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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: the writ [Re: Economist]
    #6142404 - 10/07/06 02:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

But no, let's skip these obvious reasons and get right to conspiracies!




There are a plethora of reasons to suspect a conspiracy, but this particular instance just works to debunk the fear mongering. They piss and moan about the dangers of terrorism and play around with color coded threat levels when it's likely all a god damn put on. Why do you think people still believe iraq had something to do with 9/11? BECAUSE THEY ARE ARABS. They have us believing arabs are behind everything evil then you see one walking down the street, OMG BUSH SAVE US! Were they actually a risk, were this govt telling the truth about the danger of terrorism then next logical step is to keep those people away from us. Just like WW2, only difference is that govt believed japan to be a threat, this govt (the people at the top anyway) know the arab countries are no real violent threat to american supremacy.

Your not going to insinuate that this govt doesn't wrongly imprison people I hope? 2.3 million prisoners and counting, they will lock people up for whatever they feel like, the poor have virtually no access to competent defense. Or are your going to suggest the war on drugs has nothing to do with politics so those prisoners belong there? Because if you disagree with the war on drugs then you must concede hundreds of thousands, if not a million people are imprisoned for a fictitious reason. Thus if the govt will imprison people unjustly, then there would be nothing stopping them from locking up large populations of arabs were they actually a threat.

Knowing their record of unjust imprisonments, the only explanation behind the continued existence of large arab populations in the US is that they are not a threat. That simple train of logic derails the official govt line: arabs are out to get us. (I have no doubt they are hostile toward us in their homeland of course, and for good reason.) To suggest the govt is somehow "afraid" to offend people by racial targeting is ludicrous. If arabs were a threat to govt institutions, they would NOT allow them freedom of movement. To suggest they "learned" from the japanese camps is just as ludicrous, just because the public perceives something as a mistake does not make it so. The public perceives alcohol prohibition to be a mistake, yet it's clone, the war on drugs still rages on.

And lets not forget, the govts own story is a conspiracy so if you want to debate this at all you have to "get right to conspiracies".


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: the writ [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6142437 - 10/07/06 02:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I really don't understand your post.

I don't know why people still think Iraq has something to do with Al Queda, probably because the President told them so, but I don't know.

What I do know is that the Bush administration has not told us that it's the "Arab's" fault. We're told repeatedly that Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are our friends. Are they not populated with Arabs? North Korea was a part of the axis of evil, is it filled with Arabs? Interestingly enough, only 3% of the population of Iran is identified as Arab, the majority are actually identified as Persian.

I also know that you are basing your argument on Bush imprisoning people for the "War on Drugs". Except Bush didn't start the war on drugs, Nixon did. And it was prosecuted by Carter and Clinton just as it was by Bush and Reagan. It's silly to claim that this administration has an abnormal record of wrongfully imprisoning people because of the war on drugs, because that would also imply that all the previous administrations ALSO had a record of wrongfully imprisoning people.

If you pointed to Gitmo, you might have more of a case, but even then it wouldn't truly compare to interning an entire population for the crime of simply being born Japanese.

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: the writ [Re: Economist]
    #6143393 - 10/07/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What I do know is that the Bush administration has not told us that it's the "Arab's" fault.




When bush says, "we don't want a mushroom cloud in our cities" what race of people do you think millions of americans imagined causing such destruction? Do you think they thought, "wow it could be anyone to do that" or do you think they thought "it's those damn a-rabs just like on 9/11!"?

Quote:

We're told repeatedly that Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are our friends




Wrong. We are told their govts are cooperating with us on the war on terror. The majority of americans are definitely not under the impression these are friendly countries nor has anyone in the bush admin suggested the populations of these countries are "friendly" toward americans.

Quote:

North Korea was a part of the axis of evil




Excellent point, I'm sure you have also noticed they are way ahead of iran in weapons capability, they even launched missiles towards japan didn't they? Yet nothing is ever done and it's called "saber rattling". Iran hasn't launched any missiles towards isreal, yet we hear about iran's supposed "threat" all the time. Why? Could it be that they have such close relations with arab populations? Sure they are persian, but does the majority of americans realize the difference between persians and arabs? I'm not even sure I realize what that difference is other than the history involved. For all practical purposes, iran has the same type of people as saudi arabia, iraq and all the other muslim countries.

Quote:

I also know that you are basing your argument on Bush imprisoning people for the "War on Drugs".




Wrong. I am not in anyway insinuating that bush started the war on drugs nor basing my argument on bush specifically imprisoning people for it. What I am trying to do, is to tear down their argument that there is a terrorism threat at all to american soil from the outside. I know exactly when the WoD was started and by whom. What it shows us (those willing to examine it closely) is that the american govt (all admins involved) and the people are willing to see others imprisoned for bullshit reasons. So trying to suggest that any administration is "afraid" of being called racist when confronting national security is naive. Just look at the war on drugs to see they have no problems imprisoning people for unjust reasons, race would not get in there way unless it's against blacks or mexicans. Simply because there are too many of them and they don't want riots. If the arabs rioted in the US how many cities would be effected? Like they are worried about that.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: the writ [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6143943 - 10/07/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
When bush says, "we don't want a mushroom cloud in our cities" what race of people do you think millions of americans imagined causing such destruction? Do you think they thought, "wow it could be anyone to do that" or do you think they thought "it's those damn a-rabs just like on 9/11!"?



I'm sorry that you don't have more faith in the ability of the American people to think for themselves and differentiate between extremists and an entire ethnic group.

Personally, I think that the American people can make that differentiation, I think that the mere of existance of opposition to the patriot act is proof of that. I think that the tolerance in America of private Islamic schools, and Arab community organizations is proof as well. I also think the fact that American public schools teach about Japanese Internment and why it was wrong is proof of the ability of the American public to differentiate between the actions of members of an ethnic group and the group as a whole.

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Wrong. We are told their govts are cooperating with us on the war on terror. The majority of americans are definitely not under the impression these are friendly countries nor has anyone in the bush admin suggested the populations of these countries are "friendly" toward americans.



I respectfully disagree, quoting from Bush/Abdullah joint statement released in April of 2005:

"Today, we renewed our personal friendship and that between our nations. In our meeting we agreed that momentous changes in the world call on us to forge a new relationship between our two countries -- a strengthened partnership that builds on our past partnership, meets today's challenges, and embraces the opportunities our nations will face in the next sixty years. "

I would suggest that this goes quite a bit farther than mere "cooperation". I would also like to know how you can tell that the majority of Americans think these nations are not our friends. Can you site some polls or something?

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Iran hasn't launched any missiles towards isreal, yet we hear about iran's supposed "threat" all the time.



Are you trying to suggest we don't hear about North Korea all the time? North Korea has made the first page of the news just as often as Iran has (escept possibly during the recent war in Lebanon). CNN, BBC, everywhere you look North Korea is reported upon.

We've also taken more direct military action against North Korea than we have against Iran. As early as 2003 we positioned aditional bombers in South Korea at the first mention of a nuclear capable North, we have a substantial military force already based there, and we have naval operations in the Pacific all the time.

What actual troop/material movements have we made to threaten Iran?

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
What I am trying to do, is to tear down their argument that there is a terrorism threat at all to american soil from the outside. I know exactly when the WoD was started and by whom. What it shows us (those willing to examine it closely) is that the american govt (all admins involved) and the people are willing to see others imprisoned for bullshit reasons.



This doesn't make sense. The US government imprisons people for 1 bad reason, so they must be willing to imprison people for a other bad reasons?

The American people have shown time and again that while they tolerate the war on drugs, they will not tolerate racism (Affirmative Action, Anti-profiling initiatives, etc.)

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: the writ [Re: Economist]
    #6144235 - 10/07/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sorry that you don't have more faith in the ability of the American people to think for themselves and differentiate between extremists and an entire ethnic group.





I was not saying america would blame all arabs if we got hit with a dirty bomb. What I am saying, is that if we got hit with a dirty bomb, the public would instantly think "arabs". Which is the exact effect the govt is going for. They are making us think arabs are a threat to our homeland soil. And if it makes you feel better, then I am referring to "extremists" not all arabs. But as the recent iraq intelligence report concluded, more and more arabs are becoming extremists due to our invasion.

Quote:

"Today, we renewed our personal friendship and that between our nations. In our meeting we agreed that momentous changes in the world call on us to forge a new relationship between our two countries -- a strengthened partnership that builds on our past partnership, meets today's challenges, and embraces the opportunities our nations will face in the next sixty years. "




Let me rewrite this the way it should be to accurately represent reality.

"Today, we renewed our personal friendship and that between our governments. In our meeting we agreed that momentous changes in the world call on us to forge a new relationship between our two governments-- a strengthened partnership that builds on our past partnership, meets today's challenges, and embraces the opportunities our governments will face in the next sixty years. "

Bush can say whatever he wants about the "people" of SA that doesn't make it so. If those people even had anything remotely close to a democracy they would fire their current leaders in a heartbeat and someone like the leader of iran would run SA who actually represents the peoples views. But they don't have that option so they enjoy a dictatorship that agrees to give us all the oil we want.

Our govts might be friendly enough to hold hands, but I don't need to dig up any polls to know arabs in SA chant "death to america" on a regular basis.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/14/MN95334.DTL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29_May_2004_Al-Khobar_massacres

And this gem

Quote:

Due to concerns about the possibility of additional terrorist activity directed against American citizens and interests, the Department of State continues to warn U.S. citizens to defer non-essential travel to Saudi Arabia.



http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_932.html

Oh yeah, we are the best of friends  :rolleyes:

Quote:

We've also taken more direct military action against North Korea than we have against Iran.




I'm sure NK is just so worried about the placement of some bombers.  :rolleyes: They know damn well we don't have to move bombers around to bomb them, we can do it from US soil if we want. So I fail to see why moving bombers closer to there would make them worry any more than usual. Besides, they have china's protection anyway. NK knows it can almost get away with murder, so to speak, without having to worry about direct US force. Iran on the other hand, has the bulk of the entire US military planted on it's doorstep.

Which would worry you more, massive ground forces or a few dozen bombers? Our media focuses on iran alot more than NK, all I have to do is watch cable news for a day to see that.

Quote:

This doesn't make sense. The US government imprisons people for 1 bad reason, so they must be willing to imprison people for a other bad reasons?




If I beat my wife for one bad reason, does that mean it would be the only reason I would beat her?


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineBasilides
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
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Re: the writ [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6144261 - 10/07/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

They are making us think arabs are a threat to our homeland soil.




Got any evidence of this? The Bush administration has never mentioned "Arabs". They speak of Islamic extremists, or when it is Bush speaking personally, 'Islamofascists'. There is no evidence to suggest the government is maliciously scapegoating any ethnic group. This is just fear mongering.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: the writ [Re: Basilides]
    #6144687 - 10/07/06 08:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

They are making us think arabs are a threat to our homeland soil.




Got any evidence of this? The Bush administration has never mentioned "Arabs". They speak of Islamic extremists, or when it is Bush speaking personally, 'Islamofascists'. There is no evidence to suggest the government is maliciously scapegoating any ethnic group. This is just fear mongering.




Right, government isn't to blame for scapegoating of the ethnic group. That is merely an effect of people's ignorance.

Japanese people were unilaterally mistreated due to the same kind of ignorance during WWII (although the propaganda at the time contributed to that). It's entirely ourselves who are to blame for this racism.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
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Re: the writ [Re: Economist]
    #6146129 - 10/08/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Or, you know, they could have learned from the Internment Camps example that it's wrong to lock people up based upon nothing aside from their race, and they don't want to repeat that mistake.




The recent $ 350 million no-bid contract to KBR/Halliburton to build detention camps in the United States may be used later to house some people. What should the selection committee base their enrollment decisions on?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: the writ [Re: Konnrade]
    #6146383 - 10/08/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

They are making us think arabs are a threat to our homeland soil.




Got any evidence of this? The Bush administration has never mentioned "Arabs". They speak of Islamic extremists, or when it is Bush speaking personally, 'Islamofascists'. There is no evidence to suggest the government is maliciously scapegoating any ethnic group. This is just fear mongering.




Right, government isn't to blame for scapegoating of the ethnic group. That is merely an effect of people's ignorance.




It is not ignorant at all to make an observation that one group of people (foreign males between the ages of 19 and 35 of a strict Islamic faith) is responsible for almost every single terroristic act committed in the world in the last two decades and to perhaps apply a little more scrutiny to their activities. Couple that with a rather piss poor record of their less lunatic co-religionists in speaking against and taking action to stop them, and it becomes clear that it is neither ignorant nor immoral to call their motivation into question. Just as an example, the leading Muslim spokespiece in this country, CAIR, has had several former leaders convicted of aiding terrorists
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43805

No, it is ignorant to ignore the obvious. Immoral, too. When I was listening to live eyewiness accounts of 9/11 as it was happening and the second plane screwed into the other building, I knew right away it was al-qaeda. And I was right. Based on their past behaviour and words.

It reminds me of the old joke when the woman asks her boyfriend if the dress makes her look fat. No, it is not the government that is making American people distrust Muslims, it is Muslims themselves. When they assassinate filmmakers for pointing out their flaws, threaten cartoonists for making fun of them and their prophet, attempt to murder an author for his books, when gangs of illegal Islamic thugs riot in the streets of France and their families commit honor killings if a daughter looks outside the faith of her fathers, when rape victims are sentenced to be fucked by the rest of the clan for driving the rapist to his act, AND THERE IS NO GENERAL OUTCRY AGAINST IT, they deserve every bit of my disgust and suspicion. Add the endless, well attended denunciations of the Great Satan.

It would be truly ignorant to think otherwise.
Quote:



Japanese people were unilaterally mistreated due to the same kind of ignorance during WWII (although the propaganda at the time contributed to that). It's entirely ourselves who are to blame for this racism.




Let's make an important distinction here, which you ignore (there's that word root again) It was Japanese-AMERICANS who were wrongfully mistreated. Everything the JAPANESE people got they deserved. Was it ignorant to be suspicious of newly arrived immigrants with perhaps questionable loyalties from such an obviously war-like nation? No, I don't think so. Was it ignorant to be suspicious of long time US citizens several decades removed from their departure from Japan? Still no, not ignorant. Wrong and unfair, but not ignorant. It wasn't racist either. Were ethnic Chinese rounded up? No, they weren't.

As part of your continuing education, Islam is not a race. As a further effort to contribute to your education, it is not ignorant to note that the car creening down the street totally out of control is a greater threat than one being sensibly driven. Those who cannot discern the difference will probably be hurt in an accident at some point. I'd rather not be a passenger in that person's car. Ever.
(Just so you don't misunderstand the metaphor, the car creening down the street out of control is Islam as a whole, not an Islamic terrorist. I'm sure they drive quite carefully)

Just to make myself perfectly clear, I would eliminate any travel to the US by any foreign Islamic male between the ages of 16 and 40.
No passports accepted at all from all of the mideast and no one named muhammed, rachman, ismael, or with an "al" in his name. Sexist, ageist, theist. Not racist. Any that are here need to get the fuck out the second their visa expires and be rounded up forthwith if they don't do it themselves. They enter our country at our discretion and invitation and under our terms. If they don't like it they can stay the fuck home. Or go somewhere else, I won't care. If they have family here their family can go see them anywhere else it wants, not my problem. Just not here. We don't need them. No more "students" like those assholes who never showed up in Wyoming(?) Ignorant is to ignore the fact that there is far too prevalent an abuse of student visas. When they manage to contribute to getting a hold on their more virulent brethren they will be welcomed again. Until then, they have lost a privelege. Maybe they can earn it back, someday. As of right now, though, it is pretty clear that far too many of them only want to date us so they can fuck us. There are a whole lot more girls to choose from that we don't have to take them.


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OfflineEconomist
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
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Re: the writ [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #6146877 - 10/08/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
The recent $ 350 million no-bid contract to KBR/Halliburton to build detention camps in the United States may be used later to house some people. What should the selection committee base their enrollment decisions on?



Probable cause, the same standard we base all our other detentions on.

@Rosettastoned

So, still no evidence showing that Americans believe "Arabs" are the enemy? You can repeat a point again and again, but that won't make it any more true. I also don't understand why you added the word "governments" to the statement I quoted. What I posted was an exact quote, what does modifying it so that it's no longer an exact quote accomplish?

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