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InvisibleHippie3
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Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK * 1
    #611022 - 04/17/02 05:35 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Recently, I've been experimenting with using the world's greatest disinfectant, sodium hypochloride, aka common household chlorine bleach as an additive to my dunk water.
my intention of course is to kill all contaminants while leaving the mycellia unharmed, and so far it appears to have worked.
i took 25 post-2nd flush cakes of south americans done pf style and dunked them 24 hours in a bleach solution.
i used chlorox ultra, which is rated at 6% sodium hypochloride, and diluted it 100:1 water:bleach.
i dunked each cake individually in their own jars, under refridgeration for 24 hours.
it has now been nearly 48 hours after ending the dunk, and 72 hours from 1st exposure, and there appear to be no ill effects of any kind, the cakes are nice and white and still breathing.
i also have another cake that was badly contam'd that i cut out the infection and now have soaking in a double-strength bleach dunk, that cake has pins on it so it will be interesting to see how that goes.
anyway, i'm curious to hear what you advanced cultivators think of my line of research.
we have a few threads discusing this now at mycotopia if you're interested, and i'll be happy to answer any questions.
very soon i plan to combine this bleach dunk with my skim milk dunk, in an attempt to feed the cakes in a sterile manner.
any input is welcome.
peace,
hip


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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611031 - 04/17/02 05:50 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Hmmmmmmmm I'm not sure if I'd want to consume anything that has been grown on something dunked in bleach.

Good luck



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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #611034 - 04/17/02 05:52 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

do you drink tap water in an industrialized country? or perhaps anything prepared with tap water?
its surprisingly purvasive..


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #611049 - 04/17/02 06:07 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

>do you drink tap water in an industrialized country? or perhaps anything prepared with tap water?

No, I have a filter on m incoming water supply which filters any metals or chemicals (apparently). I also have a natural spring where I live.

I'm sure tap water does not have the same quantities of sodium hypochloride as this tek, 6% @ 1:100, hmmm.
Chlorine in tap wate isn't it?
Who's to say the fruitbodies aren't 'sucking up' this stuff and concentrating it, just seems 'not' the sort of thing I'd try. Good luck with it anyway.



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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #611066 - 04/17/02 06:29 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

yup, same stuff as used in water purification plants worldwide, very safe and highly effective. nasa even used it during apollo missions to prevent terrestrial organisms from contaminating the moon.
here's some info:
Quote:
Why life's a bleach
(The Sodium Hypochlorite Story)
By Dr. John Fletcher and Don Ciancone*

*Colgate-Palmolive Canada Inc.

Sodium hypochlorite, the active ingredient in household bleach, was discovered by the French chemist Berthollet, in Javel on the outskirts of Paris, in 1787. Its ability to effectively whiten textiles was quickly discovered and put to commercial use with great success. By the end of the nineteenth century, after Louis Pasteur had discovered sodium hypochlorite's potent effectiveness against disease-causing bacteria, it became widely used as a disinfectant. Studies by numerous independent research institutes have supported the high level of disinfection effectiveness of sodium hypochlorite. It is recognized as having an unsurpassed disinfection spectrum.

Sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl, is manufactured by the reaction of molecular chlorine with sodium hydroxide and water. A small excess of sodium hydroxide is required to maintain the pH between 11 and 13 to minimize decomposition. Household bleaches usually contain 3% to 6% NaOCl whereas bleaches for Industrial & Institutional (I&I) applications are typically 10% - 12% active.

Sodium hypochlorite disproportionates spontaneously to chloride and chlorate. This disproportionation is accelerated by ionic strength, temperature and concentration of the bleach. Metals such as copper, nickel and cobalt catalyze the decomposition of sodium hypochlorite.

Every day, millions of households throughout the world rely on sodium hypochlorite bleach for their disinfection, deodorizing and cleaning needs. The world market for sodium hypochlorite bleach, marketed to the consumer, is in excess of 4,000,000 tons. This does not include the large quantities used, particularly in North America, for industrial uses such as waste water treatment and drinking water disinfection.

Sodium hypochlorite solutions are often mistakenly referred to as "chlorine bleach". This arises because of the use of chlorine in its manufacture. However, this is truly a misnomer as "chlorine" gas is not present in the product nor is it involved in the product's mode of action.

Its Many Uses and Benefits

Sodium hypochlorite has long been recognized as having outstanding disinfection properties. It has been proven by the Institute Pasteur in Paris to be the most effective disinfectant against all known pathogenic bacteria, fungi and viruses.

In recent years, the incidence of infection among certain populations has increased, in part because of less attention to basic hygiene, wider social interaction and increasing resistance of bacteria to antibiotics. When used as part of a daily hygiene regimen, sodium hypochlorite bleach can be effective in preventing infections by eliminating surface germs, bacteria and viruses that cause them.

It is widely used in homes, schools, hospitals, swimming pools, drinking water supplies, and for disinfecting hard surfaces and surgical instruments. Its low cost and ready availability makes it an invaluable weapon for the maintenance of human health and proper preventative hygiene, throughout the world. This is particularly so in the developing world where it is a major contributor in the efforts to stem the debilitating consequences of cholera, dysentery, typhoid and other waterborne biotic diseases. In recent outbreaks of cholera in Latin America and the Caribbean Islands, sodium hypochlorite was an effective deterrent that minimized morbidity and mortality, as was reported at a symposium on tropical diseases conducted under the aegis of the Pasteur Institute.

Sodium hypochlorite also has an important public health role in the developed world. There is increasing consumer awareness and concern that the home can be a haven for disease-causing organisms, such as salmonella and E. Coli. Following good hygiene practices and using hypochlorite bleach has been shown to be the most effective means of minimizing these dangers. It is also very efficacious for the removal of mold and mildew.

In hospitals and other health care facilities bleach is used to disinfect surfaces against HIV, the virus responsible for the transmission of AIDS, and Hepatitis B. In fact, many authorities, such as the Ontario Ministry of Health, specifically advocate such practices.

It has been used by NASA in the United States during the Apollo program to assure destruction of any potentially harmful organisms introduced from space missions.

Throughout the world sodium hypochlorite is used as a laundry whitener, stain remover and sanitizer both for consumer, as well as institutional laundry. It can be safely used on many washable, colourfast fabrics including cotton, polyester, nylon, acetate, linen, rayon and permanent press. It is highly effective at removing a wide range of stains and soils not totally removed by laundry detergents alone, e.g. blood, body soil, coffee, grass, mustard, red wine, etc. It provides a significant boost to the whitening and cleaning power of laundry detergents even in cold or hard water and its unique disinfecting properties assures sanitization, which is of particular importance in hospital linens for example, to reduce the possible transmission of disease.

For industrial and institutional applications the versatility and usefulness of sodium hypochlorite include:

It is used extensively in the area of water treatment to disinfect municipal drinking water and by those taking drinking water from wells.
It controls algae in open reservoirs.
It remains as one of the most effective, and certainly the most cost-effective means of contolling the zebra mussel population, the presence of which is causing serious problems for industry and the ecosystem throughout North America.
It is widely used for swimming pool water disinfection, both as a daily regimen and as a shock treatment.
It is used to treat sewage to reduce odours and increase digesting efficiency.
Chemical toilets, industrial wastes for odour control.
Cyanide waste treatment in metal finishing.
Treatment for cyanide effluent in gold mining.
Air scrubbing.
Food processing: dairy equipment sanitizing, fruit and vegetable processing, mushroom production, hog, beef and poultry production, maple syrup production, fish processing.
Precious metal recovery.
Cooling water and boiler water treatment to prevent fouling.

Human and Environmental Safety

During the last few years there has been a concerted effort to investigate and assess the human and environmental safety aspects of sodium hypochlorite. An extensive review of the literature has been undertaken by many investigators and the conclusions drawn are that sodium hypochlorite is safe for humans and the environment.

Depending on the concentration involved, hypochlorite solutions can be classified as either irritant or corrosive and appropriate precautions should be taken when using the product, carefully reading the label, adhering to cautionary warnings and following usage directions. Particular attention must be paid to not mixing with other products, such as toilet bowl cleaners, rust removers, ammonia or acids.

Although skin and mucous membrane irritation can occur when the exposure concentration is greater than 5%, these effects are reversible. The overall safety of sodium hypochlorite is further documented by reports from poison control centres in North America and Europe which show no major health effects after unintentional ingestion or skin contact. The unpleasant taste of the product prevents unintentional ingestion of significant quantities and thereby limits the extent of injuries.

It is documented that sodium hypochlorite is not a mutagen, carcinogen, teratogen or skin sensitizer. Indeed, in the context of its use in drinking water, IARC (the International Agency for Research on Cancer) has concluded that chlorinated drinking water is not a "classifiable" human carcinogen.

Under normal household use, sodium hypochlorite is broken down in the environment into table salt, oxygen and water. Other substances may be formed, to a small extent. These by-products are most often referred to as AOX (adsorbable organic halides). A great many studies have been made to provide a risk assessment of household bleach in terms of its formation of AOX.

The conclusions drawn were:

the amount of AOX is very small both in absolute terms and relative to other human activities and natural sources,
the majority of these AOX are easily degradable,
the AOXs formed are primarily water soluble and not bio-accumulative.
highly chlorinated species, such as dioxins, are not formed.
The conclusion of the Swedish Environmental Research Institute was that sodium hypochlorite "does most probably not create environmental problems when used in the right manner and in recommended quantities".

Conclusion

Sodium hypochlorite has a long history of safe use in homes, hospitals and schools, and it is widely available at low cost to consumers. It is highly beneficial to basic hygiene and good health due to its disinfecting and sanitizing qualities. It kills all known germs and a wider range of bacteria than other disinfectants, and it helps to prevent the spread of diseases through water and surfaces.


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from http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question189.htm&url=http://www.esemag.com/0596/bleach.html


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #611068 - 04/17/02 06:33 PM (19 years, 23 days ago)

I could be wrong here, but I'd wager that there isn't much sodium hypochlorite in tap water.

True, it may have been used to treat the water, but the very act of TREATING with hypochlorite changes some amount [?most] of the hypochlorite. Meaning the 'bleach' that was originally put into the treatment plant will have interacted with any organic compounds that were around, making chlorinated organic compounds. These compounds are formed when cooking your food with treated water as well. They have a different chemistry to them than the bleach from whence they came.

Example--if you put a small amount [the amount you'd use in a swimming pool] of sodium hypochlorite in absolute distilled water and put that in your eyes, it would NOT sting! It's only after the chlorine has combined with the piss and sweat and other organics in a pool that the molecules that 'sting' are created.

Not a whole lot to do with the topic, but what else is new.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Suntzu]
    #611596 - 04/18/02 04:57 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

very true.
much like peroxide, bleach is quickly broken down into other compounds, notably table salt and water and oxygen.
and my bleach-dunked cakes are whitening up nicely now,
it's quite obvious that no damage was done by the prolonged exposure to bleach.
the implications of this are huge, as bleach is far superior to peroxide as a disinfectant.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Suntzu]
    #611604 - 04/18/02 05:02 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

Mushrooms have this strange capability to transform bleach into Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCB's), that accumulate in fruitbodies and are cancerogenic.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #611626 - 04/18/02 05:53 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

prove what you say.
i want to see evidence for that claim.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611629 - 04/18/02 05:56 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

I cannot prove it, I will give you exact reference later when I get home from work. I'm not really sure but I think I read it in Growing gourmet and medicinal mushrooms by Stamets. He has a paragraph about your method.

However, this thing could be true only for some mushrooms. I would just be cautious. There should be a simple test for PCB's since it's a common water pollutant.


Edited by zeronio (04/18/02 06:01 AM)


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #611643 - 04/18/02 06:17 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

i've been searching for info on this, and the only thing i found was that certain lignin-eating shroom species were being used to clean up dioxin contams.
prolly where someone got that, but cubies aren't lignin-eating.
they eat dung, not wood.
i did find this about chlorine:
"Trihalomethanes (THMs) are organic chemicals that may form when chlorine is used to treat water supplies that contain humic compounds. Humic compounds form as a part of the decomposition of organic materials such as leaves, grass, wood or animal wastes. Because THMs are very seldom associated with groundwater, they are primarily a concern where surface water supplies are used. Lifetime consumption of water supplies with THMs at a level greater than 0.10 milligrams per liter is considered by the Environmental Protection Agency to be a potential cause of cancer. THMs can be removed from drinking water through use of an activated carbon filter."
so perhaps one should avoid bleach if using wood-products, compost or dung,
but for pf style cakes containing only rice & vermiculite, it should be perfectly safe.


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/18/02 07:18 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611663 - 04/18/02 07:16 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

http://www.cqs.com/edioxin.htm
....
It has been a hazard downstream of paper mills (where chlorine bleach combines with natural organics in wood pulp and produces dioxin).
....
Avoid all organic chemicals that have "chloro" as part of their names (such as the wood preservative pentachlorophenol, which is probably the most dioxin-contaminated household chemical). Avoid chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and products containing it. (Use oxygen bleach instead). Use unbleached paper products.
...


I'm sorrry for your shrooms... Maybe you can give them to your enemies!


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #611665 - 04/18/02 07:24 AM (19 years, 23 days ago)

lol
that info does nothing to bolster your case.
it also says i shouldn't eat beef, pork, fish, milk, ice cream, etc.
everyone knows dioxins are harmful,
but where does it show that household bleach turns into dioxins in the shrooms ?
we're not using any wood-byproducts here,
just rice and vermiculite.
ok, i've been doing alot more reading on this matter, and there seems to be some concern about the potential interaction of bleach with wood and wood-byproducts, as well as with decayed organic matter such as leaves, twigs, even dung.
it seems that dioxins can form, posing a potential health hazard.
so if you intend to try bleach as a disinfectant dunk, etc.
don't combine it with any wood/dung/etc.
that basically means we're ok with straight pf cakes, and vermiculite, but that's about it


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/18/02 07:41 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611746 - 04/18/02 10:20 AM (19 years, 22 days ago)

Cool but not very new in my opinion....
Chlorinated wated is widely used for strerility purpose. I remember that stamets talks about using slightly chlorinated water (in TMC).
My bro who's studying DNA of plants, uses to soak rare seeds in chlorinated water to kill any competitor.It works wonder, with no damage to the seeds.
If mycelium can survive a heavy H2O2 bath, why not a slightly chlorinated one??
The point is to be sure that there can't be any health problems later....



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: duss69]
    #611805 - 04/18/02 12:17 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

The only thing I remember off the top of my head is that TMC mentions using slightly chlorinated water (something in the ppm range) when watering beds with mature shrooms to help prevent bacterial blotch and related contams which form on wet mature caps.

On the other hand, I haven't done any research whatsoever. So I don't know if the problem is only from bleach contacting wood or compost as you say it hippie. It sounds more like what you are saying is decaying organic material which is bad. BR which has been partially digested by a fungus sounds like decaying organic material to me. Just as much as composted leaves, dung or wood for that matter. It's all just a matter of different ratios of the same nutrients being consumed by similar organisms, right?

On the other hand, one must consider the relatively small amounts of these mushrooms that we consume. Even the most hardcore of us can't trip more than once a week for extended periods of time. Eating from 2-5 grams each time. Even if the chems are concentrated in the shrooms, I wonder if it's possible to reach harmful levels, given the small amounts of shrooms we consume.

How about somebody doing the worst case scenario math. Assume all the bleach in hips 6% 1:100 solution is converted to nasty chems, and assume that most of these end up in the fruits. Then compare that to danger levels of the chems. This truly would be worst case scenario because I imagine most of the harmful chems would be drained with the solution, a good bit of those remaining would remain on the cake, not the fruit. But it would give you an idea of how bad it could be.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycofile]
    #612091 - 04/18/02 06:01 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

Agree 100% Insomnia;
GGMM 2nd ed. has a specific section called 'bleach bath method' for pastuerizing bulk subs.  I don't know the page number or anything, but I specifically remember it.  It's right next to the 'hydrated lime bath' method, and another method that involves letting the bulk substrate ferment in its own juices for a few days.
So besides the bleach, it looks like there are a couple more ideas you can call your own :smile: 


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycofile]
    #612136 - 04/18/02 07:04 PM (19 years, 22 days ago)

I think your body holds PCB's in lipids for a while and will release them if you start to lose weight and is also concentrated in the breast milk of women, so it would most likely be a problem even in small amounts.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ParticleMan]
    #612641 - 04/19/02 06:09 AM (19 years, 22 days ago)

but there's a big difference between huge paper mills processing millions of pounds of wood pulp with tens of thousands of gallons of bleach under industrial conditions and what i'm talking about.
if even stamets talks about a bleach bath, then where's the harm ?
so far i haven't seen one shred of evidence to support the idea that shrooms convert bleach into pcb's and concentrate them in their tissues, as claimed.
the only thing i've found is the dioxin scare about the paper mills out west, and even then if you lived downstream and drank their contaminated water your whole life, you'd still have only a slight chance to get cancer.
which still has nothing to do with dunking cakes in a dilute bleach solution to disinfect them.
and suntzu, i only take credit for what i do.
no harm in that.
and btw, my bleach-dunked cakes are still thriving.
and mycofile, a 100:1 dilution of standard bottled bleach like i used works out to about 500 ppm.


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/19/02 06:37 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3] * 1
    #612696 - 04/19/02 09:06 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I didn't find the reference... I got probably some things mixed up.
Dioxin is produced when bleach comes in contact with organic matter and some mushrooms tend to concentrate pollutants like heavy metals from substrate -> that's why I thought that I read somewhere that mushrooms collect dioxin from substrate.

Anyway I agree that quantities ingested are so small that even if that was true, dioxin levels would be harmless.

So... good luck and buon apetito!


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #612712 - 04/19/02 09:42 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

some species of shrooms, notably a few wood-eating species do take in dioxin, they're being used to clean up dioxin contams by the epa.
but not cubies, which don't eat wood.
i've been digging all over the web now for a couple days and i cannot find one single piece of documentation showing any real risk for the procedure i used.
in fact, the vast majority of references say how safe it is, with mostly fringe groups like greenpeace claiming it's harmful.
and even they have to admit that dioxin is everywhere already, in our food and water, which we consume far more of on a daily basis than we could possibly get from years of eating shrooms.
this tek is a keeper, folks.
sure, don't do it if you're worried.
i'm not trying to twist anyone's arm on the issue.
but i'm satisfied that it's safe,
esp. now that i know even stamets has tested it.
and the next time i see green mold, i'm hitting it with bleach instead of peroxide.
and my milk-dunk/bleach wash experiment kicks off today,
with 18 sa cakes on their way to 3rd flush,
i'll let you know how it grows.



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612739 - 04/19/02 10:33 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

In reply to:

"but not cubies, which don't eat wood."



Probably a moot point , but I believe it was LK who has found some cubes growing on straight wood down in GA for two seasons in a row. And then there is the infamous B+. Cubes can eat wood sometimes, now lets just hope Mr. G doesn't show up....

So far as trich goes, bleach solutions can work, but getting the level where you can knock out the trich without harming the mycelium is tricky. It's a pretty fine line. But then again, damaged mycelium is better than trich infestation. I first used a bleach solution (10%) on trich on accident. It killed the trich, but seriously affected the casing as well. Later experiments with more dilute solutions worked better, but always had an impact on the myc at strengths great enough to battle the trich. This was on casings of course, it may be easier on cakes.

Another thing to consider would be alcohol. I've also used it to battle trich on casings. Diluted, as well as full strength. As far as casings go, I think this would be better than bleach. The alcohol does tend to kill back the mycelium around the infestation, but it kills the infestation. The area where the myc is killed back is colonized by beneficial bacteria, which protect the casing until they eat all the alcohol or it evaporates it which case the mycelium moves back in and takes over. I would imagine that dilute alcohols wouldn't harm the resilient cakes, and might not pose the quasi-concerns of dioxin....

Not that I really know what I'm talking about, I never thoroughly investigated either bleach or alcohol, just tried them out of desperation, not ingenuity like you hippie.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612750 - 04/19/02 10:44 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

That probably sounded bad, don't get me wrong--experimenting is the path to enlightenment.
And along those lines, it should be said that this is not an exact repeat of Stamets' experiments. . .he used bleach solutions as a means to prep bulk substrate, not to 'decontaminate' existing mycelial growth.
Mixing bleach with milk, though, I think is a bit counterproductive in some ways. Milk, ALL milk, is heavy with bacterial growth. The threshold for pasteurization [here in WA state, anyway] is 30,000 colony forming units per mL of milk. Meaning 30,000 viable bacteria per cc is OK to be called 'pasteurized' and put on the shelf. Someone did a project at my old workplace where they grew out various milks 'off the shelf' and the averages [even for skim] was around 14,000 CFU/mL.
Let the experiments go forward, but just superficially it would seem more beneficial to separate the bleach and milk steps.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612761 - 04/19/02 10:54 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I would expect you to get a larger load of chlorinated toxins from a swimming pool than from a dunked cake in a bleach solution at 500 ppm. Don't forget, even though the solution is at 500 ppm, only a fraction of that will actually be absorbed by the cake. The majority will be left behind or drain out. Next, some of the clorine that is left over will evaporate into the air. Finally, whatever is left is going to be spread through the entire mycelium/fruitbody mass (assuming it gets absorbed). It is very unlikely that the toxins, assuming there are any, would accumulate in just the fruitbodies.

Unless somebody takes a fruitbody grown this way and runs it through GC/MS/etc to see what is in there nobody is really ever going to know if they contain bad toxins or not. Untill then we are all just pissing in the wind making guesses.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Suntzu]
    #612827 - 04/19/02 12:27 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

i'm using dried powdered milk. surely that is bacteria-free, at least initially. that way i can mix it double or even triple strength, and i keep it refridgerated to minimize bacterial reproduction.
but i agree, i think it would be better to follow the milk dunk with a short bleach dunk, it only takes 3-4 minutes for the bleach to do it's stuff. that way there's even less time for any potential toxins to be taken in, just decontaminate the surface.


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/19/02 12:35 PM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612916 - 04/19/02 02:50 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

> powdered milk. surely that is bacteria-free

I wouldn't count on any food item being bacteria free unless it has been sealed in an air tight container and gamma irradiated.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Seuss]
    #612920 - 04/19/02 02:56 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

lol
relatively free, compared to liquid milk from the store.
i didn't mean to imply that it was sterile.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #613580 - 04/20/02 08:08 AM (19 years, 20 days ago)

ok, here's some pics.
the first 2 are of bleach-dunked cakes 5 days after exposure.


this pic is of a contam'd cake that i cut out lots of green mold, dunked in dilute bleach solution, and now, 3 days later, it shows new growth and no green mold.
for more info, check the threads titled 'bleach experiment' at mycotopia.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #615331 - 04/22/02 09:22 AM (19 years, 18 days ago)

ok, here's some pics of the first batch beginning to pin after their 1% bleach dunk. this is their 3rd flush.




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Edited by Hippie3 (04/22/02 09:23 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #616566 - 04/23/02 06:28 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

here's another pic, this was a trich-infected cake which i operated on then dunked in dilute bleach solution.
only 1 pin, but it's 3rd flush so i wasn't really expecting much.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #622962 - 04/30/02 09:28 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

more info supporting the safety of this method.
read this and weep, all ye naysayers.
direct lab experiments involving sodium hypochloride [bleach] and starches [corn starch, etc.] fed to rats with no ill effects.
============================================

Toxicological evaluation of some food
additives including anticaking agents,
antimicrobials, antioxidants, emulsifiers
and thickening agents


WHO FOOD ADDITIVES SERIES NO. 5


The evaluations contained in this publication
were prepared by the Joint FAO/WHO Expert
Committee on Food Additives which met in Geneva,
25 June - 4 July 19731

World Health Organization
Geneva
1974



1 Seventeenth Report of the Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on
Food Additives, Wld Hlth Org. techn. Rep. Ser., 1974, No. 539;
FAO Nutrition Meetings Report Series, 1974, No. 53.

OXIDIZED STARCHES

Explanation

Whatever oxidizing agent is used only minor modifications of the
starch molecule are achieved in normal manufacturing practice. These
are equivalent to the introduction of 1% w/w of carboxyl (-COOH) or
0.5% w/w of keto (-CO) groups or, 3.6 carboxyl and 2.9 carbonyl groups
per 100 glucopyranose units. No chlorine is introduced into the
molecule and the final products usually contain only residues of
sodium chloride, sodium sulfate and sulfur dioxide.

BIOLOGICAL DATA

BIOCHEMICAL ASPECTS

Early comparative experiments pointed to inhibition of amylolysis
(Tremoli?res et al., 1959). In vitro digestibility by pancreatin or
saliva was used to compare slightly and highly oxidized corn starch
with unmodified corn starch and a reference starch. Maltose production
after a fixed interval of enzyme action was taken as a measure of
digestibility. The oxidized starch was 10-15% less digestible by
pancreatin than unmodified starch but there was no obvious difference
as regards salivary digestion (Shuman & Mertz, 1959). The
digestibility of oxidized wheat starch (conditions not stated) was
examined in rats by matched-feeding techniques using the modified
starch as the sole source of carbohydrate at a level of 63.7% (dry
basis) of the diet. The degree of assimilation by and the general
effects on groups of six rats over a feeding period of 28 days were
assessed from consideration of body weight changes, faecal residues,
digestibility coefficients for starch and postmortem appearance of the
animals and their gastrointestinal tracts. The digestibility
coefficients were calculated from the starch content of ingested food
and residues found in faeces and postmortem gastrointestinal contents.
Body weight gain and digestibility coefficients were practically
indistinguishable from those obtained for wheat starch or corn starch.
Nothing abnormal was noted on postmortem examination (Booher et al.,
1951).

Other studies, in three groups of three rats each, used corn
starch oxidized with 3.9, 4.5, or 5.5% hypochlorite calculated as
chlorine. This corresponds to the introduction of 0.57%, (2.04 COOH
groups per 100 glucopyranose units), 0.8%, (2.86 COOH groups per 100
glucopyranose units) and 0.9% (3.57 COOH groups per 100 glucopyranose
units) carboxyl groups. To 5 g basal diet were added 1, 2 or 4 g
modified or control starch and this diet was fed to rats for 10 days.
Comparison of digestibilities showed an apparent decrease with
increasing oxidation but no effect on caloric values. No tissue damage

was associated with the diarrhoea and caecal enlargements observed in
groups receiving 2 g or 4 g starch in their feed. Liver, kidney, heart
and spleen weights were normal. Diarrhoea and caecal enlargement are
known to occur in rats fed starches of poor digestibility or other
carbohydrates (White, 1963).

The digestibility of oxidized starches at levels of 2.5, 6 and
43.2% calculated as chlorine, equivalent to a carboxyl content of
0.32% (1.15 COOH per 100 glucopyranose units), 0.9% (3.81 COOH per
100 glucopyranose units) or 1.46% (5.23 COOH per 100 glucopyranose
units), was studied in groups of six male and six female rats. The
animals were kept for seven days on 5 g basal diet and then given
either 1 g or 2 g starch supplements for 21 days. Poor weight gain
with diarrhoea were noted only with the highly oxidized material at
both dietary levels. One rat from each of the high dietary level
groups was examined. Marked caecal dilatation was seen only in animals
fed the heavily oxidized starch. It is to be noted that this very
highly oxidized starch is a commercially unacceptable product
(Whistler & Belfort, 1961).

TOXICOLOGICAL STUDIES

Rat

Starch treated at a level of 0.375% chlorine was fed to weanling
albino rats at 70% of their diet for 10 weeks with corn starch as
control. Feeding was either unrestricted or by paired-feeding
technique. No toxic effects were noted. No details of this work,
carried out in 1944-1945, were available (Garton Sons & Co. Ltd.,
1967).

A corn starch oxidized with 5.5% chlorine using sodium
hypochlorite (carboxyl content 0.90) was fed to groups of 15 male and
15 female rats at dietary levels of 0, 5, 10 or 25% for 90 days.
No adverse effects were noted regarding general health, growth, food
intake and efficiency, haematology, serum chemistry and urine
analyses. Diarrhoea was not observed. The amount of faeces dry
matter/unit food consumed was slightly increased at 25% of the
oxidized starch in both sexes. In this group the relative weight of
the caecum was slightly increased, the effect being significant in
females only. The other organ-to-body weight ratios showed slightly
increased adrenal weights of females on the test diets, but the
differences with the controls were not dose-related. No other gross
changes were observed at autopsy. The histopathological examination
has not yet been completed (Til et al., 1973).

Comments:

The digestibility of hypochlorite-oxidized starch has been
investigated in vivo and found to be similar to that of unmodified
starch. The longest of the short-term studies reported extended only
over 10 weeks and was carried out with an inadequately defined sample.
Studies with highly oxidized starches (1.4% or more carboxyl groups)
are not applicable because these products are not acceptable for food
additive use. Provided the chemical change is limited to the
introduction of no more than 1 carboxyl group per 25 anhydro-glucose
units, the biological effects of the modified starch do not appear to
be deleterious.

EVALUATION

Estimate of acceptable daily intake for man

Temporarily not limited.*

FURTHER WORK OR INFORMATION

Required

Results of histopathological studies by 1974.

REFERENCES

Booher, L. E., Behan, I. & McMeans, E. (1951) J. Nutr., 45, 75

Garton Sons & Co. Ltd. (1967) Unpublished report

Shuman, A. C. & Mertz, E. T. (1959) Unpublished report No. 4 of Shuman
Chemical Lab. Inc. to Corn Industries Research Foundation

Til, H. P. et al. (1973) Unpublished report No. R 4081 by Centraal
Instituut voor Voedingsonderzoek TNO

Tremoli?res, J., Bernier, J. J. & Lowy, R. (1959) Nutritio et Dieta,
1, 100

Whistler, R. L. & Belfort, A. M. (1961) Science, 133, 1599

White, T. A. (1963) Cereal Science Today, 8, 48



* See relevant paragraph in the seventeenth report, pages 10-11.


See Also:
Toxicological Abbreviations
Oxidized starches (FAO Nutrition Meetings Report Series 46a)
Oxidized starches (WHO Food Additives Series 1)
Oxidized starches (WHO Food Additives Series 6)

From http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v05je74.htm

also note that they were using much stronger concentrations of bleach than my 100 to 1 dilution of 5.5% bleach.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #622999 - 04/30/02 10:27 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Remember, rats aren't people (though some people are rats).  Regardless, I still believe that you will be fine dunking as you did.  It is nice to see somebody post with references for a change.  :smile:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623114 - 04/30/02 12:53 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

My friend dunks every cake before the first flush and after all flushes and they never go contammed until 4-5th flush.

He boils up a big pot of tap water. Puts a dip down plate on top of it (too hold the cakes under). Lets it cool for half a day. Then throws the cakes in for 12 hours.

Dunking severly kicks ass and anyone growing cake wise needs to do it!.



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623339 - 04/30/02 05:04 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

AWESOME! I'm a believer! Now, how about adding Chlorox into the original PF-Tek formula? Should work, shouldn't it?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623489 - 04/30/02 08:53 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

does bleach react with h202? would it be safe to use them in combination?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623521 - 04/30/02 09:45 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

lots of good info there,
if it were a bit more up to date it would be better .

one of the toxilogical studies on the rats done was performed in 1944,
with only a 10 week study, but no long term effects studies done at all,
also there were/are no details available as to the type of procedures and controls or anything for that matter.
most of the info you provided is 40-56 years old...
back when cigarettes were not addictive nor contained any carcinogins

even back in the 70s as compared to todays tek-advancements theres a BIG gap.

More"current" "documented" studies would you help tremendously
with the nay sayers and your new found "tek"....don't you agree




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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: TCatz]
    #623821 - 05/01/02 08:01 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

newer studies would be great, but i haven't found any.
apparently once something is declared 'safe', there's very little incentive to do new studies unless there's a good reason.
presumably, though, the World Health Organisation would not be putting out info it knew was wrong.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #624660 - 05/02/02 07:32 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #624669 - 05/02/02 07:57 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

dead contams shouldn't be a problem, but hidden ones in deep where the bleach doesn't reach could be.
i'd cut out as much of the infected area as possible, then try the bleach dip for 5 minutes. just 1 part bleach to 100 parts water, much stronger causes some damage.
you may have to repeat the bleach dip every day for a few days to get it all, if there's any hope at all.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #624704 - 05/02/02 09:47 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #627752 - 05/12/02 01:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

so, any report on how that turned out ?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #631190 - 05/15/02 05:25 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #632426 - 05/16/02 03:17 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

bad info, edited out.


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Edited by Hippie3 (07/15/02 05:54 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK *DELETED* [Re: Hippie3]
    #632511 - 05/16/02 05:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by Hippie3


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #632588 - 05/16/02 06:55 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

So for a cake dunk 1 part bleach, 2 parts vineger and how many parts water?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Scourge]
    #632615 - 05/16/02 07:20 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

All I know is for the bleach tek its 100:1
100 parts water to 1 part bleach


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Scourge]
    #633095 - 05/16/02 01:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

yup, 1 part bleach, 100 parts water.
leave out the vinegar, it ruins everything.


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Edited by Hippie3 (07/15/02 05:56 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #633780 - 05/17/02 01:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Great Job Hippie3!!!

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #633817 - 05/17/02 02:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #633852 - 05/17/02 04:22 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

of course, it has it's limits.
some are just too far gone to save.
also the bleach can only kill what it can reach, contams buried deep inside a casing aren't going to be affected.
but experiments are what makes knowledge grow,
so carry on and let us know how it goes.




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Edited by Hippie3 (07/15/02 05:56 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #634564 - 05/17/02 04:54 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

the other inherant problem with this idea is that there are a myriad of different molds, each able to tolerate different levels of toxins in their environment - penicillium, cladosporium and aspergillus grow often on improperly sterilised grains - contaminants like trichoderma tend to grow on mycelia rather than bleach ridden substrate


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #634580 - 05/17/02 05:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hi Hippie3,
I must admit, I am impressed

Lots of good info here and half the reason why is because you post references and concrete evidence.

Reading over Barkas post, it got me thinking.

Barka said he/she dunks their cakes for 12 hours? I'm starting to wonder how long it would take to "suffocate" green mold? Or any mold? I mean mycelium isn't mold so I'm only guess-timating that in the case of PF cakes, the mycelium is strong enough to survive a 12 hour dunk.

Barka have you ever tried a 24 hour dunk with water only?

Just a thought.

Lana


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Lana]
    #634838 - 05/17/02 09:34 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hi Lana,

Ive taken a pie tin casing before & dunked it for 33/34hrs submerged underwater with no problems. Hope that helps.

Good luck & Happy Shroom'en


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #634961 - 05/18/02 03:02 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

bleach will kill all those, if properly applied.
and my basic intent is not to sterilize substrate itself,
but rather mycellia, which is, as you mentioned, diectly attacked by trich.
of course there will be some who try it on substrate, but i haven't done any experiments on such questions as will mycellia colonize bleach-laden substrate.
all i've used it for is as a sanitizing dip for fully colonized cakes, and to keep everything nice and clean in my terrariums.
i'm sure there are plenty of contam cases where this tek will not be helpful, but there will also be success stories like the one i posted in the 'cultivation' forum entitled 'beating green mold'.
i'm not claiming bleach dipping is some wonderful miracle cure-all,
it's just another tool in our arsenal to fight back at invaders in our grow ops.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #639337 - 05/21/02 03:59 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What about using it with birdseed? It's still in the jar but will be cased with 50/50+.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #639828 - 05/22/02 02:54 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

if it were me, i'd use the very dilute bleach solution [NO MORE THAN 1 part bleach per 100 water] to mist my casing, thus keeping any contams from getting a foothold.
it's easier to keep contams away than it is to get rid of ones already there.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #644256 - 05/25/02 03:52 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #644909 - 05/25/02 04:47 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

what is the formula you used ?
it seems that it can cause a few deformities due to the extrtemely low ph of bleach.


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Edited by Hippie3 (07/15/02 05:58 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #644979 - 05/25/02 06:10 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #646072 - 05/26/02 01:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

sorry, this is still experimental stuff and it's reports like yours that will help perfect it better.
are all of them deformed, most or just some ?
is the flush average size, about what you expected or what ?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #647022 - 05/27/02 02:02 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #647058 - 05/27/02 02:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

ah, well, i guess anything is better than the nothing one usually gets from contam'd cakes.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Hippie3]
    #647099 - 05/27/02 04:53 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Alien]
    #647108 - 05/27/02 05:14 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, i miss the 'old days' here, too.
there were tons of great informative posts,
from you, shroomgod, shroomwizard, ryche, and many others.
but hey, it's still a great site, lots of people being taught.
and new teks still coming.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #654599 - 05/30/02 10:45 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Someday I'll make you proud Pah!


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ShroomNewb]
    #654858 - 05/31/02 05:40 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

more results, with pics here-
cult forum


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #663150 - 06/04/02 08:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I recently tried 4 jars and all of them got contaminated with a greyish mold. They seem to be a couple days away from colonizing the whole jar. Since I am new to growing I thought that i might try the bleach method. Do you think i should let the entire jar colonize then dunk it in the bleach/water misture? I figure since i got another 4 that i started today I won't eat the shrooms even if this seems to work just want experience. I also got a camera so I can post pictures along the way. Here is a pic of my jar now.
Suggestions appreciated



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: PuffinSmoke]
    #663474 - 06/05/02 03:21 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I say give it a whirl. Experimenting is fun especially with a cake you don't really care about. Btw nice pic.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: We_come_in_peace]
    #666928 - 06/07/02 07:01 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I tried this tek the other day with bleach and vinegar. it was definitly more diluted than 1/100, but when i removed the cake is smelled very poolish, clorine smell is quite noticable, and all the fuzz and stuff that was on the cake is gone and it looks a lot smoother, im hoping i didnt kill my cake by doing this. does anyone else have any experience with having your cakes look a little problamatic at first and then having them recover and come back and produce fruits?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: _Lucid_]
    #668213 - 06/08/02 03:50 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

it's ok, mine looked bad for a day then went on to fruit great.
but do not use vinegar in the mix , it ruins it.
here's a few more testimonials from members at mycotopia.net----
In reply to:

By cowshitblues (Cowshitblues) on Saturday, June 08, 2002 - 11:01 am: Edit


but i have noticed.. and i bleach dunk prior to birth and after each flush... no contams.. all the cakes will be able to fully fruit.. thanx hip on the milk... i love it... invitro is making fatties.. and my others too many too mention are noticable healthier and bigger yields




here's another---
In reply to:

By eI33t (Ei33t) on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Something is up with that bleach tek. Im totally positive about it. On some of my first post about this, i mentioned my friend that had some contamed cakes, he had 5 jars, but he wound up only casing 3, which the other 2 would have been fine, but hes new. Anyways, we smelled contams so we did a 24 hour 1 teaspoon bleach dunk diluted with water. He crumbled one, and left the other 2 as cakes. The crumbled one started pinning from hell. Amazonian a la PF. In less than a few days he had a mega yeild. This would have blew your socks off. My friend got busted by the 'rents . there were only 3 cakes. he picked 5 of them and you couldnt tell anything had been touched(for parental reasons). Those 5 came out at 4 grams dry. I dont have the head count. They were meaty. I asked him what the head count was, not counting little bitty aborts, but there were not really any aborts! Didnt someone already have a little phenomenon with PFC's similar to this? but, i asked him to be fair on how many he thought were in there, safel count, and meaty ones like the ones he brought to me. He said 35, and thats being safe.

I only wish I had pics of his shit. We tryed to get some pics. Something is up with that bleach man!!! It does some funny things!!! We WILL be recreating this again, using the exact same conditions just like we did before.

Btw, hippie, me and my friends mouths dropped when we seen the pic of that one almost as big as the cake.

Looks like the "tek of death"(hah), is showing some crazy crazy yeilds. .







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Edited by Hippie3 (07/15/02 06:00 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #672492 - 06/11/02 02:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)



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OfflinePenguin
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #695794 - 06/23/02 09:48 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Great Tek and am considering using it. Seems like good experimenting. Has anyone consumed any of these shrooms? Can I do the tek and then case the cakes?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Penguin]
    #696350 - 06/23/02 03:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Personally, I don't drink tap water, unless I'm in a state that doesn't treat the water.(and unless that state's water doesn't need to be treated) Additionally, I'm not about to consume water or mushrooms for that matter that have been soaked or diluted or propagated with bleach or chlorine. If we we weren't so overpopulated, wasteful and damn greedy, we wouldn't need gigantic flushes or additives in our water.

Good day sir!


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Penguin]
    #696503 - 06/23/02 04:49 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #696976 - 06/23/02 08:36 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Most if not all of the Sodium Hypochlorite will break down into salt and oxygen.


Edited by kwisatz (06/23/02 08:37 PM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: BillyGrass]
    #697512 - 06/24/02 03:26 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

it's nonsense to imagine that water would be 'pure' if it weren't for modern civilization.
and you consume chlorine every time you eat food containing any salt.
and bleach dipped shrooms taste just fine, potent too.
but to each his own,
nobody's forcing anyone to do bleach dipping.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #697535 - 06/24/02 04:13 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Just a warning. Read up about Homeopathy and see if you don't change your mind. Small and large both meet at the same place.

Eeek.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #698336 - 06/24/02 02:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"it's nonsense to imagine that water would be 'pure' if it weren't for modern civilization."
to what are you refering? without the oil and pollutants, most fresh water would be relatively safe.. parasites can be delt with and are not necessarily a bad thing! (if you do not believe me, do a little reading in the research regarding immune system response and parasite infections)...
the world is not -our- oyster, we are its experiment.. never forget that..


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #699499 - 06/25/02 02:23 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

If you eat food with dioxines, it will taste good and you won't feel anything bad at all, the problem is that the acumulation of those dioxines can cause cancer, it's a long way for it to happen but you'll have more chances of having cancer.
Two things are true, this experimental tek works well and we have some confident guinea pigs.

Peace,
MAIA


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #699552 - 06/25/02 04:14 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

i agree we do have a lot of people that dont mind putting even more un-nessesary toxins in there bodies. I wouldnt do it just on princible even if the fruits grew 29 in.'s long. but thats just my opinion if you dont care you dont care. bleach ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #699622 - 06/25/02 05:34 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

It's "dioxins",but I agree.Why have MORE toxins in your life?!


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: aural]
    #701980 - 06/25/02 11:55 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"Dioxines" are the "e" of dioxins , anyway you're right... oh forget it.

Peace,
MAIA


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #702158 - 06/26/02 04:49 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

lol
you're all just talking shit.
post 1 piece of evidence to demonstrate the production of dioxin by this process if you can.
you can't, because there isn't any to be found.
just because huge paper mills produce tiny amounts of dioxin by using millions of gallons of 'bleach' to process millions of pounds of wood pulp under very specific industrial conditions/processes, does in no way show that such occurs here.
in fact, since the FDA itself recommends our formula for use on edibles i'd say that's good enough.
and it's just plain wrong to call sodium hypochlorite a 'toxin',
it's not even a poison.
nor is it carcinogenic, etc. all the info has been cited and posted yet some chose to ignore evidence in favor of shrill dramatics.
fortunately, most folks are too smart to be taken in by your fallacious arguments, and the tek is gaining acceptance despite your opposition.


as for water being 'pure' before industrial society,
you obviously know nothing about pre-industrial society,
when millions of humans perished from bad water over the centuries, primarily polluted by their own excrement,
and that of their animals.
all very 'natural', and quite unhealthy.
i daresay the water today is much safer to drink from a tap than it ever was from a stream.
and, btw, bleach is used to purify stream water to this day by survivalists.
.


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Edited by Hippie3 (06/26/02 05:53 PM)


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InvisibleJared
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Deleted [Re: Hippie3]
    #702180 - 06/26/02 05:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Content Removed.


Edited by Jared (04/01/04 03:04 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Jared]
    #702200 - 06/26/02 06:18 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

see the point is youre to busy protecting the tek that you dont understand weather bleach is toxic or not doesnt matter to me. what matters is that it is bleach. yeah no contames well a lot of people can grow without contams if youre getting them than work on your procedure. there are people like you that will injest bleach and there are people like me who wont. even if you proved that digestion of bleach did nothing still i wouldnt care. its still bleach. by the way i take it as though you know what the long term effects are? neither do i and thats scarey. you dont know what it could do to someone if anything. you sound like the tobacco company..."prove it causes cancer"...but i respect your efforts and you tek does work with great resaults.....but i dont have a problem with contams but if i did id throw it away and re grow it


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: bumboclot]
    #702354 - 06/26/02 07:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

bleach is not a poison?!
I dug out the Chlorox bottle from under the sink.Among other things,it said "IF SWALLOWED: do not induce vomiting.Call poison control center immediately."

I'm not quite as bile-filled as the poster 2 up from me,but it's no wonder so many people have a strong reaction to your "style",Hip....



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: bumboclot]
    #702355 - 06/26/02 07:58 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

WOW, GOOD WORK YOUR A CLOSED MINDED PERSON GO YOU!

I'm sorry, but even the godly shroom cannot help you because you cannot even help yourself! Listen to the evidence don't just plug your ears and chant "NANANANANANA"



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #702432 - 06/26/02 08:44 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The problem is also when some bacteria (wich is sometimes the contam you want to fight) breakdown not only the proteins but the amino acids. When they break down, straight chains amines can be produced. If you take a look here
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/NaHClO.html
In reply to:


"Sodium Hypochlorite Solution, 5.79% ....
.......
**** SECTION 10 - STABILITY AND REACTIVITY ****

Chemical Stability:
Stable under normal temperatures and pressures.
Conditions to Avoid:
Incompatible materials.
Incompatibilities with Other Materials:
Sodium hypochlorite is incompatible with amines, ammonium acetate,
ammonium carbonate, ammonium nitrate, ammonium oxalate, ammonium
phosphate, cellulose, and ethyleneimine.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:
Chlorine, sodium oxide.
Hazardous Polymerization: Has not been reported."





As you can see it is incompatible with amines, wich are very common in organic material (mycellium).
About the clorine as a hazardous decomposition product and hypochlorite Ion studies, check this
http://www.lakes-environmental.com/toxic/CHLORINE.HTML
In reply to:


"The main source of information for this fact sheet is EPA's Drinking Water Criteria Document for Chlorine, Hypochlorous Acid and Hypochlorite Ion. Other secondary sources include the Hazardous Substances Data Bank (HSDB), a database of summaries of peer-reviewed literature, and the Registry of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances (RTECS), a database of toxic effects that are not peer reviewed.....
....
Cancer Risk:

* No information is available on the carcinogenic effects of chlorine in humans from inhalation exposure.

* Several human studies have investigated the relationship between exposure to chlorinated drinking water and cancer. These studies were not designed to assess whether chlorine itself causes cancer, but whether trihalomethanes or other organic compounds occurring in drinking water as a result of chlorination are associated with an increased risk of cancer. These studies show an association between bladder and rectal cancer and chlorination byproducts in drinking water. (5)

* Chlorine has not been found to be carcinogenic in animals; no tumors were noted in a study where rats were exposed to 100 ppm chlorine in their drinking water over their lifespan, for 7 generations (see Reproductive/Developmental Effects section). (4)

* Another study evaluated the potential carcinogenicity of chlorinated drinking water in rats and mice and found no statistically significant increase in tumors that could be related to the chlorinated water. (2)

* EPA has not classified chlorine for carcinogenicity. (8)"





Might be a risk that's all.

Peace,
MAIA


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: aural]
    #703160 - 06/26/02 05:50 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

style objections aside,
bleach most certainly is not a poison.
in fact, as i said, it is used to purify water from streams of uncertain cleaness, etc.
what bleach is, is alkaline, strongly so, caustic aka basic ph around 12, which can chemically 'burn' your tissue.
but if the ph is adjusted to more neutral range
then one can safely drink the bleach solution.
it's not poisonous as such.
do some research on the matter and you'll see i'm correct.


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Edited by Hippie3 (07/15/02 06:02 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Jared]
    #703169 - 06/26/02 05:51 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

jared,
i'm glad i already banned you,
seems i made the right decision.
consider yourself fucked.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #703211 - 06/26/02 06:02 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

i've seen both those links before,
certainly no smoking gun there.
you give no info as to just what exactly occurs when sodium hypochlorite contacts 'amines'.
and the second link is talking about chlorine, which is not the same thing as bleach aka sodium hypochlorite.
salt is sodium chloride, which also contains chlorine yet surely no one calls salt a poison.
neither link directly supports the claim that this bleach dip tek creates any toxins nor is there any evidence that even if there were toxins created, that any significant amount would be absorbed and passed on to humans eating the fruit thereof.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #703216 - 06/26/02 06:03 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

This is in the wrong forum - the idea of using anti-bacterial agents to clean up colonised substrates is not new, and is not experimental. That being said, if someone needs to rely on bleach to stop their cakes/casings from contaminating they should not be posting in the advanced mushroom forum, they should be improving their technique to avoid future contamination.
The only experimenting going on here is Hippie testing his tek on other people's cakes to determine whether or not the bleach will effect the genetics of the mushroom (which im sure it will), and to test the toxicity of the solution.
Load of bs in my opinion like ive said before - and you quoted stamets out of context hippie


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #703348 - 06/26/02 06:46 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I don't why you harbor such aggression for people who do not agree with you. Take a few steps back and think for a minute..
chlorine bleach is poisonous, _especially_ if ingested. In the low concentrations it is likely not a problem, but remember that fungi have a tendency to take up and concentrate some compounds, and I do not know of any study of psilocybian mushrooms which investigated this.
"It is impossible for a man to learn what he has the conceit that he already knows" Epictetus
You certainly seem to fall within this category.
Didn?t this tek develop out of your defense for an addition to you now discarded milk-dunking tek? ?And what of your rather low yielding in vitro tek (nearly identical in effect to the ?poor man?s terrarium?)? You come up with many potentially good ideas, but refuse to take advice from others.
--
and now to your response to my water comment:
?you obviously know nothing about pre-industrial society?
I suppose living in a third world country (no street lights, period. Fewer paved roads than fingers..) and drinking directly from rivers, springs, etc. does not count? People do die from water borne illness, mostly bacterial or parasitic in origin, but nearly all of these are a result of human activity. Fecal to ingestion is a primary route, as you mentioned, but for some (mostly unheard of now) parasites it is other rather more disturbing routes... guinea worm is one which always disturbed me greatly, although it is essentially eradicated. I?ve had, perhaps still have, various water borne parasitic organisms, for example Giardiasis, but I am not dead.
Chlorine is not the recommended water purifier chemical, except for people with sensitivity to iodine or the silver based additives. Water from many, if not most, of the fresh water sources in the USA (in northern Canada this is not an issue, strangely population density is far less there.. water temp is another issue, but the lack of chemical contamination is another major aspect) cannot be safely drunk from due to the chemicals present in them.
And besides, the latest immunological studies are finding parasitic infection, especially at a younger age, prevents allergic reactions and improves immune function. Obviously if it is so major an infection that you die, this is not the case, however there are many effective cures for parasitic infection outside of a doctors office.
---
All we are saying is be careful, you are adding a chemical which you might not want in your body, so be warned. If you provide your tek but not this warning you are intentionally negligent.

Rehydration is nothing new, and in fact the casing layer acts as a water reservoir ? one of the primary purposes for using one in the first place, as you yourself have commented in the past, unless I am mistaken.

What of the consumption of the contaminant mycelium by the desired mycelium? The potentially dangerous chemicals could be transferred and eventually be ingested. Personally I see this to be of greater concern than the bleach issue, if people use this tek to make up for generally poor form in the preparation of their substrate.

Have you made any efforts to dunk with DI (de-ionized) or distilled water? Please do, if you have time and the will to spare a few cakes. Perhaps the chems you add to you dunk water effect the fruiting in other ways, and in their absence far greater yields can be achieved.
I do not wish to quash your experimentalist urges, just relax, postpone your arrogance for a time and take some advice from others.


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Edited by DinoMyc (06/26/02 06:49 PM)


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Deleted [Re: Hippie3]
    #703444 - 06/26/02 07:14 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Content Removed.


Edited by Jared (04/01/04 03:04 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Jared]
    #703522 - 06/26/02 07:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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Deleted [Re: Barbi]
    #704261 - 06/27/02 12:01 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Content Removed.


Edited by Jared (04/01/04 03:04 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #704409 - 06/27/02 12:57 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

In reply to:

you give no info as to just what exactly occurs when sodium hypochlorite contacts 'amines'.




Same thing with cellulose, in fact, the hazardous reaction is directly bound to humic acids and fluvic acids.
Both fulvic acids and humic acids found in soil result from the chemical and biological degradation of dead organisms. The formation of these substances may come about by the oxidative changes of organic fragments, microbial synthesis, or chemical condensation after biological breakdown or self-digestion of humic biomass. In addition, many of the secondary metabolites of fungi are organic acids, so they help increase the accumulation of humic-acid rich organic matter that is resistant to degradation.

In reply to:

the second link is talking about chlorine, which is not the same thing as bleach aka sodium hypochlorite.
salt is sodium chloride




If you read carefuly the bold text it says Hypoclorous Acid aka bleach.

In reply to:

neither link directly supports the claim that this bleach dip tek creates any toxins nor is there any evidence that even if there were toxins created, that any significant amount would be absorbed and passed on to humans eating the fruit thereof.




As i said, bleach itself can do you no harm, bleach reaction with humic acids is the main concern, ... whether trihalomethanes or other organic compounds occurring in drinking water as a result of chlorination are associated with an increased risk of cancer.

Peace,
MAIA


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #704500 - 06/27/02 03:09 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

let's see, i've quoted documents from the world health organisation, the food and drug administration, the universities of california and maryland--all which state that the procedure i'm using is perfectly safe.
now who should i listen to, some guys from the internet who are trying to tell me what to do without any proof,
or the organizations i cited above ?
who would you listen to--
'bluemeanie' or the botany department at UCLA ?
'dynomyk' or the world health organisation ?

the attacks are laughable.
for example, these amines mentioned are inside of living cells, not exposed to the bleach.
and i'm the guy who invented the dunk tek, too,
so i certainly have tried dunking in plain water.
noticed you forgot to mention that tek as you try
to put down my work.
and this most certainly is 'advanced',
no one has ever done this before using bleach.
the nearly 2000 hits on this thread certainly
show that many people are interested despite
efforts made to surpress this info,
and c'mon, the personal attacks aren't even worth
replying to, pretty damn lame.
and it's equally lame to characterize
contams as the fault of the grower's lax procedures,
nearly all my contams come long after colonization,
birth, and flushing have occured, caused by age
not by any lack of sterile procedure.
so why don't you guys just give it a rest ?
people are going to listen to the guys saying
'i tried it and got great results', not fearmongers.
you can't stop the spread of knowledge of this tek,
it's far too late.


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Edited by Hippie3 (06/29/02 02:29 PM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #704531 - 06/27/02 05:11 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"you can't stop the spread of knowledge of this tek,
it's far too late. "

yet another chapter in the sad saga of Hippie3 vs. some vast conspiracy...
And yet you still don't understand why things always seem to come to this?



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #704549 - 06/27/02 05:48 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

It seems like we are talking at diferent levels here, i grow mushrooms only for fun and because i like this hobbie i come here trying to get information and try to discuss related issues, it would be bad for the shroomery and for this comunity if we didn't have critical mind, it is the spirit of criticism that made possible science as it is today as surely is beneficial for any discussion. I'm just pointing out some info i saw online and some knowlodge i have, i don't want by any means discredit your idea and work, you diserve all merit, all i see is at your level things get serious, you get serious and get mad about people trying to warn some possible bad effects. If your friends at the university and organisations are positive about your idea go ahead and use it, i just don't believe there are so many tests about long term bad effects using bleach on mushrooms and i believe other people arround here think the same way. So, do you want me to be sorry for participating hippie ?
People will have to choose, let us put things this way.

Peace,
MAIA


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #704666 - 06/27/02 07:52 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Talking about online documents, have you checked this one ?
http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc216.htm
Makes me think twice,
"
2. CHEMISTRY OF DISINFECTANTS AND DISINFECTANT BY-PRODUCTS

2.1 Background

The use of chlorine (Cl2) as a water disinfectant has come under
scrutiny because of its potential to react with natural organic matter
(NOM) and form chlorinated disinfectant by-products (DBPs). Within
this context, NOM serves as the organic DBP precursor, whereas bromide
ion (Br-) serves as the inorganic precursor. Treatment strategies
generally available to water systems exceeding drinking-water
standards include removing DBP precursors and using alternative
disinfectants for primary and/or secondary (distribution system)
disinfection. Alternative disinfectant options that show promise are
chloramines (NH2Cl, monochloramine), chlorine dioxide (ClO2) and
ozone (O3). While ozone can serve as a primary disinfectant only and
chloramines as a secondary disinfectant only, both chlorine and
chlorine dioxide can serve as either primary or secondary
disinfectants.

Chloramine presents the significant advantage of virtually
eliminating the formation of chlorination by-products and, unlike
chlorine, does not react with phenols to create taste- and
odour-causing compounds. However, the required contact time for
inactivation of viruses and Giardia cysts is rarely obtainable by
chloramine post-disinfection at existing water treatment facilities
(monochloramine is significantly less biocidal than free chlorine).
More recently, the presence of nitrifying bacteria and nitrite
(NO2-) and nitrate (NO3-) production in chloraminated distribution
systems as well as the formation of organic chloramines have raised
concern.

The use of chlorine dioxide, like chloramine, can reduce the
formation of chlorinated by-products during primary disinfection.
However, production of chlorine dioxide, its decomposition and
reaction with NOM lead to the formation of by-products such as
chlorite (ClO2-), a compound that is of health concern.

If used as a primary disinfectant followed by a chloramine
residual in the distribution system, ozone can eliminate the need for
contact between DBP precursors and chlorine. Ozone is known to react
both with NOM to produce organic DBPs such as aldehydes and increase
levels of assimilable organic carbon and with bromide ion to form
bromate.

A thorough understanding of the mechanisms of DBP formation
allows microbial inactivation goals and DBP control goals to be
successfully balanced. This chapter examines a range of issues
affecting DBP formation and control to provide guidance to utilities
considering the use of various disinfecting chemicals to achieve
microbial inactivation with DBP control.

2.2 Physical and chemical properties of common disinfectants and
inorganic disinfectant by-products

The important physical and chemical properties of commonly used
disinfectants and inorganic DBPs are summarized in Table 1.

2.2.1 Chlorine

Chlorine, a gas under normal pressure and temperature, can be
compressed to a liquid and stored in cylindrical containers. Because
chlorine gas is poisonous, it is dissolved in water under vacuum, and
this concentrated solution is applied to the water being treated. For
small plants, cylinders of about 70 kg are used; for medium to large
plants, tonne containers are common; and for very large plants,
chlorine is delivered by railway tank cars or road (truck) tankers.
Chlorine is also available in granular or powdered form as calcium
hypochlorite (Ca(OCl)2) or in liquid form as sodium hypochlorite
(NaOCl; bleach).


Chlorine is used in the form of gaseous chlorine or hypochlorite
(OCl-). In either form, it acts as a potent oxidizing agent and often
dissipates in side reactions so rapidly that little disinfection is
accomplished until amounts in excess of the chlorine demand have been
added. As an oxidizing agent, chlorine reacts with a wide variety of
compounds, in particular those that are considered reducing agents
(hydrogen sulfide [H2S], manganese(II), iron(II), sulfite [SO32-],
Br-, iodide [I-], nitrite). From the point of view of DBP formation
and disinfection, these reactions may be important because they may be
fast and result in the consumption of chlorine.

Chlorine gas hydrolyses in water almost completely to form
hypochlorous acid (HOCl):

Cl2 + H2O -> HOCl + H+ + Cl-

The hypochlorous acid dissociates into hydrogen ions (H+) and
hypochlorite ions in the reversible reaction:

HOCl <-> H+ + OCl-

Hypochlorous acid is a weak acid with a p Ka of approximately
7.5 at 25?C. Hypochlorous acid, the prime disinfecting agent, is
therefore dominant at a pH below 7.5 and is a more effective
disinfectant than hypochlorite ion, which dominates above pH 7.5.

The rates of the decomposition reactions of chlorine increase as
the solution becomes more alkaline, and these reactions can
theoretically produce chlorite and chlorate (ClO3-); they occur
during the electrolysis of chloride (Cl-) solutions when the anodic
and cathodic compartments are not separated, in which case the
chlorine formed at the anode can react with the alkali formed at the
cathode. On the other hand, hypochlorous acid/hypochlorite (or
hypobromous acid/hypobromite, HOBr/OBr-) can be formed by the action
of chlorine (or bromine) in neutral or alkaline solutions."

What about this ?


"1.5.2.3 Uncertainties of epidemiological data

Even in well designed and well conducted analytical studies,
relatively poor exposure assessments were conducted. In most studies,
duration of exposure to disinfected drinking-water and the water
source were considered. These exposures were estimated from
residential histories and water utility or government records. In only
a few studies was an attempt made to estimate a study participant's
water consumption and exposure to either total THMs or individual
species of THMs. In only one study was an attempt made to estimate
exposures to other DBPs. In evaluating some potential risks, i.e.,
adverse outcomes of pregnancy, that may be associated with relatively
short term exposures to volatile by-products, it may be important to
consider the inhalation as well as the ingestion route of exposure
from drinking-water. In some studies, an effort was made to estimate
both by-product levels in drinking-water for etiologically relevant
time periods and cumulative exposures. Appropriate models and
sensitivity analysis such as Monte Carlo simulation can be used to
help estimate these exposures for relevant periods.

A major uncertainty surrounds the interpretation of the observed
associations, as exposures to a relatively few water contaminants have
been considered. With the current data, it is difficult to evaluate
how unmeasured DBPs or other water contaminants may have affected the
observed relative risk estimates.

More studies have considered bladder cancer than any other
cancer. The authors of the most recently reported results for bladder
cancer risks caution against a simple interpretation of the observed
associations. The epidemiological evidence for an increased relative
risk of bladder cancer is not consistent -- different risks are
reported for smokers and non-smokers, for men and women, and for high
and low water consumption. Risks may differ among various geographic
areas because the DBP mix may be different or because other water
contaminants are also present. More comprehensive water quality data
must be collected or simulated to improve exposure assessments for
epidemiological studies.

Note: After the printing of the document, Dr James Huff kindly
brought to the attention of the Secretariat that a study on the
carcinogenicity of sodium hypochlorite, and another on the
carcinogenicity of bromodichloromethane, chlorodibromomethane, bromoform,
chlorine, and chloramine, were not cited in the document. The authors'
abstracts of these studies are given below.

Soffritti M, Belpoggi F, Lenzi A, Maltoni C (1997) Results of long-term
carcinogenicity studies of chlorine in rats. Ann NY Acad Sci,
837: 189-208.

Four groups, each of 50 male and 50 female Sprague-Dawley rats, of the
colony used in the Cancer Research Center of Bentivoglio of the Ramazzini
Foundation, 12 weeks old at the start of the study, received drinking
water containing sodium hypochlorite, resulting in concentrations of active
chlorine of 750, 500, and 100 mg/l (treated groups), and tap water (active
chlorine < 0.2 mg/l) (control group), respectively, for 104 weeks. Among
the female rats of the treated groups, an increased incidence of lymphomas
and leukemias has been observed, although this is not clearly dose related.
Moreover, sporadic cases of some tumors, the occurrence of which is extremely
unusual among the untreated rats of the colony used (historical controls),
were detected in chlorine-exposed animals. The results of this study confirm
the results of the experiment of the United States National Toxicology
Program (1991), which showed an increase of leukemia among female Fischer
344/N rats following the administration of chlorine (in the form of sodium
hypochlorite and chloramine) in their drinking water. The data here presented
call for further research aimed at quantifying the oncogenic risks related to
the chlorination of drinking water, to be used as a basis for consequent
public health measures.

Dunnick JK, Melnick RL (1993) Assessment of the carcinogenic potential of
chlorinated water: experimental studies of chlorine, chloramine, and
trihalomethanes. J Natl Cancer Inst, 85: 817-822.

BACKGROUND: Water chlorination has been one of the major disease prevention
treatments of this century. While epidemiologic studies suggest an association
between cancer in humans and consumption of chlorination byproducts in
drinking water, these studies have not been adequate to draw definite
conclusions about the carcinogenic potential of the individual byproducts

PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to investigate the carcinogenic
potential of chlorinated or chloraminated drinking water and of four organic
trihalomethane byproducts of chlorination (chloroform, bromodichloromethane,
chlorodibromomethane, and bromoform) in rats and mice.

METHODS: Bromodichloromethane, chlorodibromomethane, bromoform, chlorine, or
chloramine was administered to both sexes of F344/N rats and (C57BL/6 x C3H)F1
mice (hereafter called B6C3F1 mice). Chloroform was given to both sexes of
Osborne-Mendel rats and B6C3F1 mice. Chlorine or chloramine was administered
daily in the drinking water for 2 years at doses ranging from 0.05 to 0.3
mmol/kg per day. The trihalomethanes were administered by gavage in corn oil
at doses ranging from 0.15 to 4.0 mmol/kg per day for 2 years, with the
exception of chloroform, which was given for 78 weeks.

RESULTS: The trihalomethanes were carcinogenic in the liver, kidney, and/or
intestine of rodents. There was equivocal evidence for carcinogenicity in
female rats that received chlorinated or chloraminated drinking water; this
evidence was based on a marginal increase in the incidence of mononuclear
cell leukemia. Rodents were generally exposed to lower doses of chlorine and
chloramine than to the trihalomethanes, but the doses in these studies were
the maximum that the animals would consume in the drinking water. The highest
doses used in the chlorine and chloramine studies were equivalent to a daily
gavage dose of bromodichloromethane that induced neoplasms of the large
intestine in rats. In contrast to the results with the trihalomethanes,
administration of chlorine or chloramine did not cause a clear carcinogenic
response in rats or mice after long-term exposure.

CONCLUSION: These results suggest that organic byproducts of chlorination are
the chemicals of greatest concern in assessment of the carcinogenic potential
of chlorinated drinking water."

When you're sure about something you have to be sure you read everything you know.

Peace,
MAIA


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #704745 - 06/27/02 08:42 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

BTW, you can try chlorine dioxide wich is much safer than bleach. You still can give your name to the tek if you want

A table from the previous link analizing desinfectant by-products formation, chlorine dioxide has none.


Peace,
MAIA


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Edited by MAIA (06/27/02 08:47 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #705236 - 06/27/02 11:58 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

interesting document,
but it says itself that the evidence is not really in yet.
plus, the amounts they fed those rats was many times greater than what we're using here.
also, we aren't using dirty water containing all those organic compounds like water treatment plants, we're using clean water to mix.
anyway, i've read alot on this subject,
and the bottom line as far as i can tell is that a bleach dip is one of the less risky things we do.
when the food and drug administration tells grocers to stop using bleach to sanitize produce,
and the water companies stop chlorinating my water,
and the bakers quit bleaching my flour,
then i might get worried.
and, after all, no one is forcing anyone to use bleach,
it's their choice.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: aural]
    #705258 - 06/27/02 12:05 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

actually, aural, it's pretty easy to see why things come to this.
a few people who think they know it all try to tell others what they should do.
but i'm not one to back down just because they say so,
which makes them mad,
and pretty soon they start making personal attacks,
and calling for my threads to be moved, locked, etc.
it's the primary reason i founded mycotopia,
so i'd have a place to freely express my opinions
without some opinionated jerks coming along and trying
to surpress it.
you guys seem to think that just because you tell me to
that i should just drop everything and shut up.
well, i never have done that,
and i don't intend to start now.
so you are wasting everyone's time.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #705404 - 06/27/02 12:56 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"we aren't using dirty water containing all those organic compounds like water treatment plants, we're using clean water to mix"

I know you not using dirty water to make the mix hippie, the problem is you dunk the mycellium in to water/bleach solution you're just doing it, the mycellium is the organic compound, the mix dilutes and reacts with it and THMs are produced at that time, mushrooms are made 90% of water and THMs can be there.
Well, i've just searched some info online about chlorine dioxide and i was reading something about many desinfecting plants just changed from bleach to to chlorine dioxide because its saffer, more effective (costly also) and has a better targeting on contams, don't know about avaiablility on the market though, i just accidentally closed the damn window, i'll try to find it soon.

Peace,
MAIA


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #705606 - 06/27/02 02:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Please post or otherwise give evidence of what you are claiming: I.E. which researchers stated that this technique was acceptable and recommended for psilocybian mushrooms.
-
I would not go so far as to say you invented dunking. You certainly popularized it in this context, especially in conjunction with PF style cakes. Staments has recommended for years the immersion of mycelium blocks in water to re-hydrate them (with a brick on top should it float) for later flushes if the mycelium appears to be dehydrated. Before you ever mentioned a dunking method several other people recommended placing cakes back in jars with water to re-hydrate them?
-
How are you so high and mighty that the advice of your peers is to be discarded?
-
I asked if you had comparative results between your bleach tek and a nearly pure water (not tap water, not spring water.. DI/RO/D water)?

And please, explain how I am in any way suppressing your ideas? I am encouraging further experimentation, however with advisory caution due to the chemicals involved. Please take a step back for a minute.
--
Keep in mind that to us, you are just some guy from the internet. What qualifications do you have to make these claims of utmost safety? Undergrad degree in ChemEng? Industrial chem.? Mycology? PhD? Many so qualified Dr.?s strongly recommend quick and complete disposal of contamination due to the possibility of infection or toxic by products? safe a thousand times matters little if once your wrong and the result is fatal.
-
sigh.. have a good day.


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InvisibleBillyGrass
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #706303 - 06/27/02 07:57 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

What are your intentions in starting this experimentation? I don't believe you if you tell me that it's not for the good feeling of starting your own tech or coming up with a great idea.(Btw, I don't think this is a good idea.) I feel sorry for the mushrooms.

Anyway:

"You can drive a car with your feet, but that don't make it a good mutha-fuckin' idea!" -Chris Rock-


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #706941 - 06/28/02 02:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

maia,
you know as well as i do that little things make big differences when it comes to chemistry.
and the difference between what's going on in a water treatment facility
and what's going on in a half pint jar bleaching a cake
is huge.
so it is hardly scientific or logical to argue/assume that because some THMs are produced in water treatment facilities that the same occurs in a different process.
that's the same sort of logic as when others were talking about the dioxins from the paper mills.
i'm not arguing that dioxins or trihalomethanes aren't toxic,
they certainly are.
but i am arguing that there's no evidence to show they are being produced in the process i'm using.
there's a huge difference between processing millions of gallons of contaminated water, which contains hundreds of assorted chemicals from run-off, sewers, septic systems, etc.
and dunking a cake 10 minutes in distilled water with a tiny amount of bleach.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #706948 - 06/28/02 03:05 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

dinomyc,
have you even bothered to actually read this thread ?
because if you had read it,
then you would know that i already cited the various universities and organisations and their evidence/suggestions on bleach.
for example, the botany dept. at UCLA recommends spraying edible [button] mushrooms with a bleach solution to fight off bacterial blotch.
now if they figure killing contams with bleach and then eating the shrooms is safe,
why should i be worried about what you guys say ?
also, i find it pretty amusing that you try to disallow my innovation in dunking cakes.
i know that shitake blocks were dunked,
but not cubensis.
and i'd like to see you post the urls of the posts where any one else dunked cakes before me.
you may not like it,
but give the devil his due.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: BillyGrass]
    #706954 - 06/28/02 03:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

my intentions were pretty damn simple-
to see if cubensis mycellia could tolerate bleach
at levels high enough to disinfect.
and i found out that it can, easily.



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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #707890 - 06/28/02 01:46 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"have you even bothered to actually read this thread ?
because if you had read it,
then you would know that i already cited the various universities and organisations and their evidence/suggestions on bleach.
for example, the botany dept. at UCLA recommends spraying edible [button] mushrooms with a bleach solution to fight off bacterial blotch."
>> Not quite the same as a long time period of total immersion..
"now if they figure killing contams with bleach and then eating the shrooms is safe,
why should i be worried about what you guys say ?"

Did you read what I said? I specifically said PSILOCYBIAN mushrooms. As you know, or should know, various fungi behave quite differently when exposed to different chemicals. Do you have any scientific evidence that your exact procedure produces none of the chemicals that others expressed concern about? Or perhaps other chems? You are making the same leap of logic that they are, only they are erring on the side of caution.
I asked if you were qualified to make this assertion of utmost safety, and you neglected to answer that. I personally will not drink chlorinated water due to the horrible taste and general unpleasant feeling it leaves me with. I know of many others who grew up drinking water from natural sources who express similar sentiment.

"also, i find it pretty amusing that you try to disallow my innovation in dunking cakes.
i know that shitake blocks were dunked,
but not cubensis."

I never said that your application of water immersion was not innovative or a potentially good idea! But you certainly did not INVENT dunking mycelium, or even dunking cakes! You even admit that others in the gourmet cultivation industry have been doing this for quite some time, so this is certainly not a point of contention.. You invented cake dunking like Marconi invented the radio.

I do not know when you started using your dunking technique, but other people have done various similar methods (the one I remember most distinctly was packing it in wet vermiculite over night.. essentially the same as dunking it, only with some vermiculite...
I think you completely missed the point of what most of the people here were saying:

BE CAREFUL.

?and do not make assertions of safety without rigorous demonstration of safety. A search on the internet does not consist of a thorough investigation, although an increasingly helpful first step it is.

enjoy your weekend everyone


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
    #709739 - 06/28/02 11:29 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

sorry hip - im just stirring you again. Good luck with your tek and stirring everyone at FF


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #710054 - 06/29/02 03:28 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

dinomyc,
c'mon dude, you should know better than to ask me to prove a negative.
i can no more 'prove' that a chemical isn't produced
than you can prove that you've never been sodomized.
all i can truthfully say is that there is no scientific evidence to show that my bleach dipping process is harmful.
if someone wants to claim that it is harmful,
then the burden of proof is on them to prove their assertion.
that's how it works in science and logic.
and i'm getting worn out going over the same points over and over while you just ignore the evidence.
of course there's no scientific studies done on spraying psilocybes with bleach, but chemistry is a universal constant, it doesn't work differently in different species.
if bleach is safe to spray on button mushrooms,
then lacking any evidence to the contrary,
it seems safe to assume that it's also safe on psilocybes.
personally, i find this whole discusion of 'safety' and risk to be rather ironic, coming from people who think nothing of consuming illegal hallucinogenic mushrooms.
how many chemicals are in psilocybes that have never been studied ?
hundreds, no doubt.
any one of which could cause cancer and have never been proven to be safe.
in fact, i'd bet that most doctors would agree that eating hallucinogenic mushrooms is very risky behavior.
yet you guys have no problems with that,
or that getting busted and going to prison is much more likely than developing cancer from bleach-dipped cakes.
or bad trips, panic attacks, etc. also much more likely.
everything we do entails risk, and it's all relative.
you want to be a vegan and drink r/o water,
fine, suit yourself.
personally, i drink chlorinated tapwater, smoke cigarettes, eat red meat and mc-donald's french fries, smoke dope, ride motorcycles, shoot guns, guzzle whiskey and beer, get in fights, and engage in all sorts of risky behavior that might well get me killed now or later.
and i use bleach to kill contams in my grow op.
i'm not forcing anyone to do anything,
i'm just posting the info and making sure that it gets a fair and rational defense against those who would seek to create fear without proof.
and, lol, i notice you declined to specify exactly who dunked cakes before me.
it's real easy to make assertions like that,
but far harder to prove it.
everyone knows i brought dunking cakes out at the same time as my invitro tek, and the proof of that staement is easily found in my posts 18 months ago, which is reprinted on pf's site and on usenet.
and when i started dunking, everyone yelled that i was crazy, it wouldn't work, i was a liar, etc.
i even was briefly banned because of all the fighting over those 2 teks.
if you look in your own shroomery faq you'll see that 'dunk tek' points to my site.
but you believe what you want to believe.



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #710131 - 06/29/02 05:04 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"you should know better than to ask me to prove a negative."

I did not ask you to prove a negitive, although logically this is possible.

"i can no more 'prove' that a chemical isn't produced
than you can prove that you've never been sodomized."

Its called chromotography, you can identify or at least isolate the chemicals present. How do you think they came up with the lists of what is present in psilocybian mushrooms to begin with? How do you think they test other chems for impureities?

"if someone wants to claim that it is harmful,
then the burden of proof is on them to prove their assertion.
that's how it works in science and logic."
a) with an issue of safety the "burden of proof" falls on the safe side of the road. Why do you think the FDA spends such a long time testing and analyzing the effects of drugs?
b) to what science and logic do you refer? numerology?


I agree there are many other chems, some of which are in psilocybian mushrooms, which are of potential concern, as well as a legal issue. That was nothign to do with what myself and the others who were responding to you were trying to caution you and those who use this tek about.
go to the beginning of advanced cultivation, look for rehydrate or rehydration. there were many in standard cult aswell, however I do not remember where (no frame of reference to remember by).
as I said before, you certainly popularized the procedure in this context, and clearly you are attempting to improve upon it..
have a good day.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #710181 - 06/29/02 06:10 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #710272 - 06/29/02 07:49 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

"personally, i drink chlorinated tapwater, smoke cigarettes, eat red meat and mc-donald's french fries, smoke dope, ride motorcycles, shoot guns, guzzle whiskey and beer, get in fights, and engage in all sorts of risky behavior that might well get me killed now or later."

So basically your saying you just like the rest of us


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #710450 - 06/29/02 09:24 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

> a few people who think they know it all try to tell others what they should do

isn't this like the pot callin' the kettle black?

camel


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: camel]
    #710668 - 06/29/02 11:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
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Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Alien]
    #710770 - 06/29/02 11:48 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

you tell it like it is, alien.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Alien]
    #710931 - 06/29/02 12:59 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

LMAO

it's funny cause this is the only handle i have ever used at the shroomery, why don'tcha check into yer ip logs before ya go making wild accusations.

and i "ripped off your cabinet idea"?! im sorry, but... wtf are you talking about (actually, i care very little about what you're talking about but this is a pretty funny "accusation" to say the least )?

listen, im not saying you're lying, but your delusions that you believe to be true, are actually false (and laughable at best )

cheers
camel


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Edited by camel (06/29/02 01:02 PM)


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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ]
    #713508 - 06/30/02 05:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

To prove a negative one assumes the contrapositive of the negative, disproves that, and thereby proves the negative, or by direct proof, which is sometimes more difficult.
Example:
Prove that the rational numbers between zero and one are countably infinite (prove that one cannot count all rational numbers between zero and one in finite time, a negative, but that a simple mapping is possible from natural numbers, which are considered to exist in a countable although infinite form):
We take the form a/b to represent these numbers, as all rational numbers have a fractional representation from the set of natural numbers. We take a from zero to infinity by steps of one, and b from one to infinity in steps of one, however each step of a takes place after the last step of b to infinity (a countably infinite endpoint), and with b>a:
0/b where b is any natural number excluding 0, (1/1 included if it is the closed interval [0,1]) 1/2, 1/3, 1/4?. 1/infinity, 2/3, 2/4, 2/5 ?. 2/infinity? etc. all numbers between zero and one will be represented by this infinite set As you probably notice there is some overlap, however this is irrelevant as the set is still infinite and countable, as it was mapped directly from the set of natural numbers.
Or, for proof of infinite, simply assume finite dimensions (contrapositive). If the set were of finite dimensions then any subset will be of finite dimensions, so we need only prove that a subset is infinite. Take all numbers 1/a, where a is a natural number. This is a subset of the set with which we are concerned, and, as natural numbers are infinite, that subset is infinite, and therefore the whole set is infinite, and therefore you cannot count in finite time all rational numbers between one and zero.
There, proof that you cannot count all rational numbers between zero and one in finite time, but that they are considered mathematically countable, a proof of a negative.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #715231 - 07/01/02 09:36 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

lol
math jargon.
let me see anyone count to infinity in the real world.
because that's what we're talking about-
the real world,
where concepts like the square root of 2 and pi and infinity don't mean the same thing as in mathematics.



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #715535 - 07/01/02 12:54 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

:P
math and the real world are one and the same
and the aspect of the proof in question was that you could not count those numbers in finite time, IE that noone could ever actually do it (with the unlikely exception of infinite life..)..

I was merely useing this as a demonstration that it is possible to prove a negitive.. there are many other examples..


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #715800 - 07/01/02 03:31 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

no,
math and the real world aren't the same.
for example,
The Pythagorean Theorem asserts that for a right triangle, the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides: a2 + b2 = c2 .
let's assume we build, in the real world, a wooden triangle.
now, if the two short sides have a length of 1 foot,
then that means that the hypotenuse = the square root of 2.
but the square root of 2 is an irrational number.
unlike the real world board, which has a definite finite length we can quite obviously see,
the square root of 2 never ends, it just goes on forever.
thus we can easily see the break-down of mathematic theory in real world applications.



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #715817 - 07/01/02 03:42 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #715824 - 07/01/02 03:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #715835 - 07/01/02 03:50 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #716203 - 07/01/02 05:55 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The length of anything you would try to measure is limited by your tools with which to measure it. It is currently impossible to measure any length to the accuracy necessary to disprove, as you claim, the Pythagorean Theorem. Incidentally the relationship has been verified to the limits of the measuring tools available at the time tests were conducted for millennia. Math is not some made up discipline which is close to the real world, but not quite related. It is quite the other way around, math is the language with which we describe and explore the relationships within the world around us.

The breakdown you are describing does not exist! There is no difference between definite and irrational.

I really must ask: what math you have familiarized yourself with? I can understand that given an insufficient exposure, one might think that math is essentially irrelevant or at least minimally relevant.

Mr_Mushrooms:
I do not feel like going through the motions for six other proofs, inside or outside of mathematics. I will give a few short summaries for you to look over or prove for yourself:

(real world problem, one which caused much discussion less than a century ago) Is it possible to create an algorithm (program) which can tell you the answer to this simple question: will algorithm/program X terminate or will it run indefinitely? Alan Touring gave a short and simple proof of this, a proof of a negative (that it is not possible, and nothing to do with math here).

Prove that a ladder falling will move away from the wall unless held there by some physical means (latter on a wall / ladder | wall : /| falling down to _|) will move away from the wall at some point near final position.

Prove that it is not exceptionally difficult to explode the bottom of a nearly full glass beer bottle (full to the standard level, just below full by about a cm or three) simply by slapping the open top (not enough force to cause pain etc.. unless your doing it wrong). This is quite easy to demonstrate, although it appears impossible.. try sometime.. this is a rather lax proof, however it is easily proven with math (and a knowledge of physics).
---
I do not see the link to any existential question, however I will address it to the extent that I have time to cover. Since modern philosophy has barely progressed since the inception of the discipline, and has generally separated itself from its roots, this question is one which is somewhat ?weighted?. You can not prove the existence OR non existance of any entity, even yourself. The closest anyone has generally come is Cogito Ergo Sum, of Descartes. Quite simply I exist because I believe so. Unfortunately by extension so do the politicians, corrupt lawyers (there are honest ones, surprisingly), bigoted racists, general bastards, inept ignoramuses, and the incredible surplus population which is consuming our planet, to themselves at least. Unfortunately I think they do exist, and therefore they do. I can neither consciously think them out of nor into existence, and so they must be real. A very weak and logically flawed argument, however it has stood the test of time.. It is a wonderful question to pose to yourself, the existence of oneself.. its rather depressing when you get down to it, however at the same time it can be enlightening to truly grasp, even for only a brief instant..

The demonstration of safety (as close to a proof as you can come not knowing everything going on in a particular biological situation, which we humans do not) I am looking for is some thorough analysis of the carpophores from dunked cakes.. if nothing new is present compared to non dunked, then it would be a concern. Or, if a mycologist gave demonstration of why the concern is unwarranted, to the contrary of some of the evidence given by MAIA et al.

Enjoy your day



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #717275 - 07/02/02 06:14 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ]
    #717863 - 07/02/02 12:34 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

correct, plato.
as for the safety of bleach-dipped shrooms,
like i said before- the FDA says it ok,
Stamets says it's ok, and that's good enough for me.
hell, i'm not even convinced that non-dipped shrooms are 'safe', so how can i prove dipped ones are ?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #717932 - 07/02/02 01:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I assume you mean Staments comments in GGMM about bleach:
The bleach bath method he describes is for uncolonized straw, and he specifically states that "cultivators should be careful where the toxic leachate is drained."

where did the FDA state that bleach is safe for use such as this? I just spent some time looking through their docs on bleach, and every one I read either used bleach only as a sanitizer or specificially warned against consumption or food which has come in contact with solutions containing bleach, even exceptionally low concentrations (obviously greater than that in tap water)....


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #719413 - 07/03/02 03:22 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

yeah, but there aren't any toxins left behind in the starw, yes ?
which is immediately inoculated.
as for the fda,
The U.S. FDA regulation 21 CFR 173.315 allows for fruits and vegetables to be washed in water containing up to 0.2 percent sodium hypochlorite.
cf. http://www.agnr.umd.edu/MCE/Publications/Publication.cfm?ID=258


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #721109 - 07/03/02 08:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You guys are awesome, even though much of the last half of the thread had nothing to do with bleach dunking, you gave a stoned guy enough reading material to keep him occupied all night. This is a thread that shows many of the soap opera characteristics, that I like... Seriously, I just got some Sphongle, and it rules... I, like many other math majors, am mathematically trying to disprove God, but since I just have a math minor I think I'd rather just read your guys writing because you are all so interesting.

Peace


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #730507 - 07/08/02 05:16 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

a milk-dunk combined with bleach dip report.
=========================================

ZestyMycelium
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Hippie3 Dunktek Question...
07/07/02 02:08 PM Edit Reply



Hey everyone..
I have a single cake in a mini - terrarium (a little glass house about 16" tall, 10" in diameter, with a small dish of perlite for humidification). This is this cake's 5th flush using the dunk tek.
initially, after the 4th flush (achieved using the drinking straw method), I dunked the cake for 12 hours in evaporated milk (in the fridge, of course). I then put it back in the terrarium, only to notice a really rank ass smell a few days later(spoiled milk, of course). Rather than throw it out, I then bleached dunked the cake in 100:1:2 (water,bleach,vinegar) solution for another 12 hours, and then in sterilized water for 12 hours after that. I really didnt think the cake would pull through, but now there are 4 pins (and a whole crap load of tiny aborts, maybe 25 or so) growing from the top of the cake! The 4 pins look like they're definately going to make it through to maturity. They are EQ strain, have dark brown caps and brown streaks on the stems (assuming this is normal, after some searchin on this board)
My question is, do you think these shrooms are safe enough to eat? There is NO sign of the spoiled milk smell at all, as after I re-dunked the cake I disinfected the terrarium and used a fresh dish with new perlite. Im pretty amazed, this cake is in its 5th flush! I wonder how long it will keep going??

Thanks
Zesty

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Mycelium
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Re: Hippie3 Dunktek Question... [re: ZestyMycelium]
07/07/02 02:28 PM Edit Reply



I'll be very surprised if you get anymore after this one. Hell, I'll be surprised if those few pins even make it to maturity! But, 5 flushes thats pretty damn good. Good luck!

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Re: Hippie3 Dunktek Question... [re: ZestyMycelium]
07/07/02 02:31 PM Edit Reply



They should be safe to eat.

Plato

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Re: Hippie3 Dunktek Question... [re: Mr_Mushrooms]
07/07/02 04:59 PM Edit Reply



Thanks for the replies! Yeah, Im pretty amazed myself - I didnt think it was ever going to fruit again! The 4 shrooms are definately going to make it, they're nearly twice the size they were this morning! After I pick them, Im going to clean off all the abhorts and try another dunk, this time with evap. milk and dextrose.

Thanks again
Zesty

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #744671 - 07/14/02 04:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
update.
my recent experiments have brought me to the conclusion that the inclusion of vinegar in the formula, at least at the strength posted before, is causing some molds, esp. green [trich] to actually grow faster than before.
lol
but once i removed the vinegar from the solution,
once again i see it stopping the mold dead in it's track.
i think it has to do with the solution ph, the vinegar brings the ph into the range favored by trich,
while straight bleach is very basic/alkaline,
which trich hates.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1018032 - 11/03/02 11:24 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Intresting thread, well atleast half of it, the other half was a big load of fineprint namecalling  :grin:
Might try the tech if i run into trouble with contaminated cakes. Im using bleach all over the place anyway.


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Offlinehsalf
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: melic]
    #1019562 - 11/04/02 12:01 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, but Jay & Silent Bob already gave us the just of whats to come when they walked onto the set of 'Good Will Hunting 2' :mad:
Anyway, Hippie, why not ask someone to analyze a tissue sample of an isolate w/ & w/o using the dunk. Then post the results. I'm sure you'd be able to help put a final end to the skepticism that way. 'Course you seem to be satisfied already.
Personally I think I'd wait for the results. Don't like cancer. or extra chems in my Goddess flesh.
Well, time for a cigarette(doesn't negate previous statement :blush:)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: hsalf]
    #1019567 - 11/04/02 12:03 AM (18 years, 6 months ago)

Did you see when the last post was before melic's post? 07/14/02 02:34 AM
This thread is over 3 months old. Please read the date before you post a reply.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: daussaulit]
    #1058862 - 11/16/02 10:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I have personally been using bleach for all my dunks and in my misting water for well over 6 months,, and have eaten many many mushrooms with no ill affect,,and no contams....long term usage is safe due to the fact the bleach evaporates and turns into salts.. ive also been working in the food industry and use bleach alot ..and in more places you can imagine..nobody gets sick ....bleach saved my battle with contams many times over


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: cowshitblues]
    #1058922 - 11/16/02 10:45 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

before those newbies posted a few weeks ago, the thread hasn't gotten replies in over 4 months. This thread is dead. Look at the date before posting ar reply.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: daussaulit]
    #1059611 - 11/17/02 05:52 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Its a live

lol got to love us newbes.  :grin: 


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: daussaulit]
    #1065471 - 11/19/02 08:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

lol
it ain't dead as long as interested folks want to post.
we've been getting tons of good results/reports over at mycotopia from people using the 200:1 water:bleach solution in all aspects of their grow efforts to surpress contams before they even get a chance to start.
here's a recent pic posted of a cake fruiting after a bleach dip.
the cake was birthed prematurely, before colonization was quite finished but the bleach dip helped it finish fine.

thread cited

here's another success story-
In reply to:

By Visions (Visions) on Friday, November 15, 2002 - 05:42 pm: Edit


I resently cased some grains with unpasturized dehydrated manure...I had some grain jars that started producing lots of shrooms in the jars before I could use them as spawn...So I dumped them into an aluminum pan with small holes poked on the bottom...then cased...Put 1/4tsp bleach in a gal jug...used that to thoughly soak the manure and grains...I thought I would have a problem with the shrooms rotting under the casing...had hundreds of small shrooms...I didn't cover it...was left out in the open right next to my computer...I would sometimes water it right out of my drinking glass...I would poke at it with my bare hands to see how it was doing...Smelled it...Never got a contam!...Never smelled funny!...If I would have cased it before all the shrooms started growing in the jar the results would have been greater...

This is what a 3qt jars produced so far in one pan...40grams cracker dry





thread cited


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Offlinejoeshitragpicker
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1066037 - 11/19/02 01:12 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

hip u da man... off topic....
How many dry g's per cake does one usually expect from neglect? If one has the capability to case & saran wrap it, should one just go with that? Will the yields be substantially better?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: joeshitragpicker]
    #1664691 - 06/26/03 04:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Good Post and experiment Hippy!
I used H202 sprayed on the casings when I was growing before but always had a bleach solution around for cleaning everything.
So the room was washed down with bleach, the tables and the area around the casings.
My point is the following.
The bleach was in the atmosphere and in the area of growing.
Evaporating all the time.
I did not die and am not afraid thatI will die soon.

As for the question how much bleach the mushrooms would asorb in the dunking process ( I just used tap water but thats me)
Have you ever noticed that a cake floats!!!!!
Wow what a concept, so the 1:550 consitration would result in micrograms of any bleach that "theoretically" would be asorbed into the mycelia structure and resulting mushroom.
Now if you were to spray them with a diluted bleach solution the whole growth sequence then and only then would we maybe be able to see any reay concentrations of the bleach in the mushrooms.

Conclusions:
Bleach has a topical effect in killing the green bad guys.

:-)
I wish I had thought of that.

Bleach is great for use in all phases of any mushroom operation.
To the fools that keep worrying about minute ( ug's) of bleach.
Please stop this verbal nonesence.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Ivan]
    #1664802 - 06/26/03 04:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

wow, this is old. lol.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Raadt]
    #1666744 - 06/27/03 08:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

good information never goes out of date.
we're still getting good reports from many who regularly use the 200:1 bleach mist/dunk to keep contams at bay.
lots of folks using it on their bulk straw too, to pasturize.



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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1667313 - 06/27/03 04:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, it's just funny when posts 8-9 months old get dug up.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Raadt]
    #1668038 - 06/27/03 10:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

And so modest too Hippie...
Maybe next time i wont bother sterilising my substrate - ill just use sulphuric acid to burn away the contams...


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1668842 - 06/28/03 08:02 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

lol
i'd recommend you try that as a enema.
might improve your disposition.
what is your problem anyway ?
sour grapes ? penis envy ?
you seem to follow me and post on my threads
like some schoolgirl with a crush,
trying to get my attention any way you can.
give it a rest, you bore me.
plenty of folks are using bleach and if you don't,
that's fine too.
but get out of the way and stop the harrassment.



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1668850 - 06/28/03 08:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

hippie, why so bitter? He?s Australian, don?t mind him  :wink: 


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Anno]
    #1668870 - 06/28/03 08:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Stop it hippie - your turning me on :smile:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1669085 - 06/28/03 11:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

sorry, anno.
shouldn't let him blow my cool.
yeah, that's it.
just gets old after
a few years of it.
i'll try to chill.
peace


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #1673475 - 06/30/03 09:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I guess i'm a goner.I've been using bleach in my substrates for 20 years.Funny thing...never felt better.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: shroomophile]
    #1673486 - 06/30/03 09:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

did someone used it on bulk substract and casing ????????
what where the result if so
and hippie3, do you think its a sound idea, sounds like it could very well work to me????


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: cd666cd]
    #1674432 - 06/30/03 06:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

damn right it can work,
and it does.
a good example of bleach used in bulk substrate/casings
is visions' laundry baskets tek found at mycotopia,
its' also been cross-posted here before, by me.
visions' used my bleach tek both to pasturize his straw
and also in his mist bottle.
great results, too.
another mycotopiate, fathergoose, has adapted the chronic tek for
using bleach to keep everything shiny clean in the quart jar terrariums.
we've got many success stories archived under bleach dipping over at mycotopia, many with pix so come browse anytime and check it out further in depth.



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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1674446 - 06/30/03 06:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

here's a pic of visions' work to whet your appetite.

and a url to get you started.
visions' tek


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1679226 - 07/02/03 06:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well there you go - they are impressive pics. Kick arse isolate.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1704781 - 07/11/03 03:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

hey hippie whats the ratio you even start to measure for a 21quart all american pressure cooker, when tryin that 100:1 straw pasteurizing.?

Also, u think i could just pasteurize my poo in the same 21puart Pc at the same time, im just starting some hay/poo work. anyideas would help. thanks?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: pussycontrol]
    #1780964 - 08/05/03 10:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

for straw pasturization,
it works out to roughly 1.5 tablespoons of bleach per gallon of water used.
i prefer to do the straw and dung apart then mix.


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OfflineRavinoff
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1781175 - 08/05/03 11:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hey I was wondering if you can use this method for a partially colonized cake?

Chop off the contams with a hot knife then bleach dunk in a 200:1 ratio for 5 minutes and put back in jars to finish colonization?

Or should I wait for the entire thing to colonize and pray the contams dont spread?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Ravinoff]
    #1781685 - 08/05/03 02:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

tough call.
has to be case-by-case,
some can be saved, others can't.
but it's proly best to let it go until birthday,
unless the contam is still growing or the mycellia has stalled out.
then you can try what you suggested.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #1862206 - 08/29/03 10:59 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

from a thread at mycotopia entitled "Bleach versus The Blob"

Quote:

By Randolph Carter (Randy_Carter) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:17 am:

and the Bleach wins it by a landslide.
A friend told me the following..

"I'd like to thank Hippie for his bleach tech. Upon birthing 11 apparently normal and healthy white PF cakes it was noticed within three days the signs of what appeared at the time to be pinning(these cakes were dunked in their jars 16 hours in distilled water as I normally do). These "pins" rapidly formed into mutant fungal Blobs..rapidly covering the surface area of the cakes. No discernable caps or stems just semi-hard slight off white encrustations that vaguely resemble sclerotia combining with each other to form a kind of matting affect. There was noted a seeping through "pores" in these blobs of clear sometimes slightly yellow liquid. There was also noted a foul bacterial odor coming from the fruiting chamber within about 4-5 days of birth. Being not inexperienced I knew this to be the same bacterial contam I had about 6 months ago(which destroyed the entire crop that time around). It seems to co-exist with the mycelium and only shows it's face after birth. It does not harm the mycelium much apparently, but infected cakes RARELY if EVER put out any normal fruits...the Blobs just take over..scrap them off they grow back..leave them they get bigger and nastier. Both the last time and this time I believe the contam was introduced through the innoculation solution itself(contaminated syringe).
I was VERY close to tossing them as soon as I realized what had/was happening...they were not after all the only thing I had going at the time. However in the back of my mind the Bleach tech came knocking. I thought what the hell..nothing really to lose in trying. I had never tried it before..never really had a need except that time 6 months ago. So..at 5 days after birth I mixed up some 200-1 part bleach water. I proceeded to remove as many of the "Blobs" as possible(harder than it sounds they are embedded in and are apart of the mycelium network and weaken it slightly under them making chunks of mycelium pull away with them if you aren't carefull) and gave them a 24 hour bleach dunk. I did not even give them a wash with normal water before I placed them back in the chamber. They smelled quite strongly of bleach. Nothing happened for about 2 days..they looked quite pitifull actually...then to my pleasant suprise they began fluffing back up.The bleach smell was gone by day 3 leaving a normal shroomy smell. By the 4th day there were new NORMAL pins forming. By day 6-7 I had fully normal baby mushrooms..and this next bit suprised me even more. I noticed a few of the "blobs" I had missed on the cakes were morphing (back)into NORMAL pins/baby mushrooms. A few of these have formed mutant mushrooms shaped strange, but otherwise totally healthy looking. The new pins are forming totally normal mushrooms. The Blob has not reappeared on any of the cakes nor has the foul bacterial smell. This seems to be THE way to rid oneself of this particular contam without sacrificing a crop.
I have seen others complain about this contam from time to time with little or no response on how to deal with it(besides tossing them)..well there it is.. Bleach Dunk. Thanks for your experimentation Hippie.
P.S. Even though Bleach Dunk has healed these cakes...I do not know about eating the fruits from them. The cakes were after all contaminated with an unknown bacteria that put off a FOUL odor. The bacteria seem dead but that doesn't mean they haven't possibly left some toxins in the mix. I have myself not eaten any of them..don't know if I will even. Proceed with caution





btw, a slight clarifaction to set the record straight and give credit which is long over due.
in regards to my dunk tek, a shroomerite called 'opi' [aka TheJafF] was the fellow who initially suggested that i toss my cakes in a 5 gallon bucket to soak. while i did not follow his somewhat distainful advice [i got the impression he didn't much care for cakes], he does deserve some credit for his suggestion as it directly led to the dunk tek which so many use today.


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InvisibleFick_Duck
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2032446 - 10/22/03 02:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I was gonna link this to the thread asking if tap water was bad to use, but ive been wondering lately about this thread and what happened to this tek, as I havent heard of it for years.

So Im bumpin it, cause theres tons of great info in this thread.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Fick_Duck]
    #2033553 - 10/22/03 08:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Has anybody tried to add bleach to a liquid inoculation solution ( honey tek ? ) in order to keep contamination off ?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ragadinks]
    #2033615 - 10/22/03 08:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Not with mushroom spores but that technique is used in the purification of certain pathogenic oocysts (which are a lot like spores) so I don't see why it's not possible....

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
    #2035053 - 10/23/03 04:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmm, would be interesting. Till now I have only seen them using peroxide.


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Offlineetard
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ragadinks]
    #2035517 - 10/23/03 10:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

WAit, does anyone think that this would at all help with trich or cobweb?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: etard]
    #2035861 - 10/23/03 01:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

  WAit, does anyone think that this would at all help with trich or cobweb?
Sorry, for my ignorance, but what is "trich" and what is "cobweb" ?
Have to admit I am a newbie  :crazy:

ragadinks 


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OfflineElemicin
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very bad. idea... [Re: ragadinks]
    #2035894 - 10/23/03 01:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

DO NOT USE BLEACH
I can't believe you people are considering using it.
What makes u think its not going to kill the mycelia?
chlorine is not very friendly when it comes to organic matter.

Neither is it going to be safe for you to consume the mushrooms.
shit, even a sodium bromide solution or a potassium iodide solution will be safer.....


stick with H2O2, if u must get a more concentrated solution.

if u want a more concentrated solution of h2o2 freeze your 3% bottle, you will have h2o2 on the top in a more concentrated percentage, this could be diluted a bit.

The chloride is not going to go away, its going to stay in the mushroom matter and stay in your shrooms, it may chlorinate some of it, but it will stay.

H2O2 on the other hand does not have any byproducts which stay, you will get oxidized product, but it will be by oxygen and not by chloride, as for by products you all know O2 and H2O

Please do not use this method, the amount of chlorine present may be small but oxidizing agents are not good for the organic body.





Edited by Elemicin (10/23/03 01:25 PM)


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2035935 - 10/23/03 01:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Elemicin said:
Neither is it going to be safe for you to consume the mushrooms.
This is the dumbest idea i've ever heard.

Whats next ? Sodium Bromide...oh oooh how about sodium floride, that will bleach your mushrooms good and get rid of contaminents.





Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were talking about a very dilute solution of bleach in with the spores. That would not be nearly enough to possibly hurt someone; it won't be nearly as much as misting with bleachwater, such as people *already do.* Bleach is not toxic in really low concentrations like that.

I also don't think it's a bad idea -- we sell purified oocysts, for one thing, in a partial bleach solution (I think like 2 or 3% from the bottle, but I can check tomorrow if you want) and none of our customers seem to mind. Yeah -- there's H2O2, and it works, but that doesn't mean everything else doesn't.

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OfflineElemicin
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: micro]
    #2037999 - 10/23/03 11:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I personally see no reason in the use of a chlorinated oxidizer when more people friendly and environment friendly alternatives exist.

As for bleaches toxidity in those concentration, yes they are minimal,
what advantages does sodium hypochlorite have over other friendlier oxidants?

"there's H2O2, and it works, but that doesn't mean everything else doesn't."

Yes NaBr NaF, NaI would also work as oxidizing agent. I am not denying the fact that these other salts make good agents to kill microorganisms.

Minute I2 and Br2 solutions can also be used and they are also "non toxic" at lower levels.


as for toxidity.....

PRODUCT TOXICITY

Household Bleach 4 ppm
Hydrogen Peroxide (3%) 1675 ppm





Edited by Elemicin (10/23/03 11:21 PM)


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Offlineetard
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: micro]
    #2038380 - 10/24/03 12:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

trich is the green stuff, trichoderma; and cobweb is wispy and looks like a spiderweb.


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: etard]
    #2038977 - 10/24/03 04:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks ...


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2039318 - 10/24/03 01:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Elemicin said:
I personally see no reason in the use of a chlorinated oxidizer when more people friendly and environment friendly alternatives exist.




Elemicin -- bleach used to break down into sodium chlorate (a weed killer) because of metallic impurities in it, but because of better processing techniques it now *only breaks down into sodium chloride." What's not environmentally friendly?

Quote:

as for toxidity.....

PRODUCT TOXICITY

Household Bleach 4 ppm
Hydrogen Peroxide (3%) 1675 ppm




What are you talking about? The LD50 (in rats) for PURE sodium hypochlorite FROM INGESTION is 8.9 g/Kg in rats (figure a person at 75 kilos or so,) according to the MSDS. This would be a hell of a lot more than 4 ppm in a 3% concentration. Do you have references for this?

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OfflineElemicin
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: micro]
    #2041971 - 10/25/03 03:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

toxicidity != LD50

I see though that the NaClO(-) reaction, does indeed give u chloride salt.

I stand corrected.
:smile:
Interesting though
take a look at this....

NaOCl  + H20 + hydrocarbon ---> oxidized hydrocarbon + H2O + NaCL
NaCl + H2O + NaOCl <----> NaOH + Cl2(g) equilibrium reaction.

(keep in mind...)
NaOCl + H2O  &#8596; HOCl + Na+ + OH
(occurs as well)

we do have other by products though :smile:
Cl2 will chlorinate the organic matter, the HOCl will strip a hydrogen  and then you will have a chlorinated product.










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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2042073 - 10/25/03 04:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)



At what side will the reaction be at room temperature ?


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: ragadinks]
    #2043087 - 10/26/03 12:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

has anyone ever tried using oxygen bleach (sodium percarbonate)?


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Hanky]
    #2125739 - 11/20/03 08:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

elemicin knows not of which he speaks.
this is a proven, highly effective tek
and if anyone wants more details come
visit our archives at mycotopia where we
have an entire section devoted to bleach use.


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Hippie3]
    #2125741 - 11/20/03 08:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What makes u think its not going to kill the mycelia?
well, because we tested it.
did you think we just made this all up ?


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OfflineElemicin
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I'm sure it works well.... [Re: Hippie3]
    #2127222 - 11/21/03 01:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure it works well, I don't deny the oxidizing power of the chemical, I do know my chemistry, and I do know chlorine radicals are formed in the oxidation process.  Will be enough chlorine to affect the growth of the overall mushrooms can cause you to become ill??

probably not, but people should be informed of what is occuring. You will have minor chlorinated some (very minor due to concentration) chlorinated product.

Btw hippie, it is going to kill some of the mycelia.... oxidation is oxidiation..just like H2O2 kills mycelia :wink: and contaminants.... or even ozonated water.


I do retract my statement of NOT using it, when first reading the thread i was underimpression that a MUCH larger amount of bleach was going to be used.






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Re: I'm sure it works well.... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2127249 - 11/21/03 01:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The tek worked for my friend, Don Quixote.

He was amazed at how quickly the odor changed from bleach to mycelia.


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Re: I'm sure it works well.... [Re: Rose]
    #2127960 - 11/21/03 07:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

exactly.
the bleach quickly breaks down into salt and water,
the low concentration minimizes any damage to the mycellia,
and the product is perfectly edible and safe.


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2128253 - 11/21/03 09:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Elemicin said:
NaOCl + H20 + hydrocarbon ---> oxidized hydrocarbon + H2O + NaCL
NaCl + H2O + NaOCl <----> NaOH + Cl2(g) equilibrium reaction.





This shouldn't happen at really low concentrations because a halonium ion intermediate shouldn't be able to form when another more simple reaction that's more exergonic can take place, with a lower activation energy.

It will oxidise things, but hydrocarbons???? Except maybe alkynes, since they're acidic....

So I would think....

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Edited by micro (11/21/03 09:44 PM)


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OfflineElemicin
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: micro]
    #2130699 - 11/23/03 05:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

it will oxidize, alkane, alkenes and alkynes using chlorination.
so it the nature of radicals :smile:



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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2158145 - 12/04/03 02:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well , could I still go to the swimming pool ,coz i'm afraid to die just drinking a few water !!!

:smirk: 


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OfflineElemicin
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: YesItsMe]
    #2167328 - 12/07/03 09:06 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

lol,

add more chlorine in your pool and then try swimming :smile:

I'm just saying it does occur some bi product in very small quantities....


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Elemicin]
    #2174225 - 12/13/03 06:31 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Your viewpoit is a bit extremist through throughout the thread.  For all purposes considered, its completely safe and harmless and effective.

God, I argued int his thread ages ago with someone about it. ugh.

Also, another thing to keep in mind, h2o2 doesnt seem to always work on everything.  I had some NASTY black mold h2o2 refused to kill, touch, make love to, wahtever.  Bleach however, knocked it on its ass. :smile:


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Re: very bad. idea... [Re: Barbi]
    #2197262 - 12/23/03 08:16 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

yep,
my bleach experiments are now old news
and proven effective by many.
it's past time to accept that fact.


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Offlinemycoguy
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2728287 - 05/25/04 05:14 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

i started seeing some fluffy stuff on a casing today, and didn't want to risk the possibility of it being a contam, so i heavily misted over the casings with 50/50 bleach/water. The myc has turned a faint blue, as well as some of the pins that were already starting.

I'm worried that I might've killed the pins and or surface myc. I'll wait and see what happens. and post back with results in a few days.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycoguy]
    #2728302 - 05/25/04 05:18 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

"so i heavily misted over the casings with 50/50 bleach/water."
that was a mistake.
if you read the thread
you'll see we used bleach diluted 200 to 1 in water,
not 50/50.


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Offlinemycoguy
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2729862 - 05/25/04 11:08 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

YES I KNOW...i did this BEFORE i had came across this thread. Like I said, I'll let you all know how it turns out.


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Offlinemycoguy
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycoguy]
    #2735319 - 05/27/04 04:21 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

as it turned out, I ended up with alot of mutants from the first casing. I'll post a pic later of the most retarded little child that grew out. It was growing with the stem split wide open, lengthwise. It was also attached at the cap to another shroom. Growing from the same cluster was a 3rd shroom that decided to split its stem into many pieces, and then grow upside down.

I have a strong feeling it was the bleach.

BUT

This casing began with heavy overlay, and was scratched on the surface. Has anyone else experience mutants from scratched casings?


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OfflineRiceCake
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2740965 - 05/28/04 11:34 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

So this is safe because we all drink chlorinated water, eh?

"We are quite convinced, based on this study, that there is an association between cancer and chlorinated water." Medical College Of Wisconsin research team.

According to the U.S. Council Of Environmental Quality, ?Cancer risk among people drinking chlorinated water is 93% higher than among those whose water does not contain chlorine.?

Link: http://www.healthynewage.com/chlorine-cancer.htm

I found this by googling for chlorine cancer.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: RiceCake]
    #2743727 - 05/29/04 09:33 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

big deal.
a million things cause cancer,
from sunlight to refined sugar
to drinking water to the freakin' air itself.
what's the risk ?
1 in 350,000 to get a cancer 30 years from now ?
people,
your risk of getting busted is higher,
over 2 million in prison,
but you still grow eh ?


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OfflineRuNE
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2743922 - 05/29/04 12:02 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)


:lol::thumbup:



Nice tek btw. 
You could always use 'green' bleach too. (it just uses hydrogen peroxide in higher concentrations.)  Maybe this is a cheaper source for strenghty peroxide? 




:sun:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: RiceCake]
    #2744241 - 05/29/04 02:04 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RiceCake said:
According to the U.S. Council Of Environmental Quality, &#8220;Cancer risk among people drinking chlorinated water is 93% higher than among those whose water does not contain chlorine.&#8221;






So stop to go to swimming pool , high risk of skin cancer !


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2744994 - 05/29/04 08:25 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I just sat and read this entire thread. Very Cool. I would like to say that I have been dunking cakes in 100 to 1 bleach for 3 years with nothing but sucess. I just thought one day about green mold pissing me off and fried the bastards in bleach. Old news for me but this thread did answer alot of questions running thru the back of my head. O yeah after all the shrooms I have consumed I am fine. Thanks Hip for doing all the reasearch I should have. I guess some of you are very talented at getting to the facts. Where I was just using old school thinking. Like mom said kill germs and funky things with Bleach.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #2745062 - 05/29/04 09:23 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

so you invented both
dunking and bleach dipping
years before me?
what the fuck am i even doing then ?
lol
p.s. i don't think i believe ya
but who knows ?
stranger things are true.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2745906 - 05/30/04 08:03 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hippie3 said:
big deal.
... 1 in 350,000 to get a cancer 30 years from now ?
people,
your risk of getting busted is higher,
over 2 million in prison,
but you still grow eh ?



No risk of getting busted here - I live in the UK. Growing and consuming hallucenogenic shrooms is legal so long as you don't dry them. So for me, getting cancer, even at 350,000 to one, is a higher risk. :wink:

Still, the risk of being killed on the roads is probably higher, and I still drive.

And seriously, thanks for all the work you've put in on this. :thumbup:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2746650 - 05/30/04 02:18 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

May I add my 2c by stating that this thread is becoming rediculously silly? (It recently graduated from the status of being really silly.)

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2747421 - 05/30/04 06:59 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I wasn't stealing your glory man! Just telling you it is a good idea. But you didn't invent shit dude. I am a master gardner by trade and we use bleach for all sorts of killing. Very old news.and as far as dunking it doesn't take a rocket scientest to figure out if mushrooms bloom outside soon after rain. Then cakes would do the same thing by putting them under water over night simulating rainfall, But if you believe me or not is not the point. The point being that, there is a way to beat these invaders. Thanks for bring it to light for all of these cool people here at the shroomery


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycoguy]
    #2751793 - 06/01/04 02:03 AM (16 years, 11 months ago)

my other casings that were also sprayed with bleach ended up turning out fine. no deformities, so I don't really know what happened.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2762566 - 06/04/04 10:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Yes beware of stealing Hippie du trois' "glory" :doh:He is riding on stamets work not his own. As for bleach it works.What the effects of long term ingestion of organochlorines in minute quantities are known,and usually negative.
I offer a food grade sanitizer as substitute called peroxy acetic acid it decomposes into vinegar and oxygen and is effective as bleach with less overall toxicity to mycelium(less bluing)or....More work on sanitary procedure and avoid contaminations.
It boils down to what your personaly willing to ingest to get high.For myself if I will only eat organic produce why would I personanly contaminate further a damaged cake in the hope of obtaining a few paltry mushrooms of unknown safety.
Hippie du trois;should you show me the detailed analysis of a "bleached mushroom demonstrating safe quantities of organohalides within mushrooms grown with YOUR tek then I shall apologize for sounding an alarm and endorse your method. However should an analysis show novel organohalides you should do the right thing and retract your Safety guarantee.You Are NOT the FDA and have no qualifications but anecdotal info regarding the safety of introducing chlorine into the biosynthetic pathways.While I can cite literaly thousands of possible reactions and conditions in which cakes will form organochlorides rapidly during dunking
So what have you got showing chlorine is not incorporating itself into the shroom?
WR:wexican:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #2767830 - 06/06/04 01:55 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

A friend of mine once drained and refilled his pool with city tap water. When he checked the chlorine level to see how much he needed to add, it was already OFF THE SCALE!
If you live in the woods, have your own well and never go into town, eat at a restaurant, or drink from a public water fountain, you can avoid bleach, but most of us live with it every day and are more or less noooooooooooorrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmaaaaallllll.
harv


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: homelessheathen]
    #2776235 - 06/09/04 12:02 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Whiterasta -- I completely agree with you -- Stamets did mention bleach long before anyone on the boards.

However, I do know a bit about peracetic acid (peroxyacetic acid) and I know that the health aspects are very little known. For example, the time it takes to break down is still debated by scientists. It is used, though, in many experiments, under the pretense that it breaks down completely within an hour or two.

However, when researchers use it, it is at a 35% concentration which is deadly (as opposed to highly toxic.) In lesser concentrations it is known to break down in solution within a matter of hours.

Just my 2c.

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
    #2777215 - 06/09/04 09:21 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

In use as a sanitizing agent in breweries and wineries it (along with ozonation) is used in a lesser concentration for sure.My own experience with it is it is much better to work with than the nitric acid based product used in the milk industry or chlorine and iodophor which I have used in brewing(only on equipment)Of all of these peroxyacetic acid "seemed" the most benign and least persistant. Of course I am basing this soley on my own experience as a licensed pasteurizer, homebrew instructor/winemaker and previous work as an R/D chemist.Aside from 35% H2O2 the next choice for me would be peroxyacetic acid.But as long as I can get 35% H2O2 it will be all I need, along with a little decent sterile technique :wink:
WR:wexican:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
    #2780926 - 06/10/04 11:35 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Hey -- two each his own. I'm gonna keep using bleach just to spite you. TTFN -- I'm going for a swim in my swimming pool (with out the waterproof radioactive-biohazard suit.)

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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
    #2782376 - 06/10/04 05:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
    #2785450 - 06/11/04 05:09 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

to my knowledge
stamets NEVER used bleach on live mycellia
so i'm riding on no one but my own work.
and i daresay i'll not be wasting my time
trying to prove anything to mr. rasta
esp. a negative proposition like
"what have you got showing chlorine is not incorporating itself into the shroom?"
what you think or say have pretty little significance
because the tek's already out
and hundreds are using it with good results
so i'd say it's pretty much here to stay
even without your approval.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2786054 - 06/11/04 09:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Er....uh... OOOKAYFINE  :bitch:
But you see for a process or product to be food grade it must be tested for impurities.Especially new processes which can introduce potentialy harmful byproducts into the end product.I would take small pride in authoring a process which has a HIGH risk of producing organochlorides which are known CONTAMINANTS in food products.Will you still be as sure and proud if there are liver/kidney problems with using bleached fungi?
WR:wexican:
P.S. Hippie if you can show where bleach is used on commercial edible fungi mycelia I will be a believer...however if this were as safe and effective as you say wouldn't bleach dunking spawn be an industry standard by now? Did you give any thought as to the many possible reasons commercial growers do not use chlorine on their spawn or on any stage save crude (and flawed) pasteurizations or for full scale disinfection of surfaces?


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Edited by whiterasta (06/11/04 11:29 PM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2794151 - 06/15/04 08:56 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

No offense Whiterasta, but lighten up. I'm compelled to think time could be better spent worrying about the contaminated atmosphere we breath, rather than the minute possibility that a molecule of chlorine might enter my highly acidic digestive tract.
I'll let you know in 40 or more years how the trace chlorine from city drinking water affects me though.
You go hip,
Joe


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: oreganojoe]
    #2794466 - 06/15/04 11:12 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Honestly, I don't think we should be asking WR to lighten up. WR is just providing information and asking questions which keeps people in check, and personally I appreciate that. Whether WR's concerns are minute or not, it gives us two sides to consider when thinking of using this bleach tek. Again, if we didn't have people like WR out there questioning things, and if everyone just lightened up, who knows what kind of shit we could be doing to our bodies. I say, "Keep it up WR!" you're helping us all make more informed decisions.

lom :thumbup:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
    #2798131 - 06/16/04 08:40 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

if you read this thread
you would find, in the earlier pages,
references for using bleach on edible crops approved by the FDA so your concern has already been addressed.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
    #2798140 - 06/16/04 08:44 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

micro said:
Whiterasta -- I completely agree with you -- Stamets did mention bleach long before anyone on the boards.
--
Micro




ONLY for pasturization and treating blotch,
not for this use.
it's not like stamets invented bleach either you know...
but I am the FIRST to use it on live mycellia
so give the devil his due.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2798323 - 06/16/04 10:15 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

:fire: :bitch: :crymeariver: :shrug:
Like a wall...adding halogens to live myc is a negative.Food stuffs are washed with bleach but no food item has it incorporated into it's growth.No commercial fungus farmers use it on their spawn.As I said I would not be so quick to give this "FDA" approval until it is proven there are no organohalides taken into the myc.It may well be a safe tek but until a G/C/M/S proves it I would be leery.If someone were well connected and had the resources and wished to lay claim to a safe technique. A simple G/C/M/S would determine the presence of contaminants from chlorine quite easily.If not one would simply stand on the number of people who they've had guinea pig the process.
It is really quite simple if you create a tek using unorthodox materials or orthodox materials in a novel way.If the products or tek is not a standard practice for food grade items then some testing assurance is in order before it is pronounced "safe".This "tek"has never seen a lab only guinea pigs.There has been NO analysis of the fruit for residual contamination, only the classic cop out of " hundreds of people have tried it" well hundreds of people have tried many things which have proven harmfull.
I merely pass along a few questions about the overrall "tek" and it's possible safety or danger from organohalides.
I am sure you well know that bleach forms Dioxin in the presence of complex organics.
WR:wexican:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2803232 - 06/17/04 07:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Most these fucks would enjoy arguing with inatimate objects...
Know what i mean Vern :smirk:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: OldSpice]
    #2803315 - 06/17/04 08:24 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

:lol: It's "inanimate" and it certainly feels that way with some folks  :shrug:
WR:wexican:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
    #2803452 - 06/17/04 09:22 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Spealing Nazi... :smirk:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: OldSpice]
    #2803461 - 06/17/04 09:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

you nailed it right,
this fool has been dogging me for over a month now
ever since i bounced his ass out of 'topia
for being a rude jerk.
sent me several PMs here too
thinks he's going to trim me to size,
lol
trim this .!.,


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
    #2803468 - 06/17/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

"Food stuffs are washed with bleach"
now reconcile that statement
with this one-
"bleach forms Dioxin in the presence of complex organics."

the FDA seems to think differently eh ?


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #2803478 - 06/17/04 09:35 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Damn your site looks a lot better Hippie :smirk: :thumbup:


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: OldSpice]
    #2803571 - 06/17/04 10:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Damn your site looks a lot better Hippie 



C-ya,Just don't cross your boss:blowjob:

Hippie:how do I reconcile that bleach is used in the food industry when it is known to produce dioxin under certain conditions?
I don't since I do not make the FDA's policies. As for you booting me from Yourcotopia :lol: I was looking for just that you pompous ass.
BTW if that is the best psuedo-contradiction in my arguement you can dredge from your over-stuffed ego then LMAO Hippie.Many foods are "washed" in mild bleach.None have bleach incorporated in the formation of the final food product,That is bleach is not incorporated into the biosynthetic paths or used as an additive in growing food.Dunking a cake in bleach is incorporating chlorine into the biosynthetic pathways of the mycelium.If you cannot or will not recognize this basic diference then you are a source of ego driven self righteousness(duh)
I simply dislike you Hippie,I do not like your condescending attitudes, you quasi-fascist web site,your quasi-scientific excuses for contaminating a spawn cake with bleach.I dislike you because you are promoting a process which would NOT be approved of for food products and making unproven claims to it's safety.So if you dislike what I have to say go home to yourcotopia so my opinions don't affect you so much and you can promote whatever bullshit "tek" you dream up (neglect tek:lol:er...uh... I forgot a jar and it fruited,damn I invented a "tek")
but if you post your Bull here expect to be questioned and if you can't take it C-ya
WR:wexican:


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