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DrunkenAttempt
Chemically Inclined
Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Nova Scotia, CANADA
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Jesus/God/Religion
#6138215 - 10/05/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey guys and gals, was just interested in what some of you think in terms of religion and such...believe? don't believe? what happens when you die? and so on...i'm Atheist and think the majority of religion is more or less of a scam that causes death and destruction in the long run...thats just my opinion, i'm not trying to offend anyone, we all have our own beliefs.
-------------------- Nature is my God, Science is my religion.
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GnuBobo
Frilly Cuffs Extraordinaire
Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 43,754
Loc: Charisma
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Zeus took the form of a swan and raped a girl. I believe in that.
-------------------- Jerry Garcia. JERRY GARCIA! JERRY GARCIA!!!!
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DrunkenAttempt
Chemically Inclined
Registered: 03/10/05
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Nova Scotia, CANADA
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: GnuBobo]
#6138274 - 10/05/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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interesting...
-------------------- Nature is my God, Science is my religion.
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HELLA_TIGHT
Madge the Smoking Vag
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 84,387
Loc: Afghanistan
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I believe Jesus is only for the weak minded. My love comes from true compassion, not from a fear of going to a make believe land of fire after I die.
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Religion is merely mythology and control of the masses. It will drag us down until we either destroy ourselves or somehow get past it and move on to bigger and better things.
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Shattered
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 332
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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I believe in God and Jesus, but I believe in the same way I don't believe, both exist and both don't exist. Religion has not a lot to do with either.
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supra
computerEnthusiast
Registered: 10/26/03
Posts: 6,446
Loc: TEXAS
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Shattered]
#6138317 - 10/05/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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uhhh...ok...that makes no sense
peace
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Gnostic Christian here. I realize it's not considered cool around here to believe in God, and especially in Christ, but I've had my own powerful spiritual experiences which lead me to my beliefs, and I don't expect others to understand such a profoundly personal matter. I believe that Yeshua(Jesus) was an enlightened teacher who realized full Christhood, and taught others how to do the same. The Christian message that most are familiar with was intended as a message for the masses. The gnostic message was for a chosen few who could understand it. I think that's even more true today than it was back then.
--------------------
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Rebirtha
I really like bread
Registered: 09/22/03
Posts: 5,680
Loc: over there
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
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I think that the Old and New testaments are pretty amazing and I do think that something mystical happened in those times. I don't follow either of those though simply because there are thousands of religions, which one is THE one? You can't chose ONE easily unless you were raised that way. Instead I'm just a good loving person.
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Shattered
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 332
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: supra]
#6138379 - 10/05/06 11:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Really? God exists to a believer in God, but not to someone who doesn't believe. My life's perspective is no more real than anyone elses, so i'd rather say God both exists and doesn't exist. I don't think God exists in hell for instance, but i'd believe he exists in heaven. Maybe it is confusing, but come on.
Hell, even to someone who believes in God, it's possible for God not to exist, because if you believe in an idea of God, you believe in the idea and not God.
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lavod
Seal Whisperer
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5,452
Loc: Over the rainbow
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: GnuBobo]
#6138403 - 10/05/06 11:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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All belief is wrong. Suspicion is wrong too, however pliable, making it permissible. Knowledge has severe stage fright. Death and destruction are a part of, and invaluable to, life. Ends are never known and never absolute. As I've said before(with variations), In your song of life, the lyrics are your religion, and the notes your science. The music produced is magick. Will thee not to a beautiful song? Shine! Smog only chokes and blinds those who produce it. It is of no consequence to a star. So saith the prosperous fishermen.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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I'm Catholic, though I have a few reservations (mostly about sexual questions, but they're working on that).
I really think that if people took the time to examine Catholic doctrine and the debate of the Synod of Bishops, they'd be pleasantly surprised, as I was when I considered switching to Unitarianism, or something similar. For example, most people don't know that Pope Pius XII stated that evolution was not incompatible with religion, something other sects of Christianity wouldn't even consider for another 5 decades. Pope John Paul II then came out and said he even agreed with evolution.
Similarly, Catholic belief structures aren't fixated on "Heaven" or "Hell" (indeed, modern Catholic doctrine even questions whether or not the firey Hell exists at all), but rather on simply trying to live in harmony with your fellow men, as Jesus would have wanted you to.
This was best explained to me by a Priest who suggested an alternative interpretation of the loaves and the fishes story (this post is already long, so I'll abreviate): Many Christians believe that when Jesus fed the masses on only a handful of loaves and dried fish, he was able to do so by somehow magically creating more food, that the miracle was how he made food show up out of thin air.
But, another way of looking at it is to assume that most people already brought food with them (which is a reasonable assumption, if the people were planning on traveling), but were initially unwilling to share for fear of being short changed. When they saw Jesus' example, sharing what little food he had, even though it would clearly not be enough, their hearts were changed, and they shared their own food. The miracle in this interpretation is not "food out of thin air" but simply leading by example, and loving by example.
Other "miracles" can be viewed in similar ways. It begins to matter less whether or not Lazarus actually came back from the dead, or if the water actually turned to wine, and matter more whether or not you are willing to follow the example of Jesus and show love to your fellow man.
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oDin
Registered: 08/12/99
Posts: 5,789
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: lavod]
#6138461 - 10/05/06 11:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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titties are good
hope karma is true
pot yummy
sometimes wish i had a religion however i have concluded that nature is my church, nothing makes me feel closer to "god"
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friedclyde
Lysergic Me
Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 95
Loc: India
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: lavod]
#6138473 - 10/05/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i belive that there is a creator something that had to create us the universe etc.....apart from that all the people in religions are just enlightened people......who knows in the future they could make david blaine god if he begins to heal people.....
i guess its people who just managed to understand themselves better and managed to use their brain to a greater extent as compared to normal people....
iv felt connected with the universe and the world and god on lsd extremly positive spiritual experiences.......but then its illegal u know
-------------------- Fractal Enlightenment
Edited by friedclyde (10/06/06 12:01 AM)
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Colbadol
Reality Mechanic
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 1,722
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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i havent put a lot of effort into shaping my own spiritual experience. So, as far as i know, what i believe right now is just sort of based on varius direct/indirect influences throughout my life....so far. I kind of have a feeling for polytheism in that i 'feel' that i can talk to spirits in the woods. Or a certain astral constellation, or anything along those lines.
Economist, that was an amazing post. Youve changed my opinion on christianity, a bit. I guess we always knew what you said, but you said it really well. Ill try to remember it.
--------------------
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eligal
Noobie
Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
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I believe that religion was a fairy tale told to each other to ease the fear of dieing. Most religious believes have some sort of comforting assurance that there is some sort of life after death, making us less afraid of death. Eventually this fear was used by peopel in power to scare people into thinking that if they did not behave the way they wanted them to, they would be sent to a hell.
It became the exposing of peoples fears to control them, the same way it is still used today, with the threat of hell and the threat of "terrorists".
-------------------- \m/ Spanksta \m/ "do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?" "MolokoMilkPlus said: I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job" "tactik said: respect the can."
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Telepylus
Babyman
Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: friedclyde]
#6138967 - 10/06/06 12:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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My religion is self discovery. In my self discovery I've noticed many similarities to other religions. But none of them are as perfect and sufficient for me as my own Religion.
My Religion is simple, it's about focusing thought patterns in wholesome positive constructive ways, and having vigilance against toxic thought patterns. There is only One Sin- Dishonesty. When a person is purely Honest, they are sinless. Being Honest with yourself is what allows you to recognize who you really are, to maximize your human potentials.
Like christianity insists, it is in the nature of man to sin. We are all sinners and cannot escape it. It is somewhat impossible for a human being to be purely honest with himself for more than a few moments. Because being purely Honest means being sinless and walking with God. It is the nature of man to have trouble & accidents with sin, because how else would God determine who is his true follower? And how else would he keep man from just being God all the time if Honesty was an easy thing. It is possible for any human being to become One with God, and to obtain his proof that He is in fact God, but nobody can maintain that position for long. Honesty cannot be faked. It is a Powerful Holy Virtue. When a person becomes Honest, they become one with Truth. And being One with Truth, next you only need to look inside yourself to find any answer, to solve any mystery. Omniscience.
As soon as any person becomes Honest with who they are, they can see themselves as they really are, and they can see the world as it really is. Then the universe displays it's True Honest Order, to the mind of the only beings capable of handling that, a True Honest Person. (that's called YOU CAN PASS) so long as you are bound to dishonest thought patterns, that are incomplete or unwholesome, YOU CANNOT PASS.
when you finally do pass, all the way to the end, God allows you to sit in The Throne of Creation, and during this time, you will be totally conscious and aware in the real world witnessing a miracle that proves to you for all time without a doubt, you are the Child of GOD, the One intelligence that created and governs the entire universe loves you most, because of your capability to be honest with yourself (and him).
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Simisu
taken by gravity
Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 5,435
Loc: Israeli in
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Telepylus]
#6139428 - 10/06/06 05:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i believe that all religions are based on good things but are no longer relevant, with time they all became a method of control rather then a means for SELF control or self empowerment.
as for death, i don't think there's anything after this life but i hope that I'm wrong and somehow my energy will float on in the universe, free to become whatever... i don't think it would still be an "i" or a "self" just energy, but i doubt that
-------------------- Shrmery Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum
Edited by Simisu (10/06/06 05:29 AM)
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gregorio
Too Damn Old
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
HELLA_TIGHT said: I believe Jesus is only for the weak minded. My love comes from true compassion,
Weak minded??? To actualy follow and live by the teachings of Jesus has got to be one of the hardest things that a person can do. To do that takes a strong mind not a weak one.
But it is good to hear how genuine your true compassion is though.
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Jenny
part of thewhole
Registered: 06/02/00
Posts: 5,614
Loc: Columbus, OHIO
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I believe in karma and reincarnation..if you were "bad" in this life then the next lifetime won't be as cheery, maybe you will have a physical or mental disability, but at least theres a chance to redeem yourself. I don't believe, like many christians, and I hate when they say "I believe I'm on a set path" thats so not true(In My Opinion), I believe that we make our own paths, and if we set our intentions on something we can make anything happen, if the intentions are for the good of everyone.
I believe the coming of the age of aquarius will bring about more open and ever expanding conciousness. There will always be the select few who are in the box, but I think more people than ever will focus on the improving of our planet and individual selves.
-------------------- Mindfulness is the aware, balanced acceptance of the present experience. It isn't more complicated than that. It is opening to or recieving the present moment, pleasant or unpleasant, just as it is, without either clinging to it or rejecting it.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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I belive, and many of my peers do, that most religons are a sham, especially western religion. Eastern religons at least hold some interest with me, however, I dont belive all of it in the literal sense. But there is good knowlege there.
As for western religon, nothing is more hypocritical, backwards, and drained of meaning then western religon.
I dont belive reincarnation anymore, and if god exists, then IT, has something to do with the ordering of the universe, something inside what makes the the quantum world tick, that is if you want to call said force god.
This is a hard topic, for me there are no easy answers, or spiritual keys, and I dont want to live my life hoping for a better one next time, or living like it doesnt matter because, hey, we go rond again.
The word god has been used quite alot, but do any of us really know what it MEANS?? (that is if it existed, what it means)
No. and anyone that claims to know what happens after death is lying, or mistaken, plain and simple. I think more emphasis should be placed on philosophy, in school, and I wish it was more important in culture at large.
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Mike_yy
Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 7,253
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I'm not sure what i believe in. My mind tells me there's something there, but i know there's no way myself or any human could know for sure what it is..
Ive been thinking that some drugs hold a big realistic insight into religion, or at least the very foundation of it.
We can take drugs that make us feel more spiritual, these drugs are affecting our brains. That tells me there's a specific part of our brains that controls spiritual/religious feelings.. Maybe with our intelligence/love for people/and our recognition that we will someday die our brains have evolved this spiritual side, as kinda like a dampener. Maybe it's evolutions solution to help us cope with things, now that we are so aware.
So i think everyone has that side to them,, but our up bringing helps decide how much of an affect that part of our brains will have on our lives...
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djtetsu
Stranger
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 40
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Mike_yy]
#6139877 - 10/06/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The bible was written by man, long before he knew there were dinosaurs, before he knew how to fly (and realize there's no heavens up there), before he knew of refrigerators (and realize a pork chop isn't dangerous).
And c'mon, do you really believe Moses saved us and all the animals?
It's fine to have faith in this stuff, but atleast admit, from a scientific standpoint, the bible's arguments are very weak (if not down right INCORRECT).
It's very irritating to keep hearing people yell, 1 + 1 = 3.
Edited by djtetsu (10/06/06 09:32 AM)
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bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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I believe UFO's transported us and are currently studying us. I would imagine they are very baffled by our insane concept of worth in green pieces of paper money. I also believe the lit cloud Moses saw/followed was a UFO.
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memes
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: bukkake]
#6139892 - 10/06/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I believe in God and Jesus, and I believe Muslim/Jewish/Christianity are all based off of the same God, and 3 humans (or groups of humans) fucked it all up w/ their own ideals and interpretations and started the greatest ongoing war the world has/will ever know.
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool
Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: memes]
#6139924 - 10/06/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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religion is a bunch of made up nonsense to control people. if you actually research history you will see all the exposed wholes in christianity. the christian faith is a bunch of nonsense pieced together from other ancient religions, judaism being the biggest influence. even the idea of jesus, a son of god dying for sins was an egyptian myth long before christianity stole it. the story of noahs ark is ripped off directly from much older ancient chinese mythos. i actually dont mind if people by the christian nonsense hook line and sinker. however when they start using a book like that to hinder science, wage war, limit speech, censor expression and justify discrimination i take major offense. its a work of ancient fiction, i cant believe people take any arguements based on it seriously. it would be like me saying, lets all hate gays because ive interpreted a passage in lord of the rings which says that. chrstians really have no histroical proof to back up anything in the bible. in fact if jesus was really this important guy causing all this trouble for the romans and his execution was such a big deal how come there is no mention of him AT ALL in any roman literature from that time. not in any records, nothing. now christians just say oh but i have faith. well i have faith elves really helped humans deafeat orcs at helms deep. how bout that?? so what if there is no proof, i have faith duh.
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SilentG
Stranger thanfiction
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: memes]
#6139944 - 10/06/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would agree most closely it seems with Shattered and Economist's views. The real teachings of Jesus to me were of self-transformation from whoever you were to a better more compassionate person and the disregard of material things. I can find nothing wrong with either of those tenets.
I think that all faiths are getting at the same thing - there is something more real and better than the world we live in. In fact, that our lives are just a pale reflection (much like Plato's allegory of the cave) of this reality. I believe this higher state is essentially reunion with an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient force. Everything comes from and goes to this state which isn't bound by any rules or logical contradictions. It's more like the buddhist notion of a pregant void than the big white guy in the sky of Christian fundamentalism. Yes, God exists and doesn't. Yes there is a Hell and there also isn't. How come something beyond the scope of our very mundane reality should be bound to the same rules of logic as we are? A lack of understanding or comprehension doesn't automatically make something impossible.
Djestsu: Noah saved all animals from the flood. Moses lead the isrealites out of bondage in Egypt. Before you criticize texts that laid many foundations of all Western civilization you should read them. They're more than religious texts, they're a cultural history book. Of course people wrote them and translated them through several languages over thousands of years, so I'd agree it's folly to put blind faith in every word.
And atheism is just as foolish as any other religion. Most atheists I've met are more dogmatic than your average Easter and Christmas secular Christan who doesn't really believe in anything. Having faith in something's non-existence based on no evidence is really the same as having faith in something's existence based on no evidence.
I'd agree with all who dislike most of religion though. Religions are bureaucracies made up of fallible men and women. True faith is pretty rare and it'd be lunacy to assume every leader within a religion would actually have real faith. On the flipside though, many of the best people I've ever known were very dedicated to their religions.
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
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djtetsu
Stranger
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 40
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: SilentG]
#6139981 - 10/06/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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hehe sorry SilentG. I feel really dumb.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: SilentG]
#6139985 - 10/06/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Everyone should just be an ignostic like me.
Ignosticism is the view that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because it has no verifiable (or testable) consequences and should therefore be ignored.
It's all bullshit, just learn to deal with it and accept your limited existence.
The UNIVERSE is what is important, and we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Just enjoy your sentient awareness while you can.
Asking me if there is a god is like asking me "what color is Saturday?"... It's just nonsense.
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lavod
Seal Whisperer
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 5,452
Loc: Over the rainbow
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: SilentG]
#6139990 - 10/06/06 10:33 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I should'nt have wasted such a good post on so hopeless a thread.
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Colbadol
Reality Mechanic
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 1,722
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: lavod]
#6140047 - 10/06/06 11:04 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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well, when you think about how almost every single culture in the history of human existance has had some form of religion it is safe to assume that it is just human nature to create some form of belief system to account for things we cannot answer ourselves. i.e. some sort of creation and armageddon myth with a bunch of miracles inbetween.
It is like we as a species need to assign meaning to events beyond our control so that we can cope with it better. BUT WHY DOES EVERYTHING NEED A MEANING? If a huge asteroid the size of our moon came on a collision course with us, all humans would wonder why. The asteroid doesnt wonder why. The Earth doesnt wonder why. The universe doesnt wonder why. It just IS. Religion is a coping mechanism.
Just be.
lavod? wasted such a good post? You had a nice little metaphore there, but i dont think that religion is the lyric to the song of my life. Do other people write the lyrics to your life?
--------------------
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SilentG
Stranger thanfiction
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Colbadol]
#6140183 - 10/06/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Colbadol said: well, when you think about how almost every single culture in the history of human existance has had some form of religion it is safe to assume that it is just human nature to create some form of belief system to account for things we cannot answer ourselves. i.e. some sort of creation and armageddon myth with a bunch of miracles inbetween.
You could also interpret the universal presence of religion, mythology, or faith as evidence of an external power. Or you could just say all is one and the inside and outside are the same.
There's lots of ways to interpret these issues. Betting on only one isn't my style - I'd rather cover the spread and limit not that which I don't know.
I forget who mentioned earlier that often people talk about the idea of God not God itself. That's a cornerstone of symbolic language - you consider the symbol and not the object of the symbol. It's also a key part of zen's rejection of traditional buddhism. Initially Christianity was also a rejection of similar issues within Judaism. A worship of rituals and law instead of the source of those laws. Modern evengelical Christianity is in some ways a further continuation of that idea within mainstream Christianity. Everyone wants to get to the source, but in trying to they seem to lose sight. I think that maybe says something about trying to commune with a greater power - don't try. Just live a good life and care for others.
Dyjetsu - Don't sweat it! They're both crusty "white" guys from the Old Testament.
Colbadol - there's a meaning to the asteroid too, locked in all the forces that created and launched it on a course with Earth. It's probably just beyond the scope of all possible science to really get at that meaning. I think that's similar to the situation with trying to find meaning through faith. Ultimately you just have faith that despite the meaning being beyond your grasp everything is ok. What's wrong with feeling like everything beyond your control is ok?
Faith in religion is no different than faith in science. The so called laws of science are not real laws. People find things that modify them - they are not solid and unchanging. Thus, at any given time scientists must have faith in their laws of science.
All empirical evidence upon which science rests is founded on observation and the duplication of observations. There is NO evidence that observation and duplication are to be trusted. To borrow from David Hume, just because the Sun has risen every morning of my life is no reason to say you KNOW it will tommorrow. Past performance is not a rule like 2+2 = 4. It is inductive knowledge and subject to error via unknown variables. The philosophy behind science and the scientific method is no better at root than faith in a high power which you admit you cannot understand. Just because a scientist has faith that because an experiment cannot be duplicated the conclusions are erroneous does not make it so anymore than a fundamentalist Christian's faith that all Muslims will go to Hell makes that so.
I'd completely agree though that in everday life science is the bomb-diggity. The science with blind faith in itself that assumes anything beyond the grasp of science or observation is bunk is what I hold issue with.
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
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Newbie
User of semicolons.
Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 24,713
Loc: SoCal
Last seen: 19 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: SilentG]
#6140239 - 10/06/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wow 33 posts and nobody moved this to the spirituality or mysticism board?
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Cracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
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Find yourself and you will find god.
-------------------- The best way to live is to be like water For water benefits all things and goes against none of them It provides for all people and even cleanses those places a man is loath to go In this way it is just like Tao ~Daodejing
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robbyberto
Water Boy
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 15,502
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Cracka_X]
#6140426 - 10/06/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I believe it's human nature to believe in religion. Take one away and another will come together and take it's place. Religion is archaic and is the main cause of war. Damn religion.
-------------------- “People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: SilentG]
#6140744 - 10/06/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Colbadol said:Faith in religion is no different than faith in science.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever read.
They are absolutely 100% different... one looks at real data with experiments, conclusions and proven testable FACTS. The other relies on 'magic' and 'mysticism' and people believing something they are told just 'because'.
I exist because I am real, and I can pass a litany of tests to prove my existence... Try that with Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny and God.
It always suprises me that people will always stop believing in Santa/ToothFairy/Bunny at a certain age, but belief in a god persists until death. I think if Santa ran your "heaven", people would believe in him longer.
It's all nonsense anyway... Let's stop hunger, poverty and senseless loss of HUMAN life... then worry about what comes after.
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mipa
glutton forpunishment
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 118
Loc: are you kidding
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
Quote:
Colbadol said:Faith in religion is no different than faith in science.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever read.
They are absolutely 100% different... one looks at real data with experiments, conclusions and proven testable FACTS. The other relies on 'magic' and 'mysticism' and people believing something they are told just 'because'.
I think all he meant was that at some point it was a scientific fact that the earth was flat... or that we could not go to the moon etc. So in a way what is a scientific fact today might not be tomorrow... so people who are basing their beliefs on science don't necessarily have cold hard facts because 50 years from now their fact may be fiction.
-------------------- mipa
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SilentG
Stranger thanfiction
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: Let's stop hunger, poverty and senseless loss of HUMAN life... then worry about what comes after.
Agreed. One of the first things I said in my prior post was that the real key is living a good life and caring for others.
Besides that, reread my post. I'm not saying they're literally the same, simply that at root one has to have FAITH in his/her observations and in the litany of current scientific beliefs (laws and theories) to actually believe in scientific findings.
Science relies on induction which by its very nature is unreliable. Before you attack my comment, look more into the philosophy of science.
And no, you cannot prove your own existence as a human person. All you can prove is the thought you make in questioning your own existence. This neither proves humanity or even that it was really you that created the thought.
Funny how you mention Santa and such when I'm the one who's really stressing skepticism. Skepticism of science and even skepticism of our ability to know really anything.
But in the end the buddhists got it best when they stressed compassion and freeing all people from suffering. That alone is something I can rest assured of.
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
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HELLA_TIGHT
Madge the Smoking Vag
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 84,387
Loc: Afghanistan
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: djtetsu]
#6142318 - 10/07/06 01:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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djtetsu said: And c'mon, do you really believe Moses saved us and all the animals?
noah?
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blissedout
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 22,320
Loc: Yonder
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HELLA_TIGHT
Madge the Smoking Vag
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 84,387
Loc: Afghanistan
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: blissedout]
#6142352 - 10/07/06 01:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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blissedout
Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 22,320
Loc: Yonder
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Hey! That reminds me! I was driving home from somewhere, a few days ago, and I was with danksis and Elijah. Well, we are going up the road and here come this GIGANTIC guy on a mountain bike!! He was like 8 feet tall!! He looked like he was on stilts, but he wasn't. AND HE WAS A MORMON! Danksis said, "That would be a good name for a band: 8 Ft Mormons!"
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: blissedout]
#6142838 - 10/07/06 09:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
think all he meant was that at some point it was a scientific fact that the earth was flat... or that we could not go to the moon etc. So in a way what is a scientific fact today might not be tomorrow...
That was then, this is 2006. We have supercomputers deconstructing DNA, electron scanning microscopes peeking into the sub-structure of the universe, and we have millions and millions of proven scientific documents.
We have figured out everything THAT MATTERS in our corner of the universe. It's people who still look for more when the mystery is already solved that propagate this ridiculous notion of magic and superstition.
You are made of molecules randomly assembled over a span of time YOU cannot comprehend. It just happened, and now you have a little brain capable of pondering your own existance... But, whatever you BELIEVE doesn't compare to the truths that already exist, and have existed long before YOU ever graced the Earth.
Stop thinking about things that CANNOT possibly exist within the laws of our universe... which we know, and have proven as fact.
Again, any notion of god or anything similar is nonsense and has no place among conversation between rational people.
And I'm sorry if I come off as attacking... I'm just an aggressive typer!
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: Again, any notion of god or anything similar is nonsense and has no place among conversation between rational people.
It does, however, have a place in conversation among the transrational. Reason alone can only take us so far.
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SilentG
Stranger thanfiction
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: Stop thinking about things that CANNOT possibly exist within the laws of our universe... which we know, and have proven as fact.
This is wrong. I wouldn't mind the aggressive typing if you actually knew what you were talking about with regards to the position you're trying to defend.
Science doesn't work like that. Laws are not immutable. The term "law" is a misnomer that even staunch REAL scientists will admit to. Ask any PhDed professor in any scientific field if the "laws" of science are proven as fact. Make sure and emphasize the word FACT.
At best it's a gross simplification to say something that foolish. It's also ironic after your earlier comment regarding what I said.
From the wickipedia "philosophy of science":
Quote:
Thomas Kuhn denied that it is ever possible to isolate the theory being tested from the influence of the theory in which the observations are grounded. He argued that observations always rely on a specific paradigm, and that it is not possible to evaluate competing paradigms independently. By "paradigm" he meant, essentially, a logically consistent "portrait" of the world, one that involves no logical contradictions. More than one such logically consistent construct can each paint a usable likeness of the world, but it is pointless to pit them against each other, theory against theory. Neither is a standard by which the other can be judged. Instead, the question is which "portrait" is judged by some set of people to promise the most in terms of “puzzle solving”.
For Kuhn, the choice of paradigm was sustained by, but not ultimately determined by, logical processes. The individual's choice between paradigms involves setting two or more “portraits" against the world and deciding which likeness is most promising. In the case of a general acceptance of one paradigm or another, Kuhn believed that it represented the consensus of the community of scientists. Acceptance or rejection of some paradigm is, he argued, more a social than a logical process.
So a scientific paradigm is no more than the choice of a concensus of scientists. No facts there.
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Social constructivism One area of interest among historians, philosophers, and sociologists of science is the extent to which scientific theories are shaped by their social and political context. This approach is usually known as social constructivism. Social constructivism is in one sense an extension of instrumentalism that incorporates the social aspects of science. In its strongest form, it sees science as merely a discourse between scientists, with objective fact playing a small role if any. A weaker form of the constructivist position might hold that social factors play a large role in the acceptance of new scientific theories.
Wait, now Scientists can't be truly objective? No way. Might mean that science isn't always right... uh oh.
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Induction One solution to this problem is to rely on the notion of induction. Inductive reasoning maintains that if a situation holds in all observed cases, then the situation holds in all cases. So, after completing a series of experiments that support the Third Law, one is justified in maintaining that the Law holds in all cases.
Explaining why induction commonly works has been somewhat problematic. One cannot use deduction, the usual process of moving logically from premise to conclusion, because there is simply no syllogism that will allow such a move. No matter how many times 17th Century biologists observed white swans, and in how many different locations, there is no deductive path that can lead them to the conclusion that all swans are white. This is just as well, since, as it turned out, that conclusion would have been wrong. Similarly, it is at least possible that an observation will be done tomorrow that shows an occasion in which an action is not accompanied by a reaction; the same is true of any scientific law.
One answer has been to conceive of a different form of rational argument, one that does not rely on deduction. Deduction allows one to formulate a specific truth from a general truth: all crows are black; this is a crow; therefore this is black. Induction somehow allows one to formulate a general truth from some series of specific observations: this is a crow and it is black; that is a crow and it is black; therefore all crows are black.
The problem of induction is one of considerable debate and importance in the philosophy of science: is induction indeed justified, and if so, how?
Oh no! Science can't say something with universal certainty??? Oh shit, what will we do? We might have to admit that at root one must have faith in the findings of science.
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Scientific infallibility A critical question in science is, to what degree the current body of scientific knowledge can be taken as an indicator of what is actually 'true' about the physical world in which we live? The acceptance of such knowledge as if it were absolutely true and unquestionable (in the sense of theology or ideology) has been called scientism.
However, it is common for members of the public to have the opposite view of science — many lay people believe that scientists are making claims of infallibility. Science serves in the process of consensus decision making by which people of varying moral and ethical views come to agree on 'what is real'. In secular and technological societies, without any stronger conception of reality based on other shared ethical or moral or religious grounds, science has come to serve as the primary arbiter in disputes. This leads to the abuse of scientific dialogue for political or commercial ends.
Concern about the wide disparity between how scientists work and how their work is perceived has led to public campaigns to educate lay people about scientific skepticism and the scientific method.
[edit] Critiques of scientific method Paul Feyerabend argued that no description of scientific method could possibly be broad enough to encompass all the approaches and methods used by scientists. Feyerabend objected to prescriptive scientific method on the grounds that any such method would stifle and cramp scientific progress. Feyerabend claimed, "the only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
Oh no! Science is arbitrary too now!
So with all that and the actual FACT that most of the laws of science have changed over time, how can you say that the laws of science are facts?
And finally, how is it possible for you to fail to see the inherent FAITH in your own comment: "We have figured out everything THAT MATTERS in our corner of the universe." How could you possibly know something like that? Even the world's best scientists would NEVER EVER say something like that. You said it before, so I feel justified in saying this is one of the dumbest (and most self-righteous) things I've ever read. Speaking of self-righteous - do you understand the "faith" you've put in your belief in science now?
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
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One of the things about most modern religions that gets me is how it's a reward based system. So you have literally billions of faithful followers striving to be good people, just so they can have eternal bliss. It's always seemed like an inherently selfish concept to me. That's not to say there aren't plenty of religious folks who are good people in their own right, just that the system itself is flawed.
Plus most of the greatest atrocities perpetrated were the result of the mob mentality. And organized religion is a fecund breeding ground for that menality.
As for whether there is something beyond the range of our 5 senses.. I think that's rather likely. Whether it's a conciousness as we might understand it, whether it's even remotely interested or even aware of us... who knows? It might be nothing more than a vast energy matrix that binds us all together, perhaps allowing for seemingly supernatural phenomena. I think that ultimately how we understand it as individuals is what truly shapes it for each person.
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: unbeliever]
#6142973 - 10/07/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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unbeliever said: As for whether there is something beyond the range of our 5 senses.. I think that's rather likely. Whether it's a conciousness as we might understand it, whether it's even remotely interested or even aware of us... who knows? It might be nothing more than a vast energy matrix that binds us all together, perhaps allowing for seemingly supernatural phenomena. I think that ultimately how we understand it as individuals is what truly shapes it for each person.
Well said.
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Silversoul]
#6142992 - 10/07/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
unbeliever said: As for whether there is something beyond the range of our 5 senses.. I think that's rather likely. Whether it's a conciousness as we might understand it, whether it's even remotely interested or even aware of us... who knows? It might be nothing more than a vast energy matrix that binds us all together, perhaps allowing for seemingly supernatural phenomena. I think that ultimately how we understand it as individuals is what truly shapes it for each person.
Well said.
Thanks. I think something as chaotic and naturally resistant to definition as a potential god, afterlife, etc.. it must be shaped by our perceptions and expectations. Call it Schrödinger Spiritualism if you will.
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: unbeliever]
#6143187 - 10/07/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you believe in ANYTING existing on some level beyond what we know of at this time (gods, demons,elves, etc.), you are foolish and a magical thinker. You seem to think I have FAITH in science, but I don't. Faith is believing something WITHOUT evidence, like religion.
Science is being able to prove something using tests and prior knowledge until it is ACCEPTED as fact. Water is hydrogen and oxygen... always has been, always will be. That is a scientific fact. No one knew that for a long time, so they came up with bullshit like elemental forces and whatever... It's still hydrogen and oxygen no matter what someone tells you.
We DO have facts that are facts... Again, it's people like you who spend too much time thinking about things to a point where you are actually missing the most basic, simple things... You say my views are too simple, but he universe is wonderfully simple.
Some people are just too caught up in their own greatness to really understand it... You simply cannot be happy with the FACT that you are a meaningless, and ultimately insignificant blip in the grand scheme of the universe... You want to be part of something greater than you are, something that you imagine and humans in general have created IN THEIR MINDS.
There is nothing... get used to it and move on already.
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SilentG
Stranger thanfiction
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: Some people are just too caught up in their own greatness to really understand it... You simply cannot be happy with the FACT that you are a meaningless, and ultimately insignificant blip in the grand scheme of the universe... You want to be part of something greater than you are, something that you imagine and humans in general have created IN THEIR MINDS.
There is nothing... get used to it and move on already.
"Something greater" like a body of scientific theories (no facts - science cannot prove facts anymore than any other human endeavor such as religion or divination - see prior quotes) which you hold to with as much or more dogma than most religious zealots?
Again, I'm stressing skepticism and the true nature of science and all things. That underlying everything is some kind of faith (in science, in Jesus, in Buddhism, etc). For an insignificant mote of nothingness you sure do put a lot of faith in your ability to know anything about the world.
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: If you believe in ANYTING existing on some level beyond what we know of at this time (gods, demons,elves, etc.), you are foolish and a magical thinker.
The pretentiousness of that statement is overwhelming. And frankly, your attitude is ironically unscientific. On the subject of whether or not anything exists beyond the physical realm, science has nothing to say either way, simply because it was only designed to measure that which is physical. To think that science is reality is to abuse it. Some of us choose to incoporate science into a greater integrated understanding of the universe.
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Edited by Silversoul (10/07/06 12:27 PM)
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gregorio
Too Damn Old
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
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Wow, there is so much in this thread, where should I begin?
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Silversoul]
#6144343 - 10/07/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: If you believe in ANYTING existing on some level beyond what we know of at this time (gods, demons,elves, etc.), you are foolish and a magical thinker.
The pretentiousness of that statement is overwhelming. And frankly, your attitude is ironically unscientific. On the subject of whether or not anything exists beyond the physical realm, science has nothing to say either way, simply because it was only designed to measure that which is physical. To think that science is reality is to abuse it. Some of us choose to incoporate science into a greater integrated understanding of the universe.
Exactly.
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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gregorio
Too Damn Old
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
Psilocybeingzz said:
As for western religon, nothing is more hypocritical, backwards, and drained of meaning then western religon.
Western religion? What western religion are you speaking of?
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gregorio
Too Damn Old
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: djtetsu]
#6144418 - 10/07/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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djtetsu said: The bible was written by man, long before he knew there were dinosaurs, before he knew how to fly (and realize there's no heavens up there),
I can make two arguments against that. For one, we should not presume that heaven is part of the dimension that we live in. So of course it can not be seen.
Secondely, for arguments sake, let's say that heaven is part of our dimension. We can not even begin to compehend how vast the universe it. We havn't even skimmed the surface of it. Out of all the grains of sand that our on the planet earth, we have onlt explored just a single one. But yet you say you have proof that no heavon exists. Unbelievable. But I am an open minded person, if you have proof, let us all know.
Quote:
before he knew of refrigerators (and realize a pork chop isn't dangerous).
When it was written, eating pork could be dangerous.
Quote:
And c'mon, do you really believe Moses saved us and all the animals?
What are you talking about? How can a person reach conclusions about books that they obviously have never read?
Quote:
It's fine to have faith in this stuff, but atleast admit, from a scientific standpoint, the bible's arguments are very weak (if not down right INCORRECT).
The Bible was never intended to be a book that taught science.
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gregorio
Too Damn Old
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
KingOftheThing said: if you actually research history you will see all the exposed wholes in christianity.
What exactly are those holes? Be specific if you reply.
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the christian faith is a bunch of nonsense pieced together from other ancient religions, judaism being the biggest influence.
Judaism and Christianity are the same.
Quote:
even the idea of jesus, a son of god dying for sins was an egyptian myth long before christianity stole it.
So what your saying is that Jesus never existed?
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LuNaTiX
Quarterback
Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 5,142
Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
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To me, I like to think of the universe as a giant simulation, when you concider that atoms are made of +, nutral and - charges, you could kinda see what I mean, if atoms are just energy couldn't this just be one big simulation and lets say god was the programer and satan was a different kind of programer both dukeing it out back and forth on this giant supercomputer called the universe. But with all that aside, I do believe somewhat in christianity, but I'm more into taoism and Buddhism, and I have a whole lifetime to balance my mind and hopefully one day become enlightened, even if it only lasts a little while.
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gregorio
Too Damn Old
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 15 hours
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said:
They are absolutely 100% different... one looks at real data with experiments, conclusions and proven testable FACTS.
Bullshit! Proven and testable facts???
Take global warming for example. Excellent research from Europe suggests that climate change is not attributable to any human activities but rather is being caused by the sun burning hotter. But yet these scientist are ignored and ridiculed for their excellent research. Make no mistake about it, there is a political element in a majority of scientific studies.
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: gregorio]
#6144542 - 10/07/06 07:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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gregorio said: But yet these scientist are ignored and ridiculed for their excellent research.
So your point is?
This shit happens all the time with science and always has. Somebody (or a group of somebodies) makes a scientific claim against the status quo. You're going to have resistance from at least some scientists, if not a large majority of the scientific community. What's the difference between this and RELIGIONS resisting each others ideas? You don't get scientists starting the Crusades, or suicide bombing research labs and universities. You don't get power-hungry bureaucrats controlling ignorant masses with bullshit stories.
Quote:
Make no mistake about it, there is a political element in a majority of scientific studies
What the fuck isn't there a political element in these days?
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mipa
glutton forpunishment
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 118
Loc: are you kidding
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Post deleted by mipaReason for deletion: again, I wanted to
-------------------- mipa
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: mipa]
#6144562 - 10/07/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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This would all be much easier if you would just admit in your hearts that I am the One True God. All I ask is a small tithe of 100% of your income and a daily sexual sacrifice to my Holy Pulsating Cock.
k?
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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mipa
glutton forpunishment
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 118
Loc: are you kidding
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: gregorio]
#6144565 - 10/07/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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well spoken gregorio
-------------------- mipa
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: mipa]
#6144571 - 10/07/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. 6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith. 7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles. 8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: unbeliever]
#6144576 - 10/07/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
unbeliever said: This would all be much easier if you would just admit in your hearts that I am the One True God. All I ask is a small tithe of 100% of your income and a daily sexual sacrifice to my Holy Pulsating Cock.
k?
In other words you're a pimp and want us all to be your ho's?
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unbeliever
Yo Daddy!
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: DNKYD]
#6144603 - 10/07/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DNKYD said:
Quote:
unbeliever said: This would all be much easier if you would just admit in your hearts that I am the One True God. All I ask is a small tithe of 100% of your income and a daily sexual sacrifice to my Holy Pulsating Cock.
k?
In other words you're a pimp and want us all to be your ho's?
Isn't that what J-Chrizzle is all about?
-------------------- Happiness is a warm gun...
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: unbeliever]
#6144612 - 10/07/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Exactly.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: DNKYD]
#6144632 - 10/07/06 08:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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You cant let GOD run your life.............
Climb on gods back and fucking ride it :
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makeshroom4daddy
21st CenturySchizoid Man
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 5
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: DNKYD]
#6146933 - 10/08/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DNKYD said: What's the difference between this and RELIGIONS resisting each others ideas? You don't get scientists starting the Crusades, or suicide bombing research labs and universities. You don't get power-hungry bureaucrats controlling ignorant masses with bullshit stories.
This made me laugh because Karl Marx considered himself a scientist.
I don't understand why so many right off religion because of its violent history. Why doesn't it get credit for what it did correctly?
Modern education (especially the university system), medicine (especially the hospital system), even the printed word (in the western world), all exist today because of religion. How can you so easily forget all of this, these benefits we still enjoy today, in favor of referencing a violent history that is (for the most part) behind us?
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Kerbouchard
Stranger
Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 9,823
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right now there's a church small grounp going down in my living room. 15 christians sit and talk, spread faith, and pray.
Here I sit, on a drug site, drinking vodka, smoking cigarettes and ganj, and think about how I might have more faith than some of them. In the end I'd say that I DO think a persons energy lives on after death, yes. PROOF? None.
Faith is a marvelous thing
-------------------- "War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Decides Who's Left."
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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haha... Some of you seem so smart, but I think you are actually TOO smart for your own good. Most of the people who argue against my points care more about semantics and the "philosophy of science".
You are all missing the point, again.
Your arguement is flawed from the beginning because you are assuming an axiom that GOD EXISTS. Everything from that point forward is automatically flawed, and therefore untrue. And I love the person who responds to me with more bullshit from John 1:13... You can't use the bible to prove the bible, duh.
Look, we've gone from having no idea that micro-organisms exist to breaking down their DNA in a few hundred years. We've gone from car engines to spacecraft in less than 100 years. Everything that EXISTS can be broken down, figured out and studied.
Humans have been studying religion/god for THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of years with ZERO proof, ZERO data and ZERO ANYTHING. The only things religion has consistantly provided us is war, bigotry, hatred, child rape and the restriction of human freedom.
You are going to die, and everyone you know and love is going to die. You will experience a small amount of euphoria, then blackness, then nothing. Your corpse will rot, decompose and eventually every molecule of your being will breakdown, back to whence it came... you will be lost forever, forgotten. boo fuckin' hoo.
All of you can point out logical falacies and call me on semantic bullshit you learned in whatever brainwashing camp you went to, but the fact is still the same. You are all idiots and fools who believe in magic and fairy tales, and waste your precious life chasing rainbows, looking for the mystical pot o' gold...
It's just light passing through moisture particles, but for some people, it's a magic smile from god...
WAKE THE FUCK UP already.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: DNKYD]
#6149419 - 10/09/06 08:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DNKYD said: Religion is merely mythology and control of the masses. It will drag us down until we either destroy ourselves or somehow get past it and move on to bigger and better things.
You are ignoring that there are, by there very natures, wise and peacful religions such as Buddhism.
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array
diehard confederate
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 2,539
Loc: ya moms trailer park
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Sinbad]
#6149422 - 10/09/06 08:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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buddhas name be praised!
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: Look, we've gone from having no idea that micro-organisms exist to breaking down their DNA in a few hundred years. We've gone from car engines to spacecraft in less than 100 years. Everything that EXISTS can be broken down, figured out and studied.
Before we could find evidence of the existance of single celled organisms, did they fail to exist?
No, of course not, they were always there.
An abscence of evidence is not the same as evidence of abscence.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: The only things religion has consistantly provided us is war, bigotry, hatred, child rape and the restriction of human freedom.
Or how about the University system? Oh, and hospitals. Do you like printed text? Because religion gave us that and I'm pretty happy with it. How about the foundations of modern legal theory? Or should we just forget about Thomas Aquinas?
How about human freedom itself? The very ideals of freedom, liberty, and pursuit of happiness were proclaimed in America by Preachers as well as politicians (Jedidiah Morse, Timothy Dwight).
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emilbus
Drunk
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 1,113
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion *DELETED* [Re: array]
#6149557 - 10/09/06 09:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by emilbusReason for deletion: ......
-------------------- You look down at me and you see a fool You look up at me and you see a god You look straight at me and you see yourself
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poke smot!
floccinocci floofinator
Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 5,248
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion *DELETED* [Re: emilbus]
#6149616 - 10/09/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by poke smot!Reason for deletion: x
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emilbus
Drunk
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 1,113
Loc: Texas
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: poke smot!]
#6149617 - 10/09/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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what????
-------------------- You look down at me and you see a fool You look up at me and you see a god You look straight at me and you see yourself
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: emilbus]
#6149619 - 10/09/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure all the things Economist listed would have existed without religion... in fact, mostly ALL scientific research would've been much faster without religious bullshit standing in it's way... remember Galileo?
"An abscence of evidence is not the same as evidence of abscence." <-- Religion's favorite quote. But, after all this time, I think there is abundant "evidence of abscence" concerning god... you are just too scared to accept it.
There is no magic... how hard is that to grasp?
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: I'm pretty sure all the things Economist listed would have existed without religion...
And I could say the same thing about war, famine, suffering, etc. Those were all ALSO clearly going to happen without religion.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: in fact, mostly ALL scientific research would've been much faster without religious bullshit standing in it's way... remember Galileo?
Remember all that funding for Universities that came from the Church? Or how about their founding in the first place? I'm sure that just slowed things down...
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: But, after all this time, I think there is abundant "evidence of abscence" concerning god...
Really, can you point to some?
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6149761 - 10/09/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sure, everything would have existed without religion... Including humans, the earth and the universe. that's my point.
Funding? hahaha... The church has been sucking up money for thousands of years! They only funded universities so that they could control them. And I think that is a minute positive detail compared with the immense negative effect religion has had on science... c'mon.
As for evidence of absence?
Hmmmm.... I think that you would refute anything I could come up with, so I'd rather not waste my time. How about you read up on Russel's Teapot and get back to me... YOU should be proving god exists to me, not the other way around.
It just bothers me when adult humans believe in nonsense...
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SilentG
Stranger thanfiction
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: "An abscence of evidence is not the same as evidence of abscence." <-- Religion's favorite quote. But, after all this time, I think there is abundant "evidence of abscence" concerning god... you are just too scared to accept it.
What is this abundant evidence? Do tell. If you knew, I cannot imagine why you wouldn't list it to bolster your points.
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
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Colbadol
Reality Mechanic
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 1,722
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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It's hilarious how religious people consider evidence of science to be equal or less than faith in religion. ...like that standing in the middle of a highway analogy said earlier in this thread. YOU CAN SEE THE TRUCKS!
you cant refute science. Religion is opinion. Science is fact (at least most of it).
but you have to at least equate the two just to speak to these people...kind of like the davinci code. The supreme understanding comes from joining the two. ...as if my lack of understanding towards brain-dead religious followers automatically takes me out of the argument without compromise. fuck that. we shouldnt have to compromise. Im sticking to fact.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: Sure, everything would have existed without religion... Including humans, the earth and the universe. that's my point.
So, you admit you were wrong to claim that religion was responsible for wars, limitations on freedom, etc. since this would have happened anyway?
My hat's off to you, it takes a solid debater to admit mistakes.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: Funding? hahaha... The church has been sucking up money for thousands of years! They only funded universities so that they could control them. And I think that is a minute positive detail compared with the immense negative effect religion has had on science... c'mon.
I think you need to delve a bit deeper into history. Circa 1257 AD, when the "Medieval University" system began to appear in Europe, the entire thing was founded and run by theologians. They gladly helped to further the study of all sciences, but that doesn't change their origin.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: YOU should be proving god exists to me, not the other way around.
I can't, I don't have the evidence. But then, I never claimed I did. You, however, claim that you have evidence God does not exist, and for that I am still waiting.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: It just bothers me when adult humans believe in nonsense...
You mean like believing something cannot exist without any evidence to support that conclusion?
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6149901 - 10/09/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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You are right and I am wrong... I guess there is a bearded man living in the clouds who gets mad when I jerk off. I should've known!
I don't need evidence, YOU do.
I could say there is a teapot floating between Earth and Mars. You would ask me to prove it, and I would have to provide that proof, or else you would have no reason to believe me.
HOWEVER,
You say there is a god floating above. I ask you for proof, and you would have to provide it, but you can't. You ask me to disprove it... Notice anything?
I could point to the MILLIONS of times people pray and NOTHING happens as proof, but you would come up with some "gods will" bullshit. I could point to a church full of child molesters and thieves, but you would refute that as well. I could point to the facts of a round earth, NOT at the center of the universe but the church has already changed it's unchagable story. I could point out that there are no dinosaurs in the bible (or any religious text) because no one knew they existed when those books were written BY MAN. I could point to all the obviously fake preachers on TV and around the south... Or, it could be that over the last 10,000 years we've had thousands of religions come and go, with NOTHING special to show.
But, no.... I am wrong and you are right. How could I have missed it!
I better start living by the light of the lord jesus christ!!! I guess I should stop fucking girls out of marriage, becasue that's a sin I'm sure you avoid. Better go to church EVERY sunday, without fail like you, and give 10% of everything I own like you obviously do. And finally, I suppose I should vote for great leaders like George W Bush, as I am sure you did.
I'll say it one more time... If you beilieve in "god", you are a fool. I don't care how smart you think you are, I don't care how much "debate" experience you have and I don't care what experiences you've had... You believe in a magic creature, the end. No different from believing in fairies, dragons or unicorns... they are all equally foolish, they just don't have churches.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: I guess there is a bearded man living in the clouds who gets mad when I jerk off. I should've known!
When did I ever say this?
Your problem is that you like to apply strawmen again and again. You're attacking religion in the most irrelevant ways possible, and you have very clearly, and very sadly, completely missed the point. Believing in Christianity is far more about believing in the way Jesus taught us to live than it is about believing there's a heaven with angels that play harps.
Did you know Thomas Jefferson once said he thought it would be good for the US to fight an armed internal conflict once every 20 years?
Clearly that's nuts! Let's forget everything else Jefferson said and dismiss it because of this one, bad, crazy idea he had!
Jesus told us to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Is that a bad idea? Should we completely forget about that because some theologians once thought the Earth was the center of the Universe?
As you have pointed out, Faith has been interpretted by humanity, there are going to be mistakes. That's why the Synod of Bishops meets for the express purpose of debating how and what the scriptures might actually mean, and how we can be better people by understanding them. The discussion and the sharing of ideas is just as important as the ideas themselves.
We don't believe because we are sure of the existance of a supernatural being, we believe because the lessons Jesus taught are worth listening to, and because our minds are open to Jesus' suggestions on how to be a better neighbor to ourselves, our friends, and the world.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6150028 - 10/09/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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EVERY bit of your arguement supports god's existance without ever having that proved. I am basically saying there is no god because god would have to be a magical creature, and they do not exist.
If there is no god, then EVERYTHING you are talking about is irrelevant and meaningless.
I don't need Jesus to tell me how to live... I know how to live because humans are generally good natured and can live together... God didn't do that, it's basic evolution. If we couldn't be nice to each other, we wouldn't have and we would not have moved past cavemen and we wouldn't be here to talk about it.
The sad part is that none of it matters until we die... and then it really doesn't matter. However, I will have lived my life by my own standards, doing whatever I wanted with no guilt or superstition getting in my way. You will have lived your entire life guided by nonsense and your existance will have been altered by every decision you made based on that nonsense.
And stop worrying about the way I argue, and look at it this way...
You believe in magic. Magic does not exist. You believe in something that does not exist.
If you want to listen to Jesus, go ahead... But I guess you feel as tho homosexuals are evil and America should limit their freedoms?
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: EVERY bit of your arguement supports god's existance without ever having that proved.
This is 100% false. You don't need to believe in God to recognize that "Do unto others..." is still a pretty good idea.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: I don't need Jesus to tell me how to live... I know how to live because humans are generally good natured and can live together...
Right! Hence the history of tyranny and war...
Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek. (also something you don't need to believe in God to understand) If more of our leaders believed in this, we'd be much better off.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: You believe in magic. Magic does not exist. You believe in something that does not exist.
Again with the falsehoods. You cannot prove that God does not exist, and even if you could, the ideals like "Let him who has not sinned cast the first stone" most certainly would still, and do still exist.
I believe in ideals propounded by Jesus, and those most certainly exist whether or not he did.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: If you want to listen to Jesus, go ahead... But I guess you feel as tho homosexuals are evil and America should limit their freedoms?
Again with the strawmen.
Did you know that Pope John Paul II specifically stated that homosexuals deserved the same respect as any other person? When Ratzinger was still a Bishop he called upon all Catholics to condemn mistreatment of homosexuals. He even went so far as to agree that homosexuality was not a choice, but something that you are born with, and that no fault should be assigned to homosexuals for who they are. (See Ratzinger's Letter to the Bishops, Rome, October 1986)
But no, because some people somewhere hate homosexuals, and those people happen to believe in Jesus, then ALL Christians everywhere must hate homosexuals.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6150134 - 10/09/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ahh... ok, then it's settled. Sorry for the confusion.
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Colbadol
Reality Mechanic
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 1,722
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6150152 - 10/09/06 02:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said: But no, because some people somewhere hate homosexuals, and those people happen to believe in Jesus, then ALL Christians everywhere must hate homosexuals.
go ahead and roll your eyes, but those "strawmen" who hate use your religion as their defense. Their religion advocates their behavior. Your religion advocates their behavior. The pope might say one thing, but the book you all praise says another.
so much for "srawmen." Im sorry that they ruined it for you.
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fearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
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these threads are silly. live.love.die.rot. get over it
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Colbadol
Reality Mechanic
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 1,722
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: fearfect]
#6150170 - 10/09/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
fearfect said: these threads are silly. live.love.die.rot. get over it
youre right! GAH! sry economist, nothing personal.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Colbadol]
#6150224 - 10/09/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Colbadol said: Your religion advocates their behavior. The pope might say one thing, but the book you all praise says another.
If you had studied the Bible, you'd know this was false.
None of the Gospels ever say that homosexuality is wrong. Jesus never comments on it. Go ahead and look, it's not in there.
The extreme interpretations of homosexuality come from the Old Testament. However, we also know that Jesus told us that many laws and beliefs laid down in the old testament were misunderstood, or even just wrong (See Mark Chapter 7).
Those extremists who hate homosexuals choose to interpret the Bible as describing a Jesus who agreed with the Old Testament's teachings against homosexuality, but Gospels themselves do not support this.
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6150272 - 10/09/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just love how you know SOOOO much about debate and logic and such, but you refer to a 2000 year old book as fact... it's mindblowing!
Please tell me you aren't some 16 year old youth groupie, and that you actually have some real life experience... It just sounds like you have the intelligence to comprehend the truth, but some kind of blind faith holds onto you. I saw earlier how the 'sexual questions' were getting to you, so I am assuming you are at that age where you start to question why god outlaws pre-marital sex...
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skynet
Stranger
Registered: 12/01/05
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Human invited words are just "matrix"
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mungojerry
free as a bird
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: skynet]
#6150522 - 10/09/06 03:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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evolution is not taught as a theory, its taught as a fact
science vs. god science wins
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skynet
Stranger
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: mungojerry]
#6150540 - 10/09/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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You need to feel evolution not to think about it...
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mungojerry
free as a bird
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: skynet]
#6150613 - 10/09/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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huh?
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skynet
Stranger
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: mungojerry]
#6150661 - 10/09/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i call it matrix :p
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: I just love how you know SOOOO much about debate and logic and such, but you refer to a 2000 year old book as fact... it's mindblowing!
When did I ever say that the Bible in its entirey was fact?
Again, should we pretend that messages like "Turn the other cheek" are bad pieces of advice because large parts of the Bible cannot be proven? The Bible's message was always about how humans should treat each other, and about the importance of forgiveness. Is forgiveness suddenly unimportant because the Earth is 4 billion years old instead of 5700? The "facts" of the Bible are not important. The message is what's important.
Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: I saw earlier how the 'sexual questions' were getting to you, so I am assuming you are at that age where you start to question why god outlaws pre-marital sex...
It's actually not the pre-marital bit, since there's still quite a bit of debate over whether or not that's wrong, both within the Catholic Church and in other sects of Christianity. Interestingly enough, records from the Puritans who settled New England, considered to be among the most conservatives ever, indicate that they thought it was okay. So long as pregnancies always resulted in marriage, they were down with it.
Of course, having extra-marrital sex was a different story, hence "The Scarlet Letter".
The question that bothers me is about contraceptive use. According to Catholic teachings, artificial contraceptive use is unacceptable, but natural contraception is okay. The argument is always offered that natural contraception maintains a probability of pregnancy, which is the point of sex.
However, when done *very* carefully, natural contraception has a failure rate that comes close to some artificial methods, so the probability of pregnancy has not actually changed, meaning the argument against artificial contraception is a bad one.
The Catholic Church has changed its opinion in part, allowing for condom use inside of marriage last year, mostly to fight the spread of HIV in Africa, however it's still "discouraged". Personally I see this changing over the next couple of years to be a complete allowance of contraception (as I said in my opening post, "they're working on it") but the underlying arguments and interpretations are going to have to be re-thought.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
RoosterCogburn said: I just love how you know SOOOO much about debate and logic and such, but you refer to a 2000 year old book as fact... it's mindblowing!
And I love how you keep talking about how great logic and science are, when you clearly don't know shit about either of them. You keep committing one logical fallacy after another, and you come off like some 12-year-old brat sticking your tongue out at us. You make faith-based comments about how religion is responsible for all these wars but not for good things like universities or healthcare, and yet you mock faith. You, sir, are a riot, and your "logic" is laughable.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6151561 - 10/09/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Again, should we pretend that messages like "Turn the other cheek" are bad pieces of advice because large parts of the Bible cannot be proven?
No, but the idea that all the bad things are a test of faith is really BAD for all of society, if most people just think god makes things suck, so you better just grin and bear it, that leads to really bad outcomes, IMO)
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RoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Silversoul]
#6152413 - 10/09/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:I love how you keep talking about how great logic and science are, when you clearly don't know shit about either of them.
I know enough to see that any notion of god is laughable... and anyone who thinks otherwise is commiting the biggest logical error of all.
Call me when the rapture starts, and then maybe I'll rethink my position.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
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Quote:
I know enough to see that any notion of god is laughable... and anyone who thinks otherwise is commiting the biggest logical error of all.
Well thats were I disagree, because countless great thikers belived in god.
Personally I am leaning towards NO myself these days, but still. And besides, no one would call what I think to be god, ..god, well no organized religon would.
Its an abused word anyway
Edited by Psilocybeingzz (10/09/06 11:56 PM)
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Shattered
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 332
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Psilocybeingzz said:
Quote:
Again, should we pretend that messages like "Turn the other cheek" are bad pieces of advice because large parts of the Bible cannot be proven?
No, but the idea that all the bad things are a test of faith is really BAD for all of society, if most people just think god makes things suck, so you better just grin and bear it, that leads to really bad outcomes, IMO)
But who's idea was that? I didn't really get that meaning from the bible. How can God be responsible for bad. If bad is the absence of good, and God is good, is he responsible for the absence of a negative part of himself? That's like asking God to apologise for being good. Bad exists outside of God.
The bad in life isn't a test of faith, it is what it is, which is all that is not God. When I see bad things happen I don't see God, I see the absence of God. There's no faith needed in that. Like no one needs to prove to me that God doesn't exist, I can see proof that God doesn't exist any time I like, so what, if I want proof that God doesn't exist all I have to do is see what's wrong in the world, if I want to see that God exists all I have to do is see the good. I've experienced the absence of God in both experience and belief, as many times as i've experienced and believed in God.
And I don't know about grinning and bearing badness in life. Should God remove the bad in my life? If I choose not to be selfish, am I then responsible for selfishness in others? Only they can choose not to selfish. God shouldn't be responsible for what he is not.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Shattered]
#6153456 - 10/10/06 09:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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God couldnt be a HE, if it, exists at all, IMO. Further, why do some children get cancer at age 5, why doesnt god step in?? surely these children are innocent , and have done nothing to deserve this, so why?
and before you say god doesnt effect things, why is god even an issue if "he" doesnt effect things??
If IT exists at all, I belive IT has something to do with the the way the universe works, I have read enough books on quantum physics to see that there is alot of weirdness out there, but like humble spinoza, I dont belive god has anything to do with the petty affairs of men.
(IF , god exists )
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Shattered
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 332
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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To me that's explained in judgement.
We live in both states of the existance of God, the duality is in ourselves as much as it is in the outside. A child getting cancer is one state, a perfectly healthy child is another state of existance.
Judgement is the removal of duality, being identified with one or the other, or the finalisation of a removal of one state of awareness in favour of the other. You die, exist within God or without God, or even you die, and identify with death and that becomes your existance, or you identify with eternal life and that becomes your existance.
You're judged by the light you receive, weighed up against your life. One part of you dies, the other lives, good goes back to God, and bad goes back to wherever, free will is the association of your awareness with either state of self and you follow it wherever it goes.
Why is God an issue if he doesn't effect things? God doesn't effect things because we effect them, that's why God IS an issue, we reflect God (or not) into what we do and what we receive.
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Colbadol
Reality Mechanic
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 1,722
Last seen: 8 years, 19 days
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Economist]
#6153494 - 10/10/06 09:27 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Again, should we pretend that messages like "Turn the other cheek" are bad pieces of advice because large parts of the Bible cannot be proven?
...yes. Not just because they cant be proven, but because they are BULLSHIT! You cant claim to live by one tiny little gem of a message which is surrounded and covered by utter bullshit. No one would disagree with that message being good, but the premise still stands. Im not going to swim through and get covered in shit just to find your little message and cling to it like a floatation device. It's not reasonable.
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Psilocybeingzz
Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Shattered]
#6153520 - 10/10/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
good goes back to God, and bad goes back to wherever, free will is the association of your awareness with either state of self and you follow it wherever it goes.
Sorry that seems quitte different from FREE will.
Quote:
Judgement is the removal of duality, being identified with one or the other, or the finalisation of a removal of one state of awareness in favour of the other. You die, exist within God or without God, or even you die, and identify with death and that becomes your existance, or you identify with eternal life and that becomes your existance.
That just doesnt make sense, I mean I know what your saying, but there is no evidence of any kind to support that, its just faith.
Quote:
God doesn't effect things because we effect them, that's why God IS an issue, we reflect God (or not) into what we do and what we receive.
We reflect god?? or not? How so?
Everyone is different, whats a good way to reflect god?? well first that doesnt make alot of sense to me, but if your reflecting god, well whos to say your right? Your god, or book? What about somone elses book??
People assuming that they are reflecting god leads to quite alot of violence.
Why not just say Jesus was a good man, hey lets actually help people rather then trying to convert anyone. What a concept!
WWJD? he wouldnt waste his time, he would actually do something for others, of course personally I dont need jesus, at all, I have plenty of philosophy that teaches charity. It works for me.
Edited by Psilocybeingzz (10/10/06 02:17 PM)
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Colbadol]
#6153619 - 10/10/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Colbadol said: You cant claim to live by one tiny little gem of a message which is surrounded and covered by utter bullshit. No one would disagree with that message being good, but the premise still stands. Im not going to swim through and get covered in shit just to find your little message and cling to it like a floatation device. It's not reasonable.
Where is the bullshit? So far everything you guys are attacking appears in Genesis, 1 book in the Old Testament. Creationism doesn't even play into the Gospels.
Please actually read the Bible before you continue to attack a text you clearly do not understand. The Bible doesn't have "one tiny gem of a message", the message is both pervasive throughout the text as well as prolific.
The teachings of Jesus touch upon many topics and his messages are good across the board. The Gospels aren't just "Do unto others..." or "Turn the other cheek...". Jesus challenges us to forgive our enemies, to question unjust laws, to never cease being curious, to be tolerant of other races and other beliefs, not to hold the foolishness of another against them, not to blame people for being born the way they were.
These are lessons that you could very clearly learn from, given your obvious intollerance of people who believe differently than yourself.
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Shattered
Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 332
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Psilocybeingzz said: Sorry that seems quitte different from FREE will.
I can see how it looks like that. But it depends on what you see as God. If God is good and all of that, and bad can't exist within God, then it makes sense to me that i'm not going to be disappointed. One is endless possibility within all that is God (or all the good experiences we could choose to have via freewill), the other is death of freewill, imprisonment. In our life it's the difference between having an open and closed mind, you can accept reality as it is, life, death, or accept as it could be through belief. You use freewill to accept enternal life, rather than being imprisoned by what is reality, life, death.
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Psilocybeingzz said: That just doesnt make sense, I mean I know what your saying, but there is no evidence of any kind to support that, its just faith.
What do we know about death and what lies beyond it? We see death in the way life dies around us, we know nothing exists after life because when things die, they don't return.
But there's still a duality, a paradox. We also know life after death exists, because of belief in good. If good exists, then there must be life after death, because hey i'd rather spend eternal life in a heavenly realm. So where does belief exist? It defies reality in every way, there is no eternal life because life after death does not exist in reality. When you think about it, belief could never exist in reality, because to be totally rid of death, you have to be totally seperate to reality which IS death.
It's again two states of being. One seperate from reality, and the other firmly rooted in reality. In belief our reality doesn't have to exist, or at least it can exist in whatever way we choose, and visa versa. Belief and reality is the difference between the physical realm and spiritual realm.
I don't think it's so much faith. I guess I believe that when you get down to the source of it, things exist in opposite states. Sure you have shades of grey, but essentially the two states are black and white. We're in one state where we're totally none the wiser as to what's after death, but the good thing about that is if it's possible to be aware of that other state which is the opposite of this one (death), then we'd be totally none the wiser as to what's beyond eternal life.
I guess it could be faith, but it's kinda more obsveration of life and how everything either is or it isn't.
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Psilocybeingzz said: We reflect god?? or not? How so?
Everyone is different, what a good way to reflect god?? well first that doesnt make alot of sense to me, but if your reflecting good, well whos to say your right? Your god, or book? What about somone elses book??
People assuming that they are reflecting god leads to quite alot of violence.
Why not just say Jesus was a good man, hey lets actually help people rather then trying to convert anyone. What a concept!
WWJD? he wouldnt waste his time, he would actually do something for others, of course personally I dont need jesus, at all, I have plenty of philosophy that teaches charity. It works for me.
Good is of God, so when you do good, you reflect God into what you do. You give birth to a state of God existing in a situation where all that exists is bad.
Good to me is just that, you know when something is good or not. Some people believe homosexuality is bad, so not being homosexual must be good, but true good would be a state where homosexuality was also good. If I were homophobic, first i'd have to recognise that by being homophobic I was causing problems for others, then good to me is either a state where i'm not causing bad by being homophobic, or that i'm not homophobic. I don't know, good is what makes you feel good by doing or experiencing, or what you want to do and what you want to experience.
That's why i'm not into religion. They all say this is good and this isn't good. But it's a personal thing. God is just a word, my God could be mother nature to someone else. It's just a word to describe what you believe is truly good.
The thing about Jesus is that's what he was trying to do. He says you can't get to God except through him, so people think they have to believe in Jesus rather than some other figure in a religion, to get to God. Ok I can see where they're coming from but, Jesus said to become like him, he says 'I' am the way the truth and the light. He's talking about the Christ within ourselves, the closer we get to christ, the closer we get to God.
Some people call Christ other things, I don't see a lot of difference. It's pretty much open slather in my mind, I haven't been to church in over 15 years and i've learnt more about God and myself by doing that than I ever did. The bible even turns me off for the most part, but as I seem to learn more in life, I remember passages and see them differently, but I still can't read it.
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