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Offlinemoho456
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Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics.
    #6114453 - 09/29/06 07:14 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

If any of you know about Plato's world of being versus his world of becoming, I am starting to wonder, what if psychadelics are a window into this world. I was inspired by people who say they get deja vu when they are really tripping.

What if this is an open window into the world of being and your eternal soul is recalling all it once knew? What if psychadelics are a sort of "cheat code" for life and reaching the good, brief glimpses into the land of the dead, glimpses of serene and timeless joy, a joy as old as suffering and dispair (to quote Burroughs).


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: moho456]
    #6116231 - 09/29/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I think so.

It is quite possible that Socrates and his student Plato developed their philosophies under the influence of psychedelics (Delphi oracle).

In the Symposium we read that Socrates first heard of the "Form of Beauty" from Diotima, a name that one of my professors said translates as "witch from witchville". Beauty was the first of the eternal forms grasped by Socrates, and only later did he speak of the "Form of Good" as the highest reality, though latter philosophers have equated the two. It is quite likely that Diotima, being a witch, used some kind of psychedelic plants or mushrooms, and even if Socrates and Plato never personally consumed them, there philosophy would nonetheless be rooted in the experiences of diotima, who first spoke of the eternal forms.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: moho456]
    #6116506 - 09/29/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

According to Gordon Wasson, Plato did participate in the mysteries at Eleusis and imbibed Kykeon there.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: moho456]
    #6117294 - 09/29/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Awakening, a la Plato is anamnesia. His notion of the Ideal, of Archetypes, of Reality underlying the phenomenal world seems quite psychedelic. It has been postulated that Plato's teacher Socrates was put to death for acquiring and disseminating the psychedelic 'Kykeon' of the Eleusinian Mysteries to his students - outside the sacred precinct of the rituals. Revealing the Mysteries was punishable by death, so the 'corruption of youth' charge was not particularly accurate.

If Socrates and Plato were informed by the Psychedelic Experience, so is Christianity in a huge degree, yet this is unknown to most Christians from time immemorial. The Platonic Logos, psychedelically experienced, which would be Gnosis, may have directly influenced the most influential Christian writing of all - the Gospel of John. John at Patmos was himself a visionary, and perhaps, like St. Anthony of the Desert, John was a willing or unwilling subject of ergot-induced visions. He probably was not referring to Philo of Alexandria (the Jewish Platonist contemporaneous with Jesus). In any event, you are getting a Gnostic sensibility in your speculations.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6117310 - 09/29/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Whenever I do acid, I always feel like I'm accessing Plato's realm of the ideals.


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6117565 - 09/30/06 12:59 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Whenever I do acid, I always feel like I'm accessing Plato's realm of the ideals.




Ram Dass said that the Causal Plane is a plane of Pure Idea and Plato had something to do with this, although i forget exactly how Plato is connected.  this makes me think of something i read once, that the whole creation is merely an idea in the mind of God?????? thats trippy.  hindus believe that after a time the whole creation will just dissolve back into the creator, instantly, then after an equal period, creation will start again. 

"What does Krishna mean by the beginning of creation? According to the Puranas (Vedic histories), there have been innumerable creations in the course of cyclical time. The basic unit of Vedic cyclical time is the day of Brahma, which lasts 4.32 billion years. The day of Brahma (also called a kalpa) is followed by a night of Brahma, also lasting 4.32 billion years. The cycle of days and nights of Brahma toes(sic) on for Brahma's lifetime of one hundred years (36,000 nights), equivalent to 311.04 trillion of our human years. During the day of Brahma, life, including human life, is manifest. During the night of Brahma, life is not manifest."

i hope this isn't a derailment but i will address the original post now...

i once had a weeklong dejavu while hitchiking.  every new place i went, without fail, i had been there before.  but i had never been there.  it was begun after a super dejavu experience at the beginning... at first i was like "WHOA" i've been here before, then i heard this clinking sound, like metal on a huge flagpole... the sound that metal masts on ships make, and i had a vivid memory of this experience of the clinking sound, and the buildings and everything and i was experiencing it exactly as i remembered, but i had NEVER BEEN EVEN CLOSE TO that area before.  the memory was weird, because i had never known about that memory until right before it happened.  it was like, wow i've been here before, then all of a sudden it was like remembering a dream i had and i instantly knew what was about to happen.
and it happened and for the next week, no matter where i decided to go, i had dejavu when i arrived, but i never quite knew i had been there until i was there, then it was like aha, wow, i've been here, feels nice to be back.  then when i was travelling i wouldn't have dejavu, but then i would get to a gas station and have dejavu, then at the next town it happens again and i decide to move on, then it happens again.  the first time though i definitely knew the future so i wasn't making it up.  weirdness.  also, isn't deja vu usually the feeling that something is weird?  because i dejavu'ed everything.  like, i've seen that building, all the details and everything.
on psychadelics i have felt that everywhere is the same, so that is sort of like dejavu  :thumbup: good luck


Edited by sleepy (09/30/06 01:10 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: Silversoul]
    #6118177 - 09/30/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Whenever I do acid, I always feel like I'm accessing Plato's realm of the ideals.




Yes, me too.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemoho456
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6119549 - 09/30/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sleepy - Plato holds the belief that when we are carnated (born into this world) our soul already knows everything as it is from the world of ideals and being. It is all lost, however, when we are inserted into this imperfect body in the physical world of becoming. My thoughts are that when tripping on a psychadelic, one experiences the memories from the world of being. Perhaps this relates to your deja vu, you are recalling all your perfect ideal soul once knew!

Silversoul and Markos the Gnostic hit the nail on the head. Precisely my question and what I was aiming at!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: sleepy]
    #6120415 - 10/01/06 02:16 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

We just bought 'The Matrix' boxed set plus extra stuff that came with it (35 hours total). Today I bought a book: Philosophers Explore the Matrix by Christopher Grau. The series of movies is Gnostic and Buddhist primarily in its philosophy and deals with these metaphysical concerns.

Creation is, as I like to understand it, an 'externalized' idea in The Mind of God. Like the exquisite details of my own dreams, which evaporate upon awakening, God has had aeons to consider creation from quarks to atoms to molecules to matter to cells to tissue to organisms to creatures to biospheres to ecosystems to planetary existence to solar systems to galaxies, etc. The Great Chain of Being. Insofar as we participate and derive moment-to-moment existence from the Creator, we also exist as Ideas in the Divine Mind. Inasmuch as the Ideas of the Divine Mind are Divine, they [we] are also eternal Ideas and as such, we have Eternal Life - not in space-time of course, but better - in God.

It does not have to be an 'oscillating cosmology,' but it doesn't matter. 'We' may be floored by the immensity of it all, and feel insignificant and subsequently depressed, but God is big enough to acknowledge all of the Eternal ideas of which we are made. We are each living Ideas in a 'memory' of Infinite capacity. In the words of Jesus: "Be of good cheer."

Peace.
-MtG


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/02/06 12:09 AM)


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: moho456]
    #6120666 - 10/01/06 05:26 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Personally I dont think your "going somewhere else" per say, but on a psychedelic, I belive you can get right deep down into the human subconcious, and deep enough down, it seems like it cant just be your own subconcious, its the world of archetypes, and symbols.

Weather we come with this hardwired into our brains, which isnt as hard to belive as it sounds, DNA is full of information, much of which, we dont understand,...

OR
It comes in from the outside, i.e. we percive things in a differnet way on psychedelics, and the normally hidden world of the subconcious mind, comes rushing to the surface.


Either way, its a rich beautiful experience, and obviously can have a lasting effect on a person.

However, let be real, not everyone is as smart or you or I, many people, are so bumb it almost makes me sick, certain drug dealers come to mind, guys that dont even know the difference between MDMA, and "pure E" :rolleyes:
(there is no difference, MDMA is what you want, cut pills are not)
Not everyone gains insight, some people, dont know, or care about the deeper aspects of psychedelics.
No matter I suppose, many of these people stop after a few doses.

But when the border line retarded trip out, and then tell everyone how great it was watching TV while they were high, the rest of us dont look so serious.

Hmm.
:bananahorsey:


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InvisibleMerkin
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6120673 - 10/01/06 05:34 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

cosmic!


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6120697 - 10/01/06 06:03 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

SEE, RETURN TO THE SOURCE:PHILOSOPHY AND THE MATRIX.

I was watching it earlier, and I am just about to watch the end.
ITS AWSOME, TO SAY THE LEAST.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Socratic/Platonic "Good", and psychadelics. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6120914 - 10/01/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Gordon Wasson engaged in a lot of speculation. No one is even sure what this initiation was about...much less whether it involved hallucinigenic drugs. Much of Wasson's "ethnography" was flawed as he was a rank amateur anthropologist. In real life he was a banker with a lot of ideas about the socially elite being cognitively superior (like Huxely). His assumptions on salvia and it's use in mesoamerican culture proved to be false. I will give him credit for bringing psychedelic mushrooms to public conciousness, however.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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