twisted, devilish and devious than anything imagined by the most conspiracy-addicted blogger. The answer can be found in a 323-page plan for Iraq's oil secretly drafted by the State Department. Our team got a hold of a copy; how, doesn't matter. The key thing is what's inside this thick Bush diktat: a directive to Iraqis to maintain a state oil company that will "enhance its relationship with OPEC."
Enhance its relationship with OPEC??? How strange: the government of the United States ordering Iraq to support the very OPEC oil cartel which is strangling our nation with outrageously high prices for crude.
Specifically, the system ordered up by the Bush cabal would keep a lid on Iraq's oil production -- limiting Iraq's oil pumping to the tight quota set by Saudi Arabia and the OPEC cartel.
There you have it. Yes, Bush went in for the oil -- not to get MORE of Iraq's oil, but to prevent Iraq producing TOO MUCH of it.
You must keep in mind who paid for George's ranch and Dick's bunker: Big Oil. And Big Oil -- and their buck-buddies, the Saudis -- don't make money from pumping more oil, but from pumping LESS of it. The lower the supply, the higher the price.
It's Economics 101. The oil industry is run by a cartel, OPEC, and what economists call an "oligopoly" -- a tiny handful of operators who make more money when there's less oil, not more of it. So, every time the "insurgents" blow up a pipeline in Basra, every time Mad Mahmoud in Tehran threatens to cut supply, the price of oil leaps. And Dick and George just LOVE it.
Dick and George didn't want more oil from Iraq, they wanted less. I know some of you, no matter what I write, insist that our President and his Veep are on the hunt for more crude so you can cheaply fill your family Hummer; that somehow, these two oil-patch babies are concerned that the price of gas in the USA is bumping up to $3 a gallon.
No so, gentle souls. Three bucks a gallon in the States (and a quid a litre in Britain) means colossal profits for Big Oil, and that makes Dick's ticker go pitty-pat with joy. The top oily-gopolists, the five largest oil companies, pulled in $113 billion in profit in 2005 -- compared to a piddly $34 billion in 2002 before Operation Iraqi Liberation. In other words, it's been a good war for Big Oil.
As per Plan Bush, Bahr Al-Ulum became Iraq's occupation oil minister; the conquered nation "enhanced its relationship with OPEC;" and the price of oil, from Clinton peace-time to Bush war-time, shot up 317%.
In other words, on the third anniversary of invasion, we can say the attack and occupation is, indeed, a Mission Accomplished. However, it wasn't America's mission, nor the Iraqis'. It was an Mission Accomplished for OPEC and Big Oil.




Edited by Andy21 (10/08/06 03:37 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6146846 - 10/08/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
The people at Kos and their ilk did great work in the campaign to get Lieberman off the democratic ticket, they seem both politically informed and very active. Although I must say I am tired of their endless noise concerning Mark Foley wanting to hump 16 year olds. As far as Jones goes I completely agree, he sometimes finds interesting documents but I just find his routine boring and he jumps to wild conclusions based on his own prejudices. Whats your take on Iraq and why Kissinger is so involved with this administration?




Great work. I loved their effort re: Lieberman. One less Democrat senator. You do know that Lieberman is fairly well ahead in the polls and will win?

Foley's gone. Good riddance to smelly trash.

Kissinger? I despise him. I'm not sure that he has much to do with the administartion. They have actually hired and pay thousands and thousands of people. He is not one of them. His role seems to be limited to casual conversation.

Iraq is pretty much how I figured it. Easy military, tough reconstruction.


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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #6146856 - 10/08/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
Honestly i see a lot more similarities than i do differences.



I would respectfully suggest that you're not looking in the right places.

We could begin with the "previous administration". In Vietnam, the US began by supporting President Diem, despite his crackdowns on religious groups, politically motivated arrests, and general corruption. Once he was finally gone, the US proceded to help President Thieu manipulate elections in order to maintain some semblance of democracy, simply put, a majority of Vietnamese did not support the US-imposed change in government.

Meanwhile, a majority of Iraqis (61%) believe that ousting Saddam was the right thing to do, even AFTER taking the hardships of the past 3 years into account. (source: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/249.php?nid=&id=&pnt=249&lb=hmpg2 )

Then there's the scope of the thing. Vietnam: over 500,000 American troops deployed at a time, a draft, over 58,000 dead or missing.

Iraq: Roughly 150,000 troops deployed at any given time, all volunteers, no draft, and over 2,700 dead.

Furthermore, while US morale may be waning, Iraqi morale is growing. A majority of Iraqis (53%) now believe that their own security forces are strong enough to deal with insurgency. (source: http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/250.php?nid=&id=&pnt=250&lb=hmpg1 ) In January, the percentage who believed their security forces were strong enough was only 39.

There's also the way US society is percieving veterans. When getting home from Vietnam, most veterans were viewed negatively by a significant segment of the population, and went on to be protrayed poorly by Hollywood. Veterans from the Iraq war are met with a great deal of support, and even those who do not approve of the war tend to respect, or at least not go after, veterans.

There have also been several arguments made that the Vietnam war was bad for the US economy, causing in part the recessions of the 1970s. Clearly the Iraq war is not harming the US economy, which has continued to grow throughout the conflict.

There are other differences too, one of the links I posted above shows that a majority of Iraqis believe that there will still be "One Iraq" years from now, whereas the Vietnam war was inherently designed to create two separate Vietnams. The US military has done better in recruitment this past year than it did even before the war in Iraq, whereas draft dodging was a major problem throughout Vietnam.

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6146887 - 10/08/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If the people of Connecticut want to elect Lieberman thats really their concern. He is not a Democrat, the Democratic party of his state voted against him because he did not represent their values. Lieberman's true colours are shown by the way the republicans responded to his loss, also the way the Israelis responded was interesting.
As far as Iraq goes do you think it's worth it?

Edited by Andy21 (10/08/06 04:12 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #6146915 - 10/08/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
you know, i used to never subscribe to the idea of iraq being the next vietnam, but nowadays i'm not so sure those ideas are to far off. let's look at the similarities. Vietnam was a civil war..iraq is now a civil war.




Not a civil war and your own description illustrates a difference, not a similarity
Quote:



The morale was bad in vietnam, and it's bad and getting worse in iraq.




The morale was horrible in Vietnam, I have not seen it to be bad in Iraq. No soldier ever wants to be away but that doesn't bespeak bad morale. Sorry, but lack of slave soldiers makes this a very different situation.
Quote:




Both wars started as a result of misleading situations created by our government.




Wrong. If you were misled it was through your own inability to understand what was said. Iraq was non compliant with the terms of their surrender. They were also not to be trusted and had evidenced a warlike willingness to attack basicly anyone. This action was a continuation of the first war. Likewise, Vietnam was not begun under false pretenses. It was prosecuted under overly rosy success estimates to make the "greatest generation" continue to believe that America could just throw its glove on the field and win. Those were the falsitues of the Vietnam War. The Communist threat was by no means fake. Another group of people openly dedicated to our destruction. Like the Islamofascists and their fellow travelers.
Quote:


There was no time table or realistic exit strategy in vietnam which is of course exactly the same for iraq.




The only exit strategy (and I have no idea where this idiotic concept ever evolved) is victory. We win. We set up a fairly functional government. We leave. Anybody who expects more needs to provide me with an example of one time in history when there ever was one.
Quote:





the vietmanese were driven by a communist ideology - the iraqis are driven by muslim ideologies.




Two falsehoods. Some Vietnamese were driven by a communist ideology and wished to impose it on others. The Iraq war was a result of Saddam's international adventurism. It had nothing to do with Muslim ideology other than the fact that he was a scumbag who was quite willing to use Muslim lunatics to his own end, which was to harm us
Quote:




The american public lost support for the vietnam war while our "leaders" trudged on saying we couldn't give up. the same thing is happening right now.




This is a history book fiction. The American public was quite willing to soldier on for far too long. The American public was what drove that war. Most Americans didn't want to quit, they wanted to win, but the leadership was unwilling to take the steps necessary. Democrats. If it hadn't been for the draft, we might have prevailed. But that's another argument.
Quote:



Honestly i see a lot more similarities than i do differences. We're fighting idealistic guerrillas in a civil war that we got into based on a lie and there is no real way to get out of it other than withdrawl or absolute unconditional victory which could take years to accomplish. the only real difference i see is in the scale of the war (body count)




I hope I have made it clear that we are not fighting idealists, we are fighting opportunists, against largely foreign invaders and deposed elements and that the reasons were clear in both cases and that there is never an exit strategy other than victory, ever, anywhere. The scale in Iraq is in fact much larger, so you have completely misrepresented that as well.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6146952 - 10/08/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
If the people of Connecticut want to elect Lieberman thats really their concern. He is not a Democrat, the Democratic party of his state voted against him because he did not represent their values. Lieberman's true colours are shown by the way the republicans responded to his loss, also the way the Israelis responded was interesting.
As far as Iraq goes do you think it's worth it?




The only position Lieberman differs from the Party on is Iraq. He is one of the most liberal senators ever. And most Dems voted for the war. He just has principals and realizes that once in you must win. He also took Clinton to task for porking a fatty when he should've been attending. That's probably the biggest reason he was tabbed to be Gore's Veep but since the idiot didn't win his principles were no longer useful
The Republicans seem to be taking a principled stand here and recognizing what the lead issue is. The Israelis have their own interests at heart and I respect and support them against murderous thugs who think they can rewrite internationally accepted borders with violence.
As far as Iraq being worth it? Yes. It was mandatory and long overdue. Like 26 years overdue. Jimmy Panties started this by allowing Iran to kidnap embassy employees. If you don't think things would be different if we had responded appropriately at that time you are crazy.

This is a prime example of the Dem party takeover by lunatics. They got a popular senator off the ticket and now there will be one less dem senator from CT. I love the KosKids. They are political suicide. They have about as good a chance of picking a winner as Pat Robertson.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6146978 - 10/08/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Saying that the war in Vietnam and Iraq was and is not being fought by idealists is absurd. In Vietnam, it was a mixture of nationalism and political ideology. In Iraq, it's nationalism and religion. I don't even understand how you can attempt to dispute this.

Foreign countries don't like being occupied; that's just reality.

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OfflineAndy21
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6146983 - 10/08/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wrong. If you were misled it was through your own inability to understand what was said. Iraq was non compliant with the terms of their surrender. They were also not to be trusted and had evidenced a warlike willingness to attack basicly anyone.




You are clearly misrepresenting the public record when you say the Iraq war was not started under false pretenses. Time and time again attempts were made by the administration to associate Iraq with 9/11 , a link which has been admitted recently by Bush himself to be non existant. Collin Powell gave a briefing in which he presented misleading information to the UN, look at these slides it's a fucking joke. The British government produced a dossier on Iraq which was a mish mash of plagiarised old academic materials in order to justify the invasion link.Tony Blair claimed that Iraq could deploy WMD's in 45 minutes bullshit.

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OfflineAndy21
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6147009 - 10/08/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I cannot see how any of us are in a position to make statements concerning troop morale. I see letters from troops all over the net, very few of them seem happy. Got any decent polls?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Redstorm]
    #6154783 - 10/10/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Saying that the war in Vietnam and Iraq was and is not being fought by idealists is absurd. In Vietnam, it was a mixture of nationalism and political ideology. In Iraq, it's nationalism and religion. I don't even understand how you can attempt to dispute this.




No, in Vietnam it was a communist north leadership at the behest of a communist China and a communist USSR seeking to confront the US. The S. Vietnamese weren't idealists, they just wanted to be left alone. In Iraq, similarly, there was nothing idealistic about Saddam's adventurism. It was cold hard pragmatism and opportunism that made him the thug he was. Nothing idealistic there at all. I hope you can see why I might dispute it now.
Quote:



Foreign countries don't like being occupied; that's just reality.




Kuwait didn't like it much at all. The failure was in not deposing saddam then. Better late than never.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6154810 - 10/10/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
Quote:

Wrong. If you were misled it was through your own inability to understand what was said. Iraq was non compliant with the terms of their surrender. They were also not to be trusted and had evidenced a warlike willingness to attack basicly anyone.




You are clearly misrepresenting the public record when you say the Iraq war was not started under false pretenses. Time and time again attempts were made by the administration to associate Iraq with 9/11 , a link which has been admitted recently by Bush himself to be non existant. Collin Powell gave a briefing in which he presented misleading information to the UN, look at these slides it's a fucking joke. The British government produced a dossier on Iraq which was a mish mash of plagiarised old academic materials in order to justify the invasion link.Tony Blair claimed that Iraq could deploy WMD's in 45 minutes bullshit.




As usual, your links either don't work or don't support your assertions. I defy you, as I have defied several others, to provide me with a Bush quote tying Iraq to 9/11 or that WMD information was fabricated. Until you can do so I will stand by what I wrote, to wit, that you cannot understand what was said.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: Andy21]
    #6154815 - 10/10/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
I cannot see how any of us are in a position to make statements concerning troop morale. I see letters from troops all over the net, very few of them seem happy. Got any decent polls?




No soldier is ever "happy". That is irrelevant to morale.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Dick Cheney unhappy at being quoted concerning Kissinger [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6154827 - 10/10/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are we still fighting Saddam?

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