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 Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
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 MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
 
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,399
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
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 Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK  [Re: aural]
#701980 - 06/25/02 09:55 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Dioxines" are the "e" of dioxins  , anyway you're right... oh forget it.
Peace,
MAIA
--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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 Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#702158 - 06/26/02 02:49 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol
you're all just talking shit.
post 1 piece of evidence to demonstrate the production of dioxin by this process if you can.
you can't, because there isn't any to be found.
just because huge paper mills produce tiny amounts of dioxin by using millions of gallons of 'bleach' to process millions of pounds of wood pulp under very specific industrial conditions/processes, does in no way show that such occurs here.
in fact, since the FDA itself recommends our formula for use on edibles i'd say that's good enough.
and it's just plain wrong to call sodium hypochlorite a 'toxin',
it's not even a poison.
nor is it carcinogenic, etc. all the info has been cited and posted yet some chose to ignore evidence in favor of shrill dramatics.
fortunately, most folks are too smart to be taken in by your fallacious arguments, and the tek is gaining acceptance despite your opposition.
as for water being 'pure' before industrial society,
you obviously know nothing about pre-industrial society,
when millions of humans perished from bad water over the centuries, primarily polluted by their own excrement,
and that of their animals.
all very 'natural', and quite unhealthy.
i daresay the water today is much safer to drink from a tap than it ever was from a stream.
and, btw, bleach is used to purify stream water to this day by survivalists.
.
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Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
Edited by Hippie3 (06/26/02 03:53 PM)
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Deleted [Re: Hippie3]
#702180 - 06/26/02 03:56 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Content Removed.
Edited by Jared (04/01/04 01:04 AM)
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bumboclot
Stranger
Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 8
Last seen: 22 years, 5 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Jared]
#702200 - 06/26/02 04:18 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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see the point is youre to busy protecting the tek that you dont understand weather bleach is toxic or not doesnt matter to me. what matters is that it is bleach. yeah no contames well a lot of people can grow without contams if youre getting them than work on your procedure. there are people like you that will injest bleach and there are people like me who wont. even if you proved that digestion of bleach did nothing still i wouldnt care. its still bleach. by the way i take it as though you know what the long term effects are? neither do i and thats scarey. you dont know what it could do to someone if anything. you sound like the tobacco company..."prove it causes cancer"...but i respect your efforts and you tek does work with great resaults.....but i dont have a problem with contams but if i did id throw it away and re grow it
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aural
Hola Amigos!
Registered: 05/03/00
Posts: 511
Loc: The Desert In The Spring
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: bumboclot]
#702354 - 06/26/02 05:56 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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bleach is not a poison?!
I dug out the Chlorox bottle from under the sink.Among other things,it said "IF SWALLOWED: do not induce vomiting.Call poison control center immediately."
I'm not quite as bile-filled as the poster 2 up from me,but it's no wonder so many people have a strong reaction to your "style",Hip....
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ShroomNewb
enthusiast
Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 230
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: bumboclot]
#702355 - 06/26/02 05:58 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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WOW, GOOD WORK YOUR A CLOSED MINDED PERSON GO YOU!
I'm sorry, but even the godly shroom cannot help you because you cannot even help yourself! Listen to the evidence don't just plug your ears and chant "NANANANANANA"
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,399
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#702432 - 06/26/02 06:44 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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The problem is also when some bacteria (wich is sometimes the contam you want to fight) breakdown not only the proteins but the amino acids. When they break down, straight chains amines can be produced. If you take a look here
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/NaHClO.html
In reply to:
"Sodium Hypochlorite Solution, 5.79% ....
.......
**** SECTION 10 - STABILITY AND REACTIVITY ****
Chemical Stability:
Stable under normal temperatures and pressures.
Conditions to Avoid:
Incompatible materials.
Incompatibilities with Other Materials:
Sodium hypochlorite is incompatible with amines, ammonium acetate,
ammonium carbonate, ammonium nitrate, ammonium oxalate, ammonium
phosphate, cellulose, and ethyleneimine.
Hazardous Decomposition Products:
Chlorine, sodium oxide.
Hazardous Polymerization: Has not been reported."
As you can see it is incompatible with amines, wich are very common in organic material (mycellium).
About the clorine as a hazardous decomposition product and hypochlorite Ion studies, check this
http://www.lakes-environmental.com/toxic/CHLORINE.HTML
In reply to:
"The main source of information for this fact sheet is EPA's Drinking Water Criteria Document for Chlorine, Hypochlorous Acid and Hypochlorite Ion. Other secondary sources include the Hazardous Substances Data Bank (HSDB), a database of summaries of peer-reviewed literature, and the Registry of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances (RTECS), a database of toxic effects that are not peer reviewed.....
....
Cancer Risk:
* No information is available on the carcinogenic effects of chlorine in humans from inhalation exposure.
* Several human studies have investigated the relationship between exposure to chlorinated drinking water and cancer. These studies were not designed to assess whether chlorine itself causes cancer, but whether trihalomethanes or other organic compounds occurring in drinking water as a result of chlorination are associated with an increased risk of cancer. These studies show an association between bladder and rectal cancer and chlorination byproducts in drinking water. (5)
* Chlorine has not been found to be carcinogenic in animals; no tumors were noted in a study where rats were exposed to 100 ppm chlorine in their drinking water over their lifespan, for 7 generations (see Reproductive/Developmental Effects section). (4)
* Another study evaluated the potential carcinogenicity of chlorinated drinking water in rats and mice and found no statistically significant increase in tumors that could be related to the chlorinated water. (2)
* EPA has not classified chlorine for carcinogenicity. (8)"
Might be a risk that's all.
Peace,
MAIA
--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: aural]
#703160 - 06/26/02 03:50 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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style objections aside,
bleach most certainly is not a poison.
in fact, as i said, it is used to purify water from streams of uncertain cleaness, etc.
what bleach is, is alkaline, strongly so, caustic aka basic ph around 12, which can chemically 'burn' your tissue.
but if the ph is adjusted to more neutral range
then one can safely drink the bleach solution.
it's not poisonous as such.
do some research on the matter and you'll see i'm correct.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
Edited by Hippie3 (07/15/02 04:02 AM)
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Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Jared]
#703169 - 06/26/02 03:51 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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jared,
i'm glad i already banned you,
seems i made the right decision.
consider yourself fucked.
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Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#703211 - 06/26/02 04:02 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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i've seen both those links before,
certainly no smoking gun there.
you give no info as to just what exactly occurs when sodium hypochlorite contacts 'amines'.
and the second link is talking about chlorine, which is not the same thing as bleach aka sodium hypochlorite.
salt is sodium chloride, which also contains chlorine yet surely no one calls salt a poison.
neither link directly supports the claim that this bleach dip tek creates any toxins nor is there any evidence that even if there were toxins created, that any significant amount would be absorbed and passed on to humans eating the fruit thereof.
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Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#703216 - 06/26/02 04:03 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is in the wrong forum - the idea of using anti-bacterial agents to clean up colonised substrates is not new, and is not experimental. That being said, if someone needs to rely on bleach to stop their cakes/casings from contaminating they should not be posting in the advanced mushroom forum, they should be improving their technique to avoid future contamination.
The only experimenting going on here is Hippie testing his tek on other people's cakes to determine whether or not the bleach will effect the genetics of the mushroom (which im sure it will), and to test the toxicity of the solution.
Load of bs in my opinion like ive said before - and you quoted stamets out of context hippie
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DinoMyc
Ipsa scientiapotestas est
Registered: 11/13/99
Posts: 1,080
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#703348 - 06/26/02 04:46 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't why you harbor such aggression for people who do not agree with you. Take a few steps back and think for a minute..
chlorine bleach is poisonous, _especially_ if ingested. In the low concentrations it is likely not a problem, but remember that fungi have a tendency to take up and concentrate some compounds, and I do not know of any study of psilocybian mushrooms which investigated this.
"It is impossible for a man to learn what he has the conceit that he already knows" Epictetus
You certainly seem to fall within this category.
Didn?t this tek develop out of your defense for an addition to you now discarded milk-dunking tek? ?And what of your rather low yielding in vitro tek (nearly identical in effect to the ?poor man?s terrarium?)? You come up with many potentially good ideas, but refuse to take advice from others.
--
and now to your response to my water comment:
?you obviously know nothing about pre-industrial society?
I suppose living in a third world country (no street lights, period. Fewer paved roads than fingers..) and drinking directly from rivers, springs, etc. does not count? People do die from water borne illness, mostly bacterial or parasitic in origin, but nearly all of these are a result of human activity. Fecal to ingestion is a primary route, as you mentioned, but for some (mostly unheard of now) parasites it is other rather more disturbing routes... guinea worm is one which always disturbed me greatly, although it is essentially eradicated. I?ve had, perhaps still have, various water borne parasitic organisms, for example Giardiasis, but I am not dead.
Chlorine is not the recommended water purifier chemical, except for people with sensitivity to iodine or the silver based additives. Water from many, if not most, of the fresh water sources in the USA (in northern Canada this is not an issue, strangely population density is far less there.. water temp is another issue, but the lack of chemical contamination is another major aspect) cannot be safely drunk from due to the chemicals present in them.
And besides, the latest immunological studies are finding parasitic infection, especially at a younger age, prevents allergic reactions and improves immune function. Obviously if it is so major an infection that you die, this is not the case, however there are many effective cures for parasitic infection outside of a doctors office.
---
All we are saying is be careful, you are adding a chemical which you might not want in your body, so be warned. If you provide your tek but not this warning you are intentionally negligent.
Rehydration is nothing new, and in fact the casing layer acts as a water reservoir ? one of the primary purposes for using one in the first place, as you yourself have commented in the past, unless I am mistaken.
What of the consumption of the contaminant mycelium by the desired mycelium? The potentially dangerous chemicals could be transferred and eventually be ingested. Personally I see this to be of greater concern than the bleach issue, if people use this tek to make up for generally poor form in the preparation of their substrate.
Have you made any efforts to dunk with DI (de-ionized) or distilled water? Please do, if you have time and the will to spare a few cakes. Perhaps the chems you add to you dunk water effect the fruiting in other ways, and in their absence far greater yields can be achieved.
I do not wish to quash your experimentalist urges, just relax, postpone your arrogance for a time and take some advice from others.
--------------------
If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.
Edited by DinoMyc (06/26/02 04:49 PM)
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Deleted [Re: Hippie3]
#703444 - 06/26/02 05:14 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Content Removed.
Edited by Jared (04/01/04 01:04 AM)
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Barbi
Plastic Person
Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 12,976
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Jared]
#703522 - 06/26/02 05:41 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Edited by mndfreeze
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Deleted [Re: Barbi]
#704261 - 06/26/02 10:01 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Content Removed.
Edited by Jared (04/01/04 01:04 AM)
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,399
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#704409 - 06/26/02 10:57 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
you give no info as to just what exactly occurs when sodium hypochlorite contacts 'amines'.
Same thing with cellulose, in fact, the hazardous reaction is directly bound to humic acids and fluvic acids.
Both fulvic acids and humic acids found in soil result from the chemical and biological degradation of dead organisms. The formation of these substances may come about by the oxidative changes of organic fragments, microbial synthesis, or chemical condensation after biological breakdown or self-digestion of humic biomass. In addition, many of the secondary metabolites of fungi are organic acids, so they help increase the accumulation of humic-acid rich organic matter that is resistant to degradation.
In reply to:
the second link is talking about chlorine, which is not the same thing as bleach aka sodium hypochlorite.
salt is sodium chloride
If you read carefuly the bold text it says Hypoclorous Acid aka bleach.
In reply to:
neither link directly supports the claim that this bleach dip tek creates any toxins nor is there any evidence that even if there were toxins created, that any significant amount would be absorbed and passed on to humans eating the fruit thereof.
As i said, bleach itself can do you no harm, bleach reaction with humic acids is the main concern, ... whether trihalomethanes or other organic compounds occurring in drinking water as a result of chlorination are associated with an increased risk of cancer.
Peace,
MAIA
--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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Hippie3
mycotopiate
Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#704500 - 06/27/02 01:09 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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let's see, i've quoted documents from the world health organisation, the food and drug administration, the universities of california and maryland--all which state that the procedure i'm using is perfectly safe.
now who should i listen to, some guys from the internet who are trying to tell me what to do without any proof,
or the organizations i cited above ?
who would you listen to--
'bluemeanie' or the botany department at UCLA ?
'dynomyk' or the world health organisation ?
the attacks are laughable.
for example, these amines mentioned are inside of living cells, not exposed to the bleach.
and i'm the guy who invented the dunk tek, too,
so i certainly have tried dunking in plain water.
noticed you forgot to mention that tek as you try
to put down my work.
and this most certainly is 'advanced',
no one has ever done this before using bleach.
the nearly 2000 hits on this thread certainly
show that many people are interested despite
efforts made to surpress this info,
and c'mon, the personal attacks aren't even worth
replying to, pretty damn lame.
and it's equally lame to characterize
contams as the fault of the grower's lax procedures,
nearly all my contams come long after colonization,
birth, and flushing have occured, caused by age
not by any lack of sterile procedure.
so why don't you guys just give it a rest ?
people are going to listen to the guys saying
'i tried it and got great results', not fearmongers.
you can't stop the spread of knowledge of this tek,
it's far too late.
--------------------
Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
Edited by Hippie3 (06/29/02 12:29 PM)
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aural
Hola Amigos!
Registered: 05/03/00
Posts: 511
Loc: The Desert In The Spring
Last seen: 20 years, 8 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#704531 - 06/27/02 03:11 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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"you can't stop the spread of knowledge of this tek,
it's far too late. "
yet another chapter in the sad saga of Hippie3 vs. some vast conspiracy...
And yet you still don't understand why things always seem to come to this?
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,399
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#704549 - 06/27/02 03:48 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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It seems like we are talking at diferent levels here, i grow mushrooms only for fun and because i like this hobbie i come here trying to get information and try to discuss related issues, it would be bad for the shroomery and for this comunity if we didn't have critical mind, it is the spirit of criticism that made possible science as it is today as surely is beneficial for any discussion. I'm just pointing out some info i saw online and some knowlodge i have, i don't want by any means discredit your idea and work, you diserve all merit, all i see is at your level things get serious, you get serious and get mad about people trying to warn some possible bad effects. If your friends at the university and organisations are positive about your idea go ahead and use it, i just don't believe there are so many tests about long term bad effects using bleach on mushrooms and i believe other people arround here think the same way. So, do you want me to be sorry for participating hippie ?
People will have to choose, let us put things this way.
Peace,
MAIA
--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,399
Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
Last seen: 3 months, 28 days
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: MAIA]
#704666 - 06/27/02 05:52 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Talking about online documents, have you checked this one ?
http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc216.htm
Makes me think twice,
"
2. CHEMISTRY OF DISINFECTANTS AND DISINFECTANT BY-PRODUCTS
2.1 Background
The use of chlorine (Cl2) as a water disinfectant has come under
scrutiny because of its potential to react with natural organic matter
(NOM) and form chlorinated disinfectant by-products (DBPs). Within
this context, NOM serves as the organic DBP precursor, whereas bromide
ion (Br-) serves as the inorganic precursor. Treatment strategies
generally available to water systems exceeding drinking-water
standards include removing DBP precursors and using alternative
disinfectants for primary and/or secondary (distribution system)
disinfection. Alternative disinfectant options that show promise are
chloramines (NH2Cl, monochloramine), chlorine dioxide (ClO2) and
ozone (O3). While ozone can serve as a primary disinfectant only and
chloramines as a secondary disinfectant only, both chlorine and
chlorine dioxide can serve as either primary or secondary
disinfectants.
Chloramine presents the significant advantage of virtually
eliminating the formation of chlorination by-products and, unlike
chlorine, does not react with phenols to create taste- and
odour-causing compounds. However, the required contact time for
inactivation of viruses and Giardia cysts is rarely obtainable by
chloramine post-disinfection at existing water treatment facilities
(monochloramine is significantly less biocidal than free chlorine).
More recently, the presence of nitrifying bacteria and nitrite
(NO2-) and nitrate (NO3-) production in chloraminated distribution
systems as well as the formation of organic chloramines have raised
concern.
The use of chlorine dioxide, like chloramine, can reduce the
formation of chlorinated by-products during primary disinfection.
However, production of chlorine dioxide, its decomposition and
reaction with NOM lead to the formation of by-products such as
chlorite (ClO2-), a compound that is of health concern.
If used as a primary disinfectant followed by a chloramine
residual in the distribution system, ozone can eliminate the need for
contact between DBP precursors and chlorine. Ozone is known to react
both with NOM to produce organic DBPs such as aldehydes and increase
levels of assimilable organic carbon and with bromide ion to form
bromate.
A thorough understanding of the mechanisms of DBP formation
allows microbial inactivation goals and DBP control goals to be
successfully balanced. This chapter examines a range of issues
affecting DBP formation and control to provide guidance to utilities
considering the use of various disinfecting chemicals to achieve
microbial inactivation with DBP control.
2.2 Physical and chemical properties of common disinfectants and
inorganic disinfectant by-products
The important physical and chemical properties of commonly used
disinfectants and inorganic DBPs are summarized in Table 1.
2.2.1 Chlorine
Chlorine, a gas under normal pressure and temperature, can be
compressed to a liquid and stored in cylindrical containers. Because
chlorine gas is poisonous, it is dissolved in water under vacuum, and
this concentrated solution is applied to the water being treated. For
small plants, cylinders of about 70 kg are used; for medium to large
plants, tonne containers are common; and for very large plants,
chlorine is delivered by railway tank cars or road (truck) tankers.
Chlorine is also available in granular or powdered form as calcium
hypochlorite (Ca(OCl)2) or in liquid form as sodium hypochlorite
(NaOCl; bleach).
Chlorine is used in the form of gaseous chlorine or hypochlorite
(OCl-). In either form, it acts as a potent oxidizing agent and often
dissipates in side reactions so rapidly that little disinfection is
accomplished until amounts in excess of the chlorine demand have been
added. As an oxidizing agent, chlorine reacts with a wide variety of
compounds, in particular those that are considered reducing agents
(hydrogen sulfide [H2S], manganese(II), iron(II), sulfite [SO32-],
Br-, iodide [I-], nitrite). From the point of view of DBP formation
and disinfection, these reactions may be important because they may be
fast and result in the consumption of chlorine.
Chlorine gas hydrolyses in water almost completely to form
hypochlorous acid (HOCl):
Cl2 + H2O -> HOCl + H+ + Cl-
The hypochlorous acid dissociates into hydrogen ions (H+) and
hypochlorite ions in the reversible reaction:
HOCl <-> H+ + OCl-
Hypochlorous acid is a weak acid with a p Ka of approximately
7.5 at 25?C. Hypochlorous acid, the prime disinfecting agent, is
therefore dominant at a pH below 7.5 and is a more effective
disinfectant than hypochlorite ion, which dominates above pH 7.5.
The rates of the decomposition reactions of chlorine increase as
the solution becomes more alkaline, and these reactions can
theoretically produce chlorite and chlorate (ClO3-); they occur
during the electrolysis of chloride (Cl-) solutions when the anodic
and cathodic compartments are not separated, in which case the
chlorine formed at the anode can react with the alkali formed at the
cathode. On the other hand, hypochlorous acid/hypochlorite (or
hypobromous acid/hypobromite, HOBr/OBr-) can be formed by the action
of chlorine (or bromine) in neutral or alkaline solutions."
What about this ?
"1.5.2.3 Uncertainties of epidemiological data
Even in well designed and well conducted analytical studies,
relatively poor exposure assessments were conducted. In most studies,
duration of exposure to disinfected drinking-water and the water
source were considered. These exposures were estimated from
residential histories and water utility or government records. In only
a few studies was an attempt made to estimate a study participant's
water consumption and exposure to either total THMs or individual
species of THMs. In only one study was an attempt made to estimate
exposures to other DBPs. In evaluating some potential risks, i.e.,
adverse outcomes of pregnancy, that may be associated with relatively
short term exposures to volatile by-products, it may be important to
consider the inhalation as well as the ingestion route of exposure
from drinking-water. In some studies, an effort was made to estimate
both by-product levels in drinking-water for etiologically relevant
time periods and cumulative exposures. Appropriate models and
sensitivity analysis such as Monte Carlo simulation can be used to
help estimate these exposures for relevant periods.
A major uncertainty surrounds the interpretation of the observed
associations, as exposures to a relatively few water contaminants have
been considered. With the current data, it is difficult to evaluate
how unmeasured DBPs or other water contaminants may have affected the
observed relative risk estimates.
More studies have considered bladder cancer than any other
cancer. The authors of the most recently reported results for bladder
cancer risks caution against a simple interpretation of the observed
associations. The epidemiological evidence for an increased relative
risk of bladder cancer is not consistent -- different risks are
reported for smokers and non-smokers, for men and women, and for high
and low water consumption. Risks may differ among various geographic
areas because the DBP mix may be different or because other water
contaminants are also present. More comprehensive water quality data
must be collected or simulated to improve exposure assessments for
epidemiological studies.
Note: After the printing of the document, Dr James Huff kindly
brought to the attention of the Secretariat that a study on the
carcinogenicity of sodium hypochlorite, and another on the
carcinogenicity of bromodichloromethane, chlorodibromomethane, bromoform,
chlorine, and chloramine, were not cited in the document. The authors'
abstracts of these studies are given below.
Soffritti M, Belpoggi F, Lenzi A, Maltoni C (1997) Results of long-term
carcinogenicity studies of chlorine in rats. Ann NY Acad Sci,
837: 189-208.
Four groups, each of 50 male and 50 female Sprague-Dawley rats, of the
colony used in the Cancer Research Center of Bentivoglio of the Ramazzini
Foundation, 12 weeks old at the start of the study, received drinking
water containing sodium hypochlorite, resulting in concentrations of active
chlorine of 750, 500, and 100 mg/l (treated groups), and tap water (active
chlorine < 0.2 mg/l) (control group), respectively, for 104 weeks. Among
the female rats of the treated groups, an increased incidence of lymphomas
and leukemias has been observed, although this is not clearly dose related.
Moreover, sporadic cases of some tumors, the occurrence of which is extremely
unusual among the untreated rats of the colony used (historical controls),
were detected in chlorine-exposed animals. The results of this study confirm
the results of the experiment of the United States National Toxicology
Program (1991), which showed an increase of leukemia among female Fischer
344/N rats following the administration of chlorine (in the form of sodium
hypochlorite and chloramine) in their drinking water. The data here presented
call for further research aimed at quantifying the oncogenic risks related to
the chlorination of drinking water, to be used as a basis for consequent
public health measures.
Dunnick JK, Melnick RL (1993) Assessment of the carcinogenic potential of
chlorinated water: experimental studies of chlorine, chloramine, and
trihalomethanes. J Natl Cancer Inst, 85: 817-822.
BACKGROUND: Water chlorination has been one of the major disease prevention
treatments of this century. While epidemiologic studies suggest an association
between cancer in humans and consumption of chlorination byproducts in
drinking water, these studies have not been adequate to draw definite
conclusions about the carcinogenic potential of the individual byproducts
PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to investigate the carcinogenic
potential of chlorinated or chloraminated drinking water and of four organic
trihalomethane byproducts of chlorination (chloroform, bromodichloromethane,
chlorodibromomethane, and bromoform) in rats and mice.
METHODS: Bromodichloromethane, chlorodibromomethane, bromoform, chlorine, or
chloramine was administered to both sexes of F344/N rats and (C57BL/6 x C3H)F1
mice (hereafter called B6C3F1 mice). Chloroform was given to both sexes of
Osborne-Mendel rats and B6C3F1 mice. Chlorine or chloramine was administered
daily in the drinking water for 2 years at doses ranging from 0.05 to 0.3
mmol/kg per day. The trihalomethanes were administered by gavage in corn oil
at doses ranging from 0.15 to 4.0 mmol/kg per day for 2 years, with the
exception of chloroform, which was given for 78 weeks.
RESULTS: The trihalomethanes were carcinogenic in the liver, kidney, and/or
intestine of rodents. There was equivocal evidence for carcinogenicity in
female rats that received chlorinated or chloraminated drinking water; this
evidence was based on a marginal increase in the incidence of mononuclear
cell leukemia. Rodents were generally exposed to lower doses of chlorine and
chloramine than to the trihalomethanes, but the doses in these studies were
the maximum that the animals would consume in the drinking water. The highest
doses used in the chlorine and chloramine studies were equivalent to a daily
gavage dose of bromodichloromethane that induced neoplasms of the large
intestine in rats. In contrast to the results with the trihalomethanes,
administration of chlorine or chloramine did not cause a clear carcinogenic
response in rats or mice after long-term exposure.
CONCLUSION: These results suggest that organic byproducts of chlorination are
the chemicals of greatest concern in assessment of the carcinogenic potential
of chlorinated drinking water."
When you're sure about something you have to be sure you read everything you know.
Peace,
MAIA
--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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