|
 Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
 MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
 
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,399
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 27 days
|
 Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK  [Re: MAIA]
#704745 - 06/27/02 06:42 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
BTW, you can try chlorine dioxide wich is much safer than bleach. You still can give your name to the tek if you want 
A table from the previous link analizing desinfectant by-products formation, chlorine dioxide has none.
Peace,
MAIA
--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
Edited by MAIA (06/27/02 06:47 AM)
|
 Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#705236 - 06/27/02 09:58 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
interesting document,
but it says itself that the evidence is not really in yet.
plus, the amounts they fed those rats was many times greater than what we're using here.
also, we aren't using dirty water containing all those organic compounds like water treatment plants, we're using clean water to mix.
anyway, i've read alot on this subject,
and the bottom line as far as i can tell is that a bleach dip is one of the less risky things we do.
when the food and drug administration tells grocers to stop using bleach to sanitize produce,
and the water companies stop chlorinating my water,
and the bakers quit bleaching my flour,
then i might get worried.
and, after all, no one is forcing anyone to use bleach,
it's their choice.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
|
Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: aural]
#705258 - 06/27/02 10:05 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
actually, aural, it's pretty easy to see why things come to this.
a few people who think they know it all try to tell others what they should do.
but i'm not one to back down just because they say so,
which makes them mad,
and pretty soon they start making personal attacks,
and calling for my threads to be moved, locked, etc.
it's the primary reason i founded mycotopia,
so i'd have a place to freely express my opinions
without some opinionated jerks coming along and trying
to surpress it.
you guys seem to think that just because you tell me to
that i should just drop everything and shut up.
well, i never have done that,
and i don't intend to start now.
so you are wasting everyone's time.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
|
MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,399
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 1 month, 27 days
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#705404 - 06/27/02 10:56 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
"we aren't using dirty water containing all those organic compounds like water treatment plants, we're using clean water to mix"
I know you not using dirty water to make the mix hippie, the problem is you dunk the mycellium in to water/bleach solution you're just doing it, the mycellium is the organic compound, the mix dilutes and reacts with it and THMs are produced at that time, mushrooms are made 90% of water and THMs can be there.
Well, i've just searched some info online about chlorine dioxide and i was reading something about many desinfecting plants just changed from bleach to to chlorine dioxide because its saffer, more effective (costly also) and has a better targeting on contams, don't know about avaiablility on the market though, i just accidentally closed the damn window, i'll try to find it soon.
Peace,
MAIA
--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
|
DinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#705606 - 06/27/02 12:35 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Please post or otherwise give evidence of what you are claiming: I.E. which researchers stated that this technique was acceptable and recommended for psilocybian mushrooms.
-
I would not go so far as to say you invented dunking. You certainly popularized it in this context, especially in conjunction with PF style cakes. Staments has recommended for years the immersion of mycelium blocks in water to re-hydrate them (with a brick on top should it float) for later flushes if the mycelium appears to be dehydrated. Before you ever mentioned a dunking method several other people recommended placing cakes back in jars with water to re-hydrate them?
-
How are you so high and mighty that the advice of your peers is to be discarded?
-
I asked if you had comparative results between your bleach tek and a nearly pure water (not tap water, not spring water.. DI/RO/D water)?
And please, explain how I am in any way suppressing your ideas? I am encouraging further experimentation, however with advisory caution due to the chemicals involved. Please take a step back for a minute.
--
Keep in mind that to us, you are just some guy from the internet. What qualifications do you have to make these claims of utmost safety? Undergrad degree in ChemEng? Industrial chem.? Mycology? PhD? Many so qualified Dr.?s strongly recommend quick and complete disposal of contamination due to the possibility of infection or toxic by products? safe a thousand times matters little if once your wrong and the result is fatal.
-
sigh.. have a good day.
--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.
|
BillyGrass
member
Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 136
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
#706303 - 06/27/02 05:57 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
What are your intentions in starting this experimentation? I don't believe you if you tell me that it's not for the good feeling of starting your own tech or coming up with a great idea.(Btw, I don't think this is a good idea.) I feel sorry for the mushrooms.
Anyway:
"You can drive a car with your feet, but that don't make it a good mutha-fuckin' idea!" -Chris Rock-
|
Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#706941 - 06/28/02 12:56 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
maia,
you know as well as i do that little things make big differences when it comes to chemistry.
and the difference between what's going on in a water treatment facility
and what's going on in a half pint jar bleaching a cake
is huge.
so it is hardly scientific or logical to argue/assume that because some THMs are produced in water treatment facilities that the same occurs in a different process.
that's the same sort of logic as when others were talking about the dioxins from the paper mills.
i'm not arguing that dioxins or trihalomethanes aren't toxic,
they certainly are.
but i am arguing that there's no evidence to show they are being produced in the process i'm using.
there's a huge difference between processing millions of gallons of contaminated water, which contains hundreds of assorted chemicals from run-off, sewers, septic systems, etc.
and dunking a cake 10 minutes in distilled water with a tiny amount of bleach.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
|
Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
#706948 - 06/28/02 01:05 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
dinomyc,
have you even bothered to actually read this thread ?
because if you had read it,
then you would know that i already cited the various universities and organisations and their evidence/suggestions on bleach.
for example, the botany dept. at UCLA recommends spraying edible [button] mushrooms with a bleach solution to fight off bacterial blotch.
now if they figure killing contams with bleach and then eating the shrooms is safe,
why should i be worried about what you guys say ?
also, i find it pretty amusing that you try to disallow my innovation in dunking cakes.
i know that shitake blocks were dunked,
but not cubensis.
and i'd like to see you post the urls of the posts where any one else dunked cakes before me.
you may not like it,
but give the devil his due.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
|
Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: BillyGrass]
#706954 - 06/28/02 01:08 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
my intentions were pretty damn simple-
to see if cubensis mycellia could tolerate bleach
at levels high enough to disinfect.
and i found out that it can, easily.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
|
DinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#707890 - 06/28/02 11:46 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
"have you even bothered to actually read this thread ?
because if you had read it,
then you would know that i already cited the various universities and organisations and their evidence/suggestions on bleach.
for example, the botany dept. at UCLA recommends spraying edible [button] mushrooms with a bleach solution to fight off bacterial blotch."
>> Not quite the same as a long time period of total immersion..
"now if they figure killing contams with bleach and then eating the shrooms is safe,
why should i be worried about what you guys say ?"
Did you read what I said? I specifically said PSILOCYBIAN mushrooms. As you know, or should know, various fungi behave quite differently when exposed to different chemicals. Do you have any scientific evidence that your exact procedure produces none of the chemicals that others expressed concern about? Or perhaps other chems? You are making the same leap of logic that they are, only they are erring on the side of caution.
I asked if you were qualified to make this assertion of utmost safety, and you neglected to answer that. I personally will not drink chlorinated water due to the horrible taste and general unpleasant feeling it leaves me with. I know of many others who grew up drinking water from natural sources who express similar sentiment.
"also, i find it pretty amusing that you try to disallow my innovation in dunking cakes.
i know that shitake blocks were dunked,
but not cubensis."
I never said that your application of water immersion was not innovative or a potentially good idea! But you certainly did not INVENT dunking mycelium, or even dunking cakes! You even admit that others in the gourmet cultivation industry have been doing this for quite some time, so this is certainly not a point of contention.. You invented cake dunking like Marconi invented the radio.
I do not know when you started using your dunking technique, but other people have done various similar methods (the one I remember most distinctly was packing it in wet vermiculite over night.. essentially the same as dunking it, only with some vermiculite...
I think you completely missed the point of what most of the people here were saying:
BE CAREFUL.
?and do not make assertions of safety without rigorous demonstration of safety. A search on the internet does not consist of a thorough investigation, although an increasingly helpful first step it is.
enjoy your weekend everyone
--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.
|
Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#709739 - 06/28/02 09:29 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
sorry hip - im just stirring you again. Good luck with your tek and stirring everyone at FF
--------------------
|
Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
#710054 - 06/29/02 01:28 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
dinomyc,
c'mon dude, you should know better than to ask me to prove a negative.
i can no more 'prove' that a chemical isn't produced
than you can prove that you've never been sodomized.
all i can truthfully say is that there is no scientific evidence to show that my bleach dipping process is harmful.
if someone wants to claim that it is harmful,
then the burden of proof is on them to prove their assertion.
that's how it works in science and logic.
and i'm getting worn out going over the same points over and over while you just ignore the evidence.
of course there's no scientific studies done on spraying psilocybes with bleach, but chemistry is a universal constant, it doesn't work differently in different species.
if bleach is safe to spray on button mushrooms,
then lacking any evidence to the contrary,
it seems safe to assume that it's also safe on psilocybes.
personally, i find this whole discusion of 'safety' and risk to be rather ironic, coming from people who think nothing of consuming illegal hallucinogenic mushrooms.
how many chemicals are in psilocybes that have never been studied ?
hundreds, no doubt.
any one of which could cause cancer and have never been proven to be safe.
in fact, i'd bet that most doctors would agree that eating hallucinogenic mushrooms is very risky behavior.
yet you guys have no problems with that,
or that getting busted and going to prison is much more likely than developing cancer from bleach-dipped cakes.
or bad trips, panic attacks, etc. also much more likely.
everything we do entails risk, and it's all relative.
you want to be a vegan and drink r/o water,
fine, suit yourself.
personally, i drink chlorinated tapwater, smoke cigarettes, eat red meat and mc-donald's french fries, smoke dope, ride motorcycles, shoot guns, guzzle whiskey and beer, get in fights, and engage in all sorts of risky behavior that might well get me killed now or later.
and i use bleach to kill contams in my grow op.
i'm not forcing anyone to do anything,
i'm just posting the info and making sure that it gets a fair and rational defense against those who would seek to create fear without proof.
and, lol, i notice you declined to specify exactly who dunked cakes before me.
it's real easy to make assertions like that,
but far harder to prove it.
everyone knows i brought dunking cakes out at the same time as my invitro tek, and the proof of that staement is easily found in my posts 18 months ago, which is reprinted on pf's site and on usenet.
and when i started dunking, everyone yelled that i was crazy, it wouldn't work, i was a liar, etc.
i even was briefly banned because of all the fighting over those 2 teks.
if you look in your own shroomery faq you'll see that 'dunk tek' points to my site.
but you believe what you want to believe.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
|
DinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#710131 - 06/29/02 03:04 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
"you should know better than to ask me to prove a negative."
I did not ask you to prove a negitive, although logically this is possible.
"i can no more 'prove' that a chemical isn't produced
than you can prove that you've never been sodomized."
Its called chromotography, you can identify or at least isolate the chemicals present. How do you think they came up with the lists of what is present in psilocybian mushrooms to begin with? How do you think they test other chems for impureities?
"if someone wants to claim that it is harmful,
then the burden of proof is on them to prove their assertion.
that's how it works in science and logic."
a) with an issue of safety the "burden of proof" falls on the safe side of the road. Why do you think the FDA spends such a long time testing and analyzing the effects of drugs?
b) to what science and logic do you refer? numerology?
I agree there are many other chems, some of which are in psilocybian mushrooms, which are of potential concern, as well as a legal issue. That was nothign to do with what myself and the others who were responding to you were trying to caution you and those who use this tek about.
go to the beginning of advanced cultivation, look for rehydrate or rehydration. there were many in standard cult aswell, however I do not remember where (no frame of reference to remember by).
as I said before, you certainly popularized the procedure in this context, and clearly you are attempting to improve upon it..
have a good day.
--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
#710181 - 06/29/02 04:10 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -
|
Shdwstr
FSRCanada
Registered: 02/17/01
Posts: 2,156
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#710272 - 06/29/02 05:49 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
"personally, i drink chlorinated tapwater, smoke cigarettes, eat red meat and mc-donald's french fries, smoke dope, ride motorcycles, shoot guns, guzzle whiskey and beer, get in fights, and engage in all sorts of risky behavior that might well get me killed now or later."
So basically your saying you just like the rest of us 
|
camel
old hand
Registered: 04/02/99
Posts: 416
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#710450 - 06/29/02 07:24 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
> a few people who think they know it all try to tell others what they should do
isn't this like the pot callin' the kettle black?
camel
--------------------
Don't do drugs.
|
Alien
Galactic Shaman
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 1,868
Loc: Jupiter's Moon
|
Post deleted by Administrator [Re: camel]
#710668 - 06/29/02 09:08 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
-Alien 
|
Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Alien]
#710770 - 06/29/02 09:48 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
you tell it like it is, alien.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
|
camel
old hand
Registered: 04/02/99
Posts: 416
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Alien]
#710931 - 06/29/02 10:59 AM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
LMAO
it's funny cause this is the only handle i have ever used at the shroomery, why don'tcha check into yer ip logs before ya go making wild accusations.
and i "ripped off your cabinet idea"?! im sorry, but... wtf are you talking about (actually, i care very little about what you're talking about but this is a pretty funny "accusation" to say the least  )?
listen, im not saying you're lying, but your delusions that you believe to be true, are actually false (and laughable at best )
cheers
camel
--------------------
Don't do drugs.
Edited by camel (06/29/02 11:02 AM)
|
DinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
|
Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ]
#713508 - 06/30/02 03:31 PM (22 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
To prove a negative one assumes the contrapositive of the negative, disproves that, and thereby proves the negative, or by direct proof, which is sometimes more difficult.
Example:
Prove that the rational numbers between zero and one are countably infinite (prove that one cannot count all rational numbers between zero and one in finite time, a negative, but that a simple mapping is possible from natural numbers, which are considered to exist in a countable although infinite form):
We take the form a/b to represent these numbers, as all rational numbers have a fractional representation from the set of natural numbers. We take a from zero to infinity by steps of one, and b from one to infinity in steps of one, however each step of a takes place after the last step of b to infinity (a countably infinite endpoint), and with b>a:
0/b where b is any natural number excluding 0, (1/1 included if it is the closed interval [0,1]) 1/2, 1/3, 1/4?. 1/infinity, 2/3, 2/4, 2/5 ?. 2/infinity? etc. all numbers between zero and one will be represented by this infinite set As you probably notice there is some overlap, however this is irrelevant as the set is still infinite and countable, as it was mapped directly from the set of natural numbers.
Or, for proof of infinite, simply assume finite dimensions (contrapositive). If the set were of finite dimensions then any subset will be of finite dimensions, so we need only prove that a subset is infinite. Take all numbers 1/a, where a is a natural number. This is a subset of the set with which we are concerned, and, as natural numbers are infinite, that subset is infinite, and therefore the whole set is infinite, and therefore you cannot count in finite time all rational numbers between one and zero.
There, proof that you cannot count all rational numbers between zero and one in finite time, but that they are considered mathematically countable, a proof of a negative.
--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
bikeidaho
Compiler
PooPs
MrEntropy
1 2 all )
realrasta
H2O2shrooms
BigJohnson