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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
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Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #613068 - 04/19/02 06:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

It has been said that for the duly prepared, the unmitigated Light of Eternity is Heavenly, the Beatific Vision; but for the ill-prepared, That same Light is Hell. To die to selfishness while yet in this life, and be 'filled with the Holy Spirit,' which is to say, with Christ, and be increasingly motivated by Compassion, IS the life of Heaven. Heaven is not a reward for being a moral goody-two-shoes, the reality of selfless service to others - of altruistic Love - Compassion, is its own reward. In this place, one transcends one's puny ego-desires and acts on behalf of other beings. One is detached from one's own ego-desires and responds with selfless action.

Theologically, Hell refers to alienation from God. One must be aware of something extremely negative, but this too, like Heaven, does not begin after death, it begins in this life as well. To be evil, to be disconnected to humans, living creatures and the Earth itself is alienation. To be without empathy, sympathy and compassion is to treat others AS radically other - as objects other than oneself (which one considers an object as well). When one experiences the life of God in one's own being, one recognizes it in other beings as well. The Reality of Love in its transcendental sense is the same Love in all beings ("In God we live and move and have our being") because it is the Ground of Being - the metaphysical matrix from which our beings emerge like 'individual' waves out of an ocean of consciousness.

Speaking of God as 'a being' instead of the Ground of Being is deceptive. We then enjoin other 'beings' which include the entire celestial and infernal hierarchies of beings (the angelic and demonic 'beings'). This is the language of mythology, and one does well to understand this lest one begin to ask (as the Scholastic theologians did) "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?," or who is the Chief Devil, and how are his legions arranged? Isaiah 45 speaks about God being the creator of evil. Jung suggested that the Devil is God's "shadow," or dark side, but if "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all," we have evil left as a created reality, not the nature and essence of God. Evil is a creation, and like leaven in bread, all of creation is tainted by it. It is what separates the Creator from the creation, which is why we must take the bad with the good in this plave of duality.

The Devil (D'evil) is a symbolic figure, a personification of that which frustrates and destroys goodness, beauty, truth. It is separation from God. It is the enemy, the Adversary (Hebrew: Satan). It has its place, and believers ask in prayer with all seriousness, "deliver us from evil," from all that is a horror to human life.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #613089 - 04/19/02 06:51 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Soooooooooo.....Could God forgive the devil?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #613096 - 04/19/02 06:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

YESSSSSSSS SIR...... Gods will forgive Satan because he is one of them..

All praise to the Satan Lord Of the Light.

CACA man I love you.........You show me the light...Im one of you now...
Now To your knees and shave your head before His Majesty Lucifer One and Only
To the light and fire

---------weird------------


--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind


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Anonymous

Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #613102 - 04/19/02 07:04 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Could God forgive himself? For the devil is a manifestation of God.
Yes, of course, God can do whatever he/she/it damn well pleases. He breaks his own rules all the time (at least he does in the stories of believers).


Edited by evolving (04/19/02 07:30 PM)


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: Swami]
    #613108 - 04/19/02 07:18 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

swami, please stop side-stepping the question.

there are three appropriate answers:

a. Yes

b. No

c. I don't know


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Anonymous

Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: raytrace]
    #613115 - 04/19/02 07:27 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Ha ha ha.


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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #613598 - 04/20/02 09:01 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Who cares if it that has been said? I'll tell you what God has said, which is the only thing anyone can trust to be true: In the end days, there will be alot of apostasy, which is twisting of God's word, so all of the contemplation and trying to make the end result hurt less is wrong.You are deceived if you believe that simply living with God in your life means you're in Heaven. That is what leads you to Heaven. That is the "narrow path" to salvation. The path is not the destination. The Bible tells of what is going to happen, so take the scales off of your eyes and see clearly. Hell is a place of eternal torment and gnashing of teeth, as the Bible says.
The fact that evil exists is not that which separates us from God. The devil was in existence before man fell. We're alive now trying to get back into God's favor. Some people get lost out here and forget their past. The devil wants you to believe in a scientific view of time, where you will die and time will just flow on and on and on, which is wrong. This civilization will soon end. After that, the Earth will be washed with fire and after that, the Earth and heavens will be replaced. Adam and Eve sinned, because the devil tricked them into sinning- not because the Devil is the manifestation of this or that, but because he hates humans, is jealous of them and wants to drag us down with him. I know this because of the fact that after Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire, anyone who is with God will exist eternally with Him, never to be disturbed again by evil. The devil is not symbolic. He is a force that tries with all his wordly power to get you to stray from God's path. It would do you best to understand that.

I have to move on.


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: SherlockDrubu]
    #615677 - 04/20/02 11:04 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

If you go to hell and aren't on Satan's side, then where do you go?

shit... i don't want to be left without after-life accomodation!


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: raytrace]
    #613673 - 04/20/02 11:09 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

there are three appropriate answers:

a. Yes

b. No

c. I don't know

The question itself doesn't make sense to me. Can your left hand forgive your right hand? I will pick [c.] just so that you may relax.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: Swami]
    #613737 - 04/20/02 12:38 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

i'm quite chilled actually :smile: 


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: CACA]
    #613875 - 04/20/02 03:29 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I will not discuss theology with anyone who is reading Scriptures with a Concrete Operational thinking ability. Formal Operational Thinking is required. If you take this as an attack, you are incorrect. It is simply that you are not ready to use deductive logic, nor are you willing or able to understand the writing styles of Hebrews two or more millennia removed from us. Fear and clinging to words that were never intended to impart literal, historical accuracy. It is not a strong faith that hangs on every word, in English, with a 21st century predilection for scientific and historical accuracy - it is a weak faith. And the threat to such weak faith invariably results in anger of a fanatical variety among so-called Christians, Jews and Muslims.

The apocalypse was mistakenly believed by the author known as Paul to be immanent. Two millennia later, it has not arrived. The apocalytic literature is extensive, but only the Revelation of John was included in the canon. Your faith is in the counsel that determined which books would make up 'The Bible' as it appears today. Ever read any of the other Gospels, Testaments and books of the Christian Apocrypha? How about the Jewish Pseudepigrapha, like the Books of Enoch, which are only mentioned tangentially in the New Testament ("giants in those days," and "Enoch walked with God and was not, for God had taken ['translated'] him."). The authors of the Biblical books knew these writings and incorporated them, but the Church Fathers, with their own political agendas neatly eliminated any writings that might have created another brand of Christianity - perhaps one more contemplative like the writngs of John (or recently discovered Thomas) instead of the extraverted, action-oriented, imperialistic crusades that followed.

The very worst of the heresies; the view of Christianity that has and will continue to drive young people away from the Truth of Christ, is the abomination of fundamentalism! That Christianity is a theology with a 'partially realized eschatology,' that has done relatively little to transform the Earth til now. It is over-due for a theological overhaul to a 'realized eschatology,' which seeks the transcendent God in his immanent, incarnational aspect - the Holy Spirit indwelling the faithful.

Now you've done it. You've got me attempting to discuss theology with you. The title of John Shelby Spong's book says it all: 'Christianity Must Change or Die.'
BTW, I never said that evil was symbolic, but the Devil and the doctrine of original sin is a creation of Christian theologians. It is an overlay to the Genesis mythos. The Hebrew notion of evil is the 'yetzer hara,' the evil inclination in humans.

Of course, without a belief that humans are radically depraved from the start, fundamentalists believe the radical need for a Redeemer would lessen.
And although everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, the Scriptures do have Jesus say that 'I am come for the sinners, not the righteous,' and 'Anyone who is not against us is for us.' Whether historically uttered or not, the concept allows righteousness to 'some,' even to Jews and Pagans. Imagine that.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #613888 - 04/20/02 03:49 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

We can gain some insight and 'approach' the phenomenon of evil, seeking to understand rationally. HOWEVER, just because we formulate words into a question does not necessarily mean a rational answer can be obtained. Like a Zen Koan, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?," there is no one, single response; and there is no linguistically rational answer.

It is just presumption to ask any human what God can or can not do. God seems to have evolved the universe from the Big Bang into sub particles, atoms, and matter - all with properties and laws by which matter exists and operates. The spiritual infrastructure, the metaphysics (before physics), also seems to operate with laws. The Devil represents, at least, the realm or state of unforgiveness - radical alienation from God. If the Devil is a fallen angel, and angels are created, then the realm of the fallen angels - Hell - is also created. If Hell is created, it is not eternal, but has a point when it did not exist. If Hell is not created, but is eternal, then it shares something of eternity, which is an attribute of God, not creation. It would seem that by free will, we choose evil, and God does not throw us into Hell. Of course, let us all try very hard not to engage our imagination after those little Chick Publication booklets with cartoons of a glow-in-the-dark-Deity sitting upon a throne before a lake of fire, giving average human 'souls' up 'to the Devil and his angels' to 'burn in everlasting fire.' God is not a sadist, running an infernal holocaust [which reminds me that 4/20 is Hitler's birthday].

Sorry for the ramble. When St. Augustine was asked by a monk 'what was God doing before He created the heavens and the earth?,' St. Augustine alledgedly replied, "Preparing Hell for people who ask presumptuous questions ." : )


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #613911 - 04/20/02 04:25 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I enjoyed your post... :smile: 


--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 24 days
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #614196 - 04/21/02 12:11 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

hey who is this gnostic fella?
greeting friend markos.... hope all is welll witih you and yours.....
ya, i still love those chick publications tracts & "comic" books....
my daughte just finished her "confirmation rites a few motsago,and announced (to me) that she thiks she's an atheist.... said i hear ya kids.. bt try agnosticism fist, hehheh... and ummm don't tell yr grandparents just yet... and a teenager sometimes needs to shed some of he shells... but she sometimes pick up books, so maybe eventuallly she willl open up to some new questions.... if not new answers...
got back copes of BE HERE NOW and +pharmacotheon+ & _the natural mind_ from me bro, hoping to somehow ummmmm "prepare" these crazy teenagers (that i feed pizza to) before they jump into the ummmm deep water.... water, hehheh, mydaughter asked for my beat up ancient copy of _stranger in a strange land_ (my "new" ediitoin went east with pator bob & connie, whoa....) so maybe my little grrl's gonna learn martian...
ummmmm........
anyway, diialog between literalists and "others" (liberals, mystcs, eclectic pantheists, mythophiiliacs, and miscellaneous heretics of whatver stripe) will always be probematicat best.....
ijust tell them price of icewater in helll, and offer to save 'em a seat by the fire...
shalom
namaste
blessed be
shannti om
love
~
~
(p.s. pls ignor typpos/gn)


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineCACA
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Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
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Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #614570 - 04/21/02 11:34 AM (19 years, 7 months ago)

It is you, Mark, who spreads lies and is troubled. What do you know about the Bible,anyway? The devil is NOT symbolic and a projection of a human trait. The Bible indicates that man is not a sinner because he sins, but sins because he is a sinner. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. Since Adam and Eve, we all have been. If the devil is simply symbolic, how could a symbol take 1/3 of the angels of heaven with him to damnation, before humans were sinning creatures? Tell me why the Bible says that the battle is not of the flesh, but spiritual. Tell me why there were demon-possessed- demon being a fallen angel- whom Jesus healed by casting the demons out, who asked if He had come to torment them "before the time".
Your explanation does not cover these events and the multitude of other explanations that back up why Satan is a real entity. Your explanation does, however, demonstrate how Satan, a)works through people and b) deceives people.

Also, we did not exist in the beginning with God, before He created the universe. We humans are created beings and His people will live with Him for eternity. What say you to that? More lies? He also unveils that the earth shall pass and a new earth will be created. This is to last forever as well. Have anymore lies? The Bible says that if you bring someone down, you are doubly damned. Do not spread lies.
The Bible says that as Christ is the head of His Church, you should be the head of your wife. "Orthodox" Christians were wrong if they mistreated their wives, because Jesus in no way mistreats us. He is our provider, our defender, our redeemer.

Look at Islam on the other hand. Allah, who was, and is, a pagan idol, teaches that if you soil yourself with urine after you die, you will go to hell. Allah puts whoever he wants in hell or paradise, righteous or not, and he is right in whatever his judgment is. How this religion of hatred and lies has gone on so long is beyond me, except that the subscribers to the religion must be too full of pride to admit they're wrong.
The very nature of Islam makes it so that the religion is never separated from its politics. It teaches that the only sure bet to go to heaven is to die in battle. Doesn't this seem like a religion based on hatred and persecution and the perpetuation of itself? Satanic prophet- the religon being based on lies from the beginning- Muhammed, edits and changes words of supposedly God-inspired writings, suffers attacks which he questions as demonic, and consumates marriage with a 9-year old girl.
Unveiling Islam, by Ergun Mehmet Caner and Emir Fethi Caner:
"After hearing about the saving grace of Jesus Christ, it became evident to Ergun that Islam was wrong about one seminal thing: there was no way that Jesus could have been a prophet, as Islam taught. Jesus was arrested and imprisoned on a dual indictment- the Romans held Him for isurrection, the Jewish leaders convicted Him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God. Islam, in order to resolve the matter of the Ressurection, teaches that Judas, not Jesus, was crucified, allowing Jesus to appear three days later. Yet even that bit of misinformation doesn't confront the larger issue of Jesus' deity. Even extra-biblical history notes that Jesus claimed to be God, an act of blasphemy, which was a capital offense.
To borrow a motif from the Christian philosopher C.S. Lewis, if Jesus claimed to be God, He couldn't have been a prophet. He could have been insane, like those who wander the streets assuming they are divine[like many people at the shroomery]. But if He were insane, He couldn't have been one of Allah's prophets. He could have been a fraud, deceiving people, but, again, an imposter and charlatan couldn't have been a prophet of Allah. Ergun faced one other option: Jesus was who He said He was: Immanuel-God with us."
Allah is not a different perception of the God of Abraham. Allah is a pagan idol. Islam is a lie and those of you who believe in it, the truth sets you free. You are free to know a God who loves you. You do not have to earn God's love, he loved you first. Your reciprocating faculties yearn for more than what Allah offers. God bless you all.


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


Edited by CACA (04/21/02 11:35 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: CACA]
    #614580 - 04/21/02 12:02 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

It is you, Mark, who spreads lies and is troubled. What do you know about the Bible,anyway?

heh... that's funny


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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: CACA]
    #614648 - 04/21/02 01:33 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

I hate to say this.....
CACA you PSYCHO.....hahaa haa hhaa hee hee hee
Ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand
.......
No really did they pay you for rumbling here?
So people who say that they are one with go are insane,nut,weirdos?
You are so damn stupid and that make me sick.
This Markos dude is 10 times educated,smarter than you and you just cant stop to offend people.
Is that your christianity?
...bloody idiot
Now look what you did to me?
Now I must smoke weed to calm down....pffff
-----weird-----


--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind


Edited by WeirdShroomer (04/21/02 01:58 PM)


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OfflineWeirdShroomer
journeyman
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Sebia
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: WeirdShroomer]
    #614667 - 04/21/02 02:01 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

And Allah is NOT pagan god.....
Get a fuckin dictionary and read what pagan is


--------------------
----weird-----
Smoking dynamite can seriously blow your mind


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: CACA]
    #614756 - 04/21/02 03:43 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

l tell you what God has said, which is the only thing anyone can trust to be true

That is the most arrogant statement that I have ever read. You'll tell me...? God does not need your perverted interpretation. Did you know that he is powerful enough to bypass your weak mind to communicate directly with me?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Could God Forgive the devil? [Re: CACA]
    #614768 - 04/21/02 03:57 PM (19 years, 7 months ago)

Caca appropriate name for one you who just talks about caca!

(Caca in Spanish means shit)

Please go and sell crazy some were else leave us sinners alone, you are not going to get converts here we already sold our souls to Satan ha ha ha !


--------------------


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