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Invisiblemrdasani
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 224
Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin
    #611740 - 04/18/02 10:09 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, I'm having trouble understanding the situation with jars innoculated via multispore syringes.

If the jar colonizes with a whole bunch of different types of mycelium, why won't it fruit as much? Why would it have less trouble if the jar was colonized with one type of mycelium?



Does this mean that the situation on the left, the two seperate colors (for this example) would not exchange nutrients to the opposite color? Is this the reason why there are less fruits on the situation on the left.

And as the opposite situation, the one on the right, it wouldn't have problems since the nutrients can be passed throughout the whole cased pan?



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"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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OfflineParticleMan
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Re: Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin [Re: mrdasani]
    #611768 - 04/18/02 10:49 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

from my understanding, some sub-strains are non-fruiting, making half of your "colors" just chunks of myc. that could be the good color had you isolated. and in real life i THINK there would be about 4-10 colors......in which likely one or more would not fruit.


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Offlinehappygrins
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Re: Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin [Re: ParticleMan]
    #611935 - 04/18/02 02:43 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Meaning?... Anno, can you enlighten us?.... Please..


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 224
Re: Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin [Re: mrdasani]
    #612458 - 04/19/02 01:00 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

*bump*


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
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Re: Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin [Re: mrdasani]
    #612495 - 04/19/02 01:43 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

When you clone a fruit you already know that it will fruit (well duh it was a fruit already!). You also know the approximate size range of the mushroom and its relative speed of growth. Now when you put that clone in an innoculation you can pretty much guess that your flushes will be very uniform.

With a multispore innoculation you get a whole bunch of unmated mycelium types. When all these types mate you have strains that may or may not be able to fruit. Some will fruit decently, some fantastic, and some not at all. I beleive once grown all the mycelium works together to gather nutrients, but it only fruits from the parts of mycelium that carry the good genetics for fruiting. If you only have good fruiters randomly dispersed throughout the casing you will only get fruits in random areas of the casing......

In short, cloning is more reliable.....this is a broken down explanation of this, these situations don't always happen etc. And anyone else who sees flaw in my statement feel free to correct it.


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OfflineParticleMan
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Re: Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin [Re: mrdasani]
    #612511 - 04/19/02 01:55 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

and on the topic of the thread, another major difference is that cloning for some ( i can not speak for all ) is actually a way of reducing contams.... at least at the point of where it hits the substrate....with agar i have not had a single contam yet at the jar stage, due to agar's ability to bring them to my attention.


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InvisibleMr. G
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Registered: 04/24/99
Posts: 46
Loc: Treasure Coast
Re: Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin [Re: mrdasani]
    #612639 - 04/19/02 06:07 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Cloning and purte strain are the same thing. Coning is a duplicate of a fruit, pure strainging is when you take a 'clone' from mycelium that has mated but not fruited. Example. You have a petri of agar and pick a ropy strand drop in syringe and fill with sterile water, shake and inocultae. Their is nothing wrong with either unless you take spores fro a clone. it will then slowly decay till your start and original master is destroyed. NEVER take spores from clones. Always go back top the masters. Multi spore is the best way to go. You don't weakenm or destroy the gene pool. Mother nature assures the strongest most adapt to your condtions survie and thrive. If you want even pinning and flushing chill cased trasys for 48-72 hours at 35f. When trays are starting to pin, throw a sheet of saran wrap or a piece of wax paper on top of casing. It will increase pinning speed dramatically. I grow clones and pure strains but only for fruit, never for spores. This fruit is demanded by my commecial and private clients, the chemical and pharmacuatical industies, is dried, shipped and used in trials for drug and chemical manufaturing and is never going to be reproduced. This is only grown in Switzerland and sent to non US labs except for ones holding the right DEA and FDA permits. Mr.G


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InvisibleMr. G
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Registered: 04/24/99
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Preventing contamination [Re: ParticleMan]
    #612648 - 04/19/02 06:22 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

If you use a cheap particle mask, and gloves (Ace and Wal-Mart) you will reduce amount of contamination by 80% or more, due to tests and studies we have run repeatedly in several level 1 and 2 Bio-Hazard Labs. You would not believe the amount of germs and bacteria in your breath. If you want to test this there is a simple experiment. Take a piece of white bread and dampen. Autoclave or pressure cook till you think it is sterile in a jar or nuke in a plastic container. Breath on it once, and cover and incubate, wow what a contamination you will have, many kinds, many things. What home growers are calling "sterile" would be laughed out of a level 1 lab. We are "pasturizing" at best, in home cultivation. You can cook seeds for 1 hours at 250f (never exceed 250f, no matter what if possible). Keep the jar without inoculating for one month, prepare it exactly like you would a contol for your experiemnt. In about 4-6 weeks seeds will sprout and grow. I promise you, it is true. It makes the B+ origin much easier to believe. Mr.G

P.S. Always soak seed over night before sterilizing. This will reduce contams as well and always let cooker cool to room temp before opening. Never use PF seal use FMF tape seal. This will reduce contams by a factor of 4x and increase air exchange and growth speed dramatically!


--------------------
"Mr.G with a rose, in and out of the garden goes, country gharden in the wind and the rain whereever he goes the people all complain!"
"The Grateful Dead" Thanks boys, I miss you Jerry!
Did it hurt that much?


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 224
Re: Preventing contamination [Re: Mr. G]
    #612651 - 04/19/02 06:32 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

My main concern about this topic is whether there is a noticible difference between the weighted yield of a multispore substrate vs. a cloned spawn substrate.

So would there be more fruits if cloned? Or would it just look more uniform in fruiting appearance but give off equal weighted yield?


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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Invisiblemrdasani
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 224
Re: Preventing contamination [Re: mrdasani]
    #612904 - 04/19/02 02:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

*bump*

Anybody know? Is there a difference between the two situations?


--------------------
"Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!" - Pink Floyd (Wish You Were Here 1975)

"Never underestimate the power of denial." -from American Beauty.


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OfflineChemical_Smile
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Re: Preventing contamination [Re: mrdasani]
    #612936 - 04/19/02 03:31 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I havent done any cloning yet but it seems that (from what I have read) if you take a clone of your biggest shroom out of a multispore batch all the fruits produced from that shroom should tend to be large like the one you cloned and large fruits = more weight.


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OfflineAlien_Jesus
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Major "?" about differences: multispore vs. clonin [Re: Mr. G]
    #617173 - 04/24/02 10:03 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I make mycellia syringes by taking a scoop out of a freshly opened jar, dropping it into a sterile jar with broken glass and peroxide water, and sucking up. Am I making clones?


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
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Re: Preventing contamination [Re: mrdasani]
    #617891 - 04/25/02 01:30 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

If you clone a crap multispore strain then you'll get crap results. What is being said is that when you use multispore innoculation you never know what type of individuals your going to get - some might be really rhizomorphic, some might be crap fruiters. Its pot luck.
With isolation you are isolating a strain that you believe will be a strong performer due to its rhizomorphic mycelia.
When you cloning your just duplicating the individual strain that you know has fruited.


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Offlinedelysid_1
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Registered: 01/17/02
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Re: Preventing contamination [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #620685 - 04/27/02 08:59 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Yo-if you take a chunk of colonized grain from a jar then you are growing and then inoculate other shit it is a mixture of various different mycellia, yeah it is a clone but a clone of many different mycellia at once, and that defeats the whole purpose of cloning to begin with. You will not have isolated a specific individual mushroom you have simply copied a bunch more mycellia. And you won't know whether it produces good fruits or not.

I would imagine that if you grew some shrooms invitro and then cloned yu would have much less contam issues. You could simply open the jar when you are ready to clone it and cut a chunk off, and that would be the only time you opened the jar thus it would be sterile.


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-delysid_1


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