Home | Community | Message Board

Cannabis Seeds Zamnesia
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleHELLA_TIGHT
Madge the Smoking Vag
Female User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 84,387
Loc: Afghanistan Flag
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: blissedout]
    #6142352 - 10/07/06 01:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblissedout
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 22,320
Loc: Yonder Flag
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: HELLA_TIGHT]
    #6142392 - 10/07/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:inlove:

Hey! That reminds me! I was driving home from somewhere, a few days ago, and I was with danksis and Elijah. Well, we are going up the road and here come this GIGANTIC guy on a mountain bike!! He was like 8 feet tall!! He looked like he was on stilts, but he wasn't. AND HE WAS A MORMON! Danksis said, "That would be a good name for a band: 8 Ft Mormons!":grin:


--------------------



:murray:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: blissedout]
    #6142838 - 10/07/06 09:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

think all he meant was that at some point it was a scientific fact that the earth was flat... or that we could not go to the moon etc. So in a way what is a scientific fact today might not be tomorrow...




That was then, this is 2006. We have supercomputers deconstructing DNA, electron scanning microscopes peeking into the sub-structure of the universe, and we have millions and millions of proven scientific documents.

We have figured out everything THAT MATTERS in our corner of the universe. It's people who still look for more when the mystery is already solved that propagate this ridiculous notion of magic and superstition.

You are made of molecules randomly assembled over a span of time YOU cannot comprehend. It just happened, and now you have a little brain capable of pondering your own existance... But, whatever you BELIEVE doesn't compare to the truths that already exist, and have existed long before YOU ever graced the Earth.

Stop thinking about things that CANNOT possibly exist within the laws of our universe... which we know, and have proven as fact.

Again, any notion of god or anything similar is nonsense and has no place among conversation between rational people.

And I'm sorry if I come off as attacking... I'm just an aggressive typer! :smile:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6142890 - 10/07/06 09:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
Again, any notion of god or anything similar is nonsense and has no place among conversation between rational people.



It does, however, have a place in conversation among the transrational. Reason alone can only take us so far.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilentG
Stranger thanfiction

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420 420 Posts!
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6142915 - 10/07/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
Stop thinking about things that CANNOT possibly exist within the laws of our universe... which we know, and have proven as fact.





This is wrong. I wouldn't mind the aggressive typing if you actually knew what you were talking about with regards to the position you're trying to defend.

Science doesn't work like that. Laws are not immutable. The term "law" is a misnomer that even staunch REAL scientists will admit to. Ask any PhDed professor in any scientific field if the "laws" of science are proven as fact. Make sure and emphasize the word FACT.

At best it's a gross simplification to say something that foolish. It's also ironic after your earlier comment regarding what I said.

From the wickipedia "philosophy of science":
Quote:

Thomas Kuhn denied that it is ever possible to isolate the theory being tested from the influence of the theory in which the observations are grounded. He argued that observations always rely on a specific paradigm, and that it is not possible to evaluate competing paradigms independently. By "paradigm" he meant, essentially, a logically consistent "portrait" of the world, one that involves no logical contradictions. More than one such logically consistent construct can each paint a usable likeness of the world, but it is pointless to pit them against each other, theory against theory. Neither is a standard by which the other can be judged. Instead, the question is which "portrait" is judged by some set of people to promise the most in terms of “puzzle solving”.

For Kuhn, the choice of paradigm was sustained by, but not ultimately determined by, logical processes. The individual's choice between paradigms involves setting two or more “portraits" against the world and deciding which likeness is most promising. In the case of a general acceptance of one paradigm or another, Kuhn believed that it represented the consensus of the community of scientists. Acceptance or rejection of some paradigm is, he argued, more a social than a logical process.




So a scientific paradigm is no more than the choice of a concensus of scientists. No facts there.

Quote:

Social constructivism
One area of interest among historians, philosophers, and sociologists of science is the extent to which scientific theories are shaped by their social and political context. This approach is usually known as social constructivism. Social constructivism is in one sense an extension of instrumentalism that incorporates the social aspects of science. In its strongest form, it sees science as merely a discourse between scientists, with objective fact playing a small role if any. A weaker form of the constructivist position might hold that social factors play a large role in the acceptance of new scientific theories.




Wait, now Scientists can't be truly objective? No way. Might mean that science isn't always right... uh oh.

Quote:

Induction
One solution to this problem is to rely on the notion of induction. Inductive reasoning maintains that if a situation holds in all observed cases, then the situation holds in all cases. So, after completing a series of experiments that support the Third Law, one is justified in maintaining that the Law holds in all cases.

Explaining why induction commonly works has been somewhat problematic. One cannot use deduction, the usual process of moving logically from premise to conclusion, because there is simply no syllogism that will allow such a move. No matter how many times 17th Century biologists observed white swans, and in how many different locations, there is no deductive path that can lead them to the conclusion that all swans are white. This is just as well, since, as it turned out, that conclusion would have been wrong. Similarly, it is at least possible that an observation will be done tomorrow that shows an occasion in which an action is not accompanied by a reaction; the same is true of any scientific law.

One answer has been to conceive of a different form of rational argument, one that does not rely on deduction. Deduction allows one to formulate a specific truth from a general truth: all crows are black; this is a crow; therefore this is black. Induction somehow allows one to formulate a general truth from some series of specific observations: this is a crow and it is black; that is a crow and it is black; therefore all crows are black.

The problem of induction is one of considerable debate and importance in the philosophy of science: is induction indeed justified, and if so, how?




Oh no! Science can't say something with universal certainty??? Oh shit, what will we do? We might have to admit that at root one must have faith in the findings of science.

Quote:

Scientific infallibility
A critical question in science is, to what degree the current body of scientific knowledge can be taken as an indicator of what is actually 'true' about the physical world in which we live? The acceptance of such knowledge as if it were absolutely true and unquestionable (in the sense of theology or ideology) has been called scientism.

However, it is common for members of the public to have the opposite view of science — many lay people believe that scientists are making claims of infallibility. Science serves in the process of consensus decision making by which people of varying moral and ethical views come to agree on 'what is real'. In secular and technological societies, without any stronger conception of reality based on other shared ethical or moral or religious grounds, science has come to serve as the primary arbiter in disputes. This leads to the abuse of scientific dialogue for political or commercial ends.

Concern about the wide disparity between how scientists work and how their work is perceived has led to public campaigns to educate lay people about scientific skepticism and the scientific method.

[edit]
Critiques of scientific method
Paul Feyerabend argued that no description of scientific method could possibly be broad enough to encompass all the approaches and methods used by scientists. Feyerabend objected to prescriptive scientific method on the grounds that any such method would stifle and cramp scientific progress. Feyerabend claimed, "the only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."




Oh no! Science is arbitrary too now!

So with all that and the actual FACT that most of the laws of science have changed over time, how can you say that the laws of science are facts?

And finally, how is it possible for you to fail to see the inherent FAITH in your own comment: "We have figured out everything THAT MATTERS in our corner of the universe." How could you possibly know something like that? Even the world's best scientists would NEVER EVER say something like that. You said it before, so I feel justified in saying this is one of the dumbest (and most self-righteous) things I've ever read. Speaking of self-righteous - do you understand the "faith" you've put in your belief in science now?


--------------------
Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that.
-Moth

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: DrunkenAttempt]
    #6142919 - 10/07/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

One of the things about most modern religions that gets me is how it's a reward based system. So you have literally billions of faithful followers striving to be good people, just so they can have eternal bliss. It's always seemed like an inherently selfish concept to me. That's not to say there aren't plenty of religious folks who are good people in their own right, just that the system itself is flawed.

Plus most of the greatest atrocities perpetrated were the result of the mob mentality. And organized religion is a fecund breeding ground for that menality.

As for whether there is something beyond the range of our 5 senses.. I think that's rather likely. Whether it's a conciousness as we might understand it, whether it's even remotely interested or even aware of us... who knows? It might be nothing more than a vast energy matrix that binds us all together, perhaps allowing for seemingly supernatural phenomena. I think that ultimately how we understand it as individuals is what truly shapes it for each person.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: unbeliever]
    #6142973 - 10/07/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
As for whether there is something beyond the range of our 5 senses.. I think that's rather likely. Whether it's a conciousness as we might understand it, whether it's even remotely interested or even aware of us... who knows? It might be nothing more than a vast energy matrix that binds us all together, perhaps allowing for seemingly supernatural phenomena. I think that ultimately how we understand it as individuals is what truly shapes it for each person.



Well said. :thumbup:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #6142992 - 10/07/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

unbeliever said:
As for whether there is something beyond the range of our 5 senses.. I think that's rather likely. Whether it's a conciousness as we might understand it, whether it's even remotely interested or even aware of us... who knows? It might be nothing more than a vast energy matrix that binds us all together, perhaps allowing for seemingly supernatural phenomena. I think that ultimately how we understand it as individuals is what truly shapes it for each person.



Well said. :thumbup:




Thanks. I think something as chaotic and naturally resistant to definition as a potential god, afterlife, etc.. it must be shaped by our perceptions and expectations. Call it Schrödinger Spiritualism if you will. :wink:


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRoosterCogburn
Fearless,one-eyed U.S.Marshall
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 8,508
Loc: Dirty South, NJ
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: unbeliever]
    #6143187 - 10/07/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you believe in ANYTING existing on some level beyond what we know of at this time (gods, demons,elves, etc.), you are foolish and a magical thinker. You seem to think I have FAITH in science, but I don't. Faith is believing something WITHOUT evidence, like religion.

Science is being able to prove something using tests and prior knowledge until it is ACCEPTED as fact. Water is hydrogen and oxygen... always has been, always will be. That is a scientific fact. No one knew that for a long time, so they came up with bullshit like elemental forces and whatever... It's still hydrogen and oxygen no matter what someone tells you.

We DO have facts that are facts... Again, it's people like you who spend too much time thinking about things to a point where you are actually missing the most basic, simple things... You say my views are too simple, but he universe is wonderfully simple.

Some people are just too caught up in their own greatness to really understand it... You simply cannot be happy with the FACT that you are a meaningless, and ultimately insignificant blip in the grand scheme of the universe... You want to be part of something greater than you are, something that you imagine and humans in general have created IN THEIR MINDS.

There is nothing... get used to it and move on already.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilentG
Stranger thanfiction

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420 420 Posts!
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6143217 - 10/07/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
Some people are just too caught up in their own greatness to really understand it... You simply cannot be happy with the FACT that you are a meaningless, and ultimately insignificant blip in the grand scheme of the universe... You want to be part of something greater than you are, something that you imagine and humans in general have created IN THEIR MINDS.

There is nothing... get used to it and move on already.




"Something greater" like a body of scientific theories (no facts - science cannot prove facts anymore than any other human endeavor such as religion or divination - see prior quotes) which you hold to with as much or more dogma than most religious zealots?

Again, I'm stressing skepticism and the true nature of science and all things. That underlying everything is some kind of faith (in science, in Jesus, in Buddhism, etc). For an insignificant mote of nothingness you sure do put a lot of faith in your ability to know anything about the world.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that.
-Moth

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6143225 - 10/07/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
If you believe in ANYTING existing on some level beyond what we know of at this time (gods, demons,elves, etc.), you are foolish and a magical thinker.



The pretentiousness of that statement is overwhelming. And frankly, your attitude is ironically unscientific. On the subject of whether or not anything exists beyond the physical realm, science has nothing to say either way, simply because it was only designed to measure that which is physical. To think that science is reality is to abuse it. Some of us choose to incoporate science into a greater integrated understanding of the universe.


--------------------

Edited by Silversoul (10/07/06 12:27 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 8 hours
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6144336 - 10/07/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, there is so much in this thread, where should I begin?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 15 years, 11 days
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Silversoul]
    #6144343 - 10/07/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:
If you believe in ANYTING existing on some level beyond what we know of at this time (gods, demons,elves, etc.), you are foolish and a magical thinker.



The pretentiousness of that statement is overwhelming. And frankly, your attitude is ironically unscientific. On the subject of whether or not anything exists beyond the physical realm, science has nothing to say either way, simply because it was only designed to measure that which is physical. To think that science is reality is to abuse it. Some of us choose to incoporate science into a greater integrated understanding of the universe.




Exactly.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 8 hours
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #6144346 - 10/07/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:


As for western religon, nothing is more hypocritical, backwards, and drained of meaning then western religon. :nonono:






Western religion? What western religion are you speaking of?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 8 hours
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: djtetsu]
    #6144418 - 10/07/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

djtetsu said:
The bible was written by man, long before he knew there were dinosaurs, before he knew how to fly (and realize there's no heavens up there),





I can make two arguments against that. For one, we should not presume that heaven is part of the dimension that we live in. So of course it can not be seen.

Secondely, for arguments sake, let's say that heaven is part of our dimension. We can not even begin to compehend how vast the universe it. We havn't even skimmed the surface of it. Out of all the grains of sand that our on the planet earth, we have onlt explored just a single one. But yet you say you have proof that no heavon exists. Unbelievable. But I am an open minded person, if you have proof, let us all know.

Quote:

before he knew of refrigerators (and realize a pork chop isn't dangerous).






When it was written, eating pork could be dangerous.

Quote:

And c'mon, do you really believe Moses saved us and all the animals?






What are you talking about? How can a person reach conclusions about books that they obviously have never read?

Quote:

It's fine to have faith in this stuff, but atleast admit, from a scientific standpoint, the bible's arguments are very weak (if not down right INCORRECT).




The Bible was never intended to be a book that taught science.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 8 hours
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #6144463 - 10/07/06 07:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

KingOftheThing said:
if you actually research history you will see all the exposed wholes in christianity.




What exactly are those holes? Be specific if you reply.

Quote:

the christian faith is a bunch of nonsense pieced together from other ancient religions, judaism being the biggest influence.




Judaism and Christianity are the same.

Quote:

even the idea of jesus, a son of god dying for sins was an egyptian myth long before christianity stole it.




So what your saying is that Jesus never existed?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLuNaTiX
Quarterback
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 5,142
Last seen: 5 months, 4 days
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: DrunkenAttempt]
    #6144474 - 10/07/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

To me, I like to think of the universe as a giant simulation, when you concider that atoms are made of +, nutral and - charges, you could kinda see what I mean, if atoms are just energy couldn't this just be one big simulation and lets say god was the programer and satan was a different kind of programer both dukeing it out back and forth on this giant supercomputer called the universe. But with all that aside, I do believe somewhat in christianity, but I'm more into taoism and Buddhism, and I have a whole lifetime to balance my mind and hopefully one day become enlightened, even if it only lasts a little while.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinegregorio
Too Damn Old
Male

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 2,837
Loc: Classified
Last seen: 3 days, 8 hours
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6144483 - 10/07/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RoosterCogburn said:

They are absolutely 100% different... one looks at real data with experiments, conclusions and proven testable FACTS.





Bullshit! Proven and testable facts???

:rofl2:

Take global warming for example. Excellent research from Europe suggests that climate change is not attributable to any human activities but rather is being caused by the sun burning hotter. But yet these scientist are ignored and ridiculed for their excellent research. Make no mistake about it, there is a political element in a majority of scientific studies.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDNKYD
Turtle!

Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
Re: Jesus/God/Religion [Re: gregorio]
    #6144542 - 10/07/06 07:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:
But yet these scientist are ignored and ridiculed for their excellent research.




So your point is?

This shit happens all the time with science and always has. Somebody (or a group of somebodies) makes a scientific claim against the status quo. You're going to have resistance from at least some scientists, if not a large majority of the scientific community. What's the difference between this and RELIGIONS resisting each others ideas? You don't get scientists starting the Crusades, or suicide bombing research labs and universities. You don't get power-hungry bureaucrats controlling ignorant masses with bullshit stories.

Quote:


Make no mistake about it, there is a political element in a majority of scientific studies




What the fuck isn't there a political element in these days?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemipa
glutton forpunishment
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 118
Loc: are you kidding
Re: Jesus/God/Religion *DELETED* [Re: RoosterCogburn]
    #6144552 - 10/07/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by mipa

Reason for deletion: again, I wanted to



--------------------
mipa

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore Injection Grain Bag, North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* I Am the True God fireworks_godS 1,427 17 11/21/03 03:31 PM
by fireworks_god
* Scientist theorize world conciousness
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Irijes 5,198 67 02/16/05 06:21 PM
by lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
* I want your opinions/I'm ranting about 50cent, OEV's and religions... thenewuser 1,580 9 04/17/05 07:28 PM
by KingOftheThing
* Jesu Joy Of Man's Desiring
( 1 2 3 all )
TM 7,271 54 02/04/23 09:10 PM
by eric_the_red
* religions
( 1 2 all )
fearfect 3,019 29 01/27/05 12:10 PM
by California
* Does God exist? A Poll.
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 4,708 38 02/24/05 06:28 AM
by DeadPhan
* High scientists
( 1 2 all )
spybreak 3,905 37 04/06/05 08:21 PM
by chinacat72
* religion, how to start one?
( 1 2 all )
fearfect 3,137 21 03/01/05 03:56 PM
by blissedout

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Entire Staff
9,893 topic views. 6 members, 30 guests and 40 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.024 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 13 queries.