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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612739 - 04/19/02 10:33 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

In reply to:

"but not cubies, which don't eat wood."



Probably a moot point , but I believe it was LK who has found some cubes growing on straight wood down in GA for two seasons in a row. And then there is the infamous B+. Cubes can eat wood sometimes, now lets just hope Mr. G doesn't show up....

So far as trich goes, bleach solutions can work, but getting the level where you can knock out the trich without harming the mycelium is tricky. It's a pretty fine line. But then again, damaged mycelium is better than trich infestation. I first used a bleach solution (10%) on trich on accident. It killed the trich, but seriously affected the casing as well. Later experiments with more dilute solutions worked better, but always had an impact on the myc at strengths great enough to battle the trich. This was on casings of course, it may be easier on cakes.

Another thing to consider would be alcohol. I've also used it to battle trich on casings. Diluted, as well as full strength. As far as casings go, I think this would be better than bleach. The alcohol does tend to kill back the mycelium around the infestation, but it kills the infestation. The area where the myc is killed back is colonized by beneficial bacteria, which protect the casing until they eat all the alcohol or it evaporates it which case the mycelium moves back in and takes over. I would imagine that dilute alcohols wouldn't harm the resilient cakes, and might not pose the quasi-concerns of dioxin....

Not that I really know what I'm talking about, I never thoroughly investigated either bleach or alcohol, just tried them out of desperation, not ingenuity like you hippie.


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612750 - 04/19/02 10:44 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

That probably sounded bad, don't get me wrong--experimenting is the path to enlightenment.
And along those lines, it should be said that this is not an exact repeat of Stamets' experiments. . .he used bleach solutions as a means to prep bulk substrate, not to 'decontaminate' existing mycelial growth.
Mixing bleach with milk, though, I think is a bit counterproductive in some ways. Milk, ALL milk, is heavy with bacterial growth. The threshold for pasteurization [here in WA state, anyway] is 30,000 colony forming units per mL of milk. Meaning 30,000 viable bacteria per cc is OK to be called 'pasteurized' and put on the shelf. Someone did a project at my old workplace where they grew out various milks 'off the shelf' and the averages [even for skim] was around 14,000 CFU/mL.
Let the experiments go forward, but just superficially it would seem more beneficial to separate the bleach and milk steps.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612761 - 04/19/02 10:54 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

I would expect you to get a larger load of chlorinated toxins from a swimming pool than from a dunked cake in a bleach solution at 500 ppm. Don't forget, even though the solution is at 500 ppm, only a fraction of that will actually be absorbed by the cake. The majority will be left behind or drain out. Next, some of the clorine that is left over will evaporate into the air. Finally, whatever is left is going to be spread through the entire mycelium/fruitbody mass (assuming it gets absorbed). It is very unlikely that the toxins, assuming there are any, would accumulate in just the fruitbodies.

Unless somebody takes a fruitbody grown this way and runs it through GC/MS/etc to see what is in there nobody is really ever going to know if they contain bad toxins or not. Untill then we are all just pissing in the wind making guesses.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Suntzu]
    #612827 - 04/19/02 12:27 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

i'm using dried powdered milk. surely that is bacteria-free, at least initially. that way i can mix it double or even triple strength, and i keep it refridgerated to minimize bacterial reproduction.
but i agree, i think it would be better to follow the milk dunk with a short bleach dunk, it only takes 3-4 minutes for the bleach to do it's stuff. that way there's even less time for any potential toxins to be taken in, just decontaminate the surface.


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/19/02 12:35 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612916 - 04/19/02 02:50 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

> powdered milk. surely that is bacteria-free

I wouldn't count on any food item being bacteria free unless it has been sealed in an air tight container and gamma irradiated.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Seuss]
    #612920 - 04/19/02 02:56 PM (19 years, 21 days ago)

lol
relatively free, compared to liquid milk from the store.
i didn't mean to imply that it was sterile.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #613580 - 04/20/02 08:08 AM (19 years, 21 days ago)

ok, here's some pics.
the first 2 are of bleach-dunked cakes 5 days after exposure.


this pic is of a contam'd cake that i cut out lots of green mold, dunked in dilute bleach solution, and now, 3 days later, it shows new growth and no green mold.
for more info, check the threads titled 'bleach experiment' at mycotopia.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #615331 - 04/22/02 09:22 AM (19 years, 18 days ago)

ok, here's some pics of the first batch beginning to pin after their 1% bleach dunk. this is their 3rd flush.




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Edited by Hippie3 (04/22/02 09:23 AM)


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #616566 - 04/23/02 06:28 PM (19 years, 17 days ago)

here's another pic, this was a trich-infected cake which i operated on then dunked in dilute bleach solution.
only 1 pin, but it's 3rd flush so i wasn't really expecting much.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #622962 - 04/30/02 09:28 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

more info supporting the safety of this method.
read this and weep, all ye naysayers.
direct lab experiments involving sodium hypochloride [bleach] and starches [corn starch, etc.] fed to rats with no ill effects.
============================================

Toxicological evaluation of some food
additives including anticaking agents,
antimicrobials, antioxidants, emulsifiers
and thickening agents


WHO FOOD ADDITIVES SERIES NO. 5


The evaluations contained in this publication
were prepared by the Joint FAO/WHO Expert
Committee on Food Additives which met in Geneva,
25 June - 4 July 19731

World Health Organization
Geneva
1974



1 Seventeenth Report of the Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on
Food Additives, Wld Hlth Org. techn. Rep. Ser., 1974, No. 539;
FAO Nutrition Meetings Report Series, 1974, No. 53.

OXIDIZED STARCHES

Explanation

Whatever oxidizing agent is used only minor modifications of the
starch molecule are achieved in normal manufacturing practice. These
are equivalent to the introduction of 1% w/w of carboxyl (-COOH) or
0.5% w/w of keto (-CO) groups or, 3.6 carboxyl and 2.9 carbonyl groups
per 100 glucopyranose units. No chlorine is introduced into the
molecule and the final products usually contain only residues of
sodium chloride, sodium sulfate and sulfur dioxide.

BIOLOGICAL DATA

BIOCHEMICAL ASPECTS

Early comparative experiments pointed to inhibition of amylolysis
(Tremoli?res et al., 1959). In vitro digestibility by pancreatin or
saliva was used to compare slightly and highly oxidized corn starch
with unmodified corn starch and a reference starch. Maltose production
after a fixed interval of enzyme action was taken as a measure of
digestibility. The oxidized starch was 10-15% less digestible by
pancreatin than unmodified starch but there was no obvious difference
as regards salivary digestion (Shuman & Mertz, 1959). The
digestibility of oxidized wheat starch (conditions not stated) was
examined in rats by matched-feeding techniques using the modified
starch as the sole source of carbohydrate at a level of 63.7% (dry
basis) of the diet. The degree of assimilation by and the general
effects on groups of six rats over a feeding period of 28 days were
assessed from consideration of body weight changes, faecal residues,
digestibility coefficients for starch and postmortem appearance of the
animals and their gastrointestinal tracts. The digestibility
coefficients were calculated from the starch content of ingested food
and residues found in faeces and postmortem gastrointestinal contents.
Body weight gain and digestibility coefficients were practically
indistinguishable from those obtained for wheat starch or corn starch.
Nothing abnormal was noted on postmortem examination (Booher et al.,
1951).

Other studies, in three groups of three rats each, used corn
starch oxidized with 3.9, 4.5, or 5.5% hypochlorite calculated as
chlorine. This corresponds to the introduction of 0.57%, (2.04 COOH
groups per 100 glucopyranose units), 0.8%, (2.86 COOH groups per 100
glucopyranose units) and 0.9% (3.57 COOH groups per 100 glucopyranose
units) carboxyl groups. To 5 g basal diet were added 1, 2 or 4 g
modified or control starch and this diet was fed to rats for 10 days.
Comparison of digestibilities showed an apparent decrease with
increasing oxidation but no effect on caloric values. No tissue damage

was associated with the diarrhoea and caecal enlargements observed in
groups receiving 2 g or 4 g starch in their feed. Liver, kidney, heart
and spleen weights were normal. Diarrhoea and caecal enlargement are
known to occur in rats fed starches of poor digestibility or other
carbohydrates (White, 1963).

The digestibility of oxidized starches at levels of 2.5, 6 and
43.2% calculated as chlorine, equivalent to a carboxyl content of
0.32% (1.15 COOH per 100 glucopyranose units), 0.9% (3.81 COOH per
100 glucopyranose units) or 1.46% (5.23 COOH per 100 glucopyranose
units), was studied in groups of six male and six female rats. The
animals were kept for seven days on 5 g basal diet and then given
either 1 g or 2 g starch supplements for 21 days. Poor weight gain
with diarrhoea were noted only with the highly oxidized material at
both dietary levels. One rat from each of the high dietary level
groups was examined. Marked caecal dilatation was seen only in animals
fed the heavily oxidized starch. It is to be noted that this very
highly oxidized starch is a commercially unacceptable product
(Whistler & Belfort, 1961).

TOXICOLOGICAL STUDIES

Rat

Starch treated at a level of 0.375% chlorine was fed to weanling
albino rats at 70% of their diet for 10 weeks with corn starch as
control. Feeding was either unrestricted or by paired-feeding
technique. No toxic effects were noted. No details of this work,
carried out in 1944-1945, were available (Garton Sons & Co. Ltd.,
1967).

A corn starch oxidized with 5.5% chlorine using sodium
hypochlorite (carboxyl content 0.90) was fed to groups of 15 male and
15 female rats at dietary levels of 0, 5, 10 or 25% for 90 days.
No adverse effects were noted regarding general health, growth, food
intake and efficiency, haematology, serum chemistry and urine
analyses. Diarrhoea was not observed. The amount of faeces dry
matter/unit food consumed was slightly increased at 25% of the
oxidized starch in both sexes. In this group the relative weight of
the caecum was slightly increased, the effect being significant in
females only. The other organ-to-body weight ratios showed slightly
increased adrenal weights of females on the test diets, but the
differences with the controls were not dose-related. No other gross
changes were observed at autopsy. The histopathological examination
has not yet been completed (Til et al., 1973).

Comments:

The digestibility of hypochlorite-oxidized starch has been
investigated in vivo and found to be similar to that of unmodified
starch. The longest of the short-term studies reported extended only
over 10 weeks and was carried out with an inadequately defined sample.
Studies with highly oxidized starches (1.4% or more carboxyl groups)
are not applicable because these products are not acceptable for food
additive use. Provided the chemical change is limited to the
introduction of no more than 1 carboxyl group per 25 anhydro-glucose
units, the biological effects of the modified starch do not appear to
be deleterious.

EVALUATION

Estimate of acceptable daily intake for man

Temporarily not limited.*

FURTHER WORK OR INFORMATION

Required

Results of histopathological studies by 1974.

REFERENCES

Booher, L. E., Behan, I. & McMeans, E. (1951) J. Nutr., 45, 75

Garton Sons & Co. Ltd. (1967) Unpublished report

Shuman, A. C. & Mertz, E. T. (1959) Unpublished report No. 4 of Shuman
Chemical Lab. Inc. to Corn Industries Research Foundation

Til, H. P. et al. (1973) Unpublished report No. R 4081 by Centraal
Instituut voor Voedingsonderzoek TNO

Tremoli?res, J., Bernier, J. J. & Lowy, R. (1959) Nutritio et Dieta,
1, 100

Whistler, R. L. & Belfort, A. M. (1961) Science, 133, 1599

White, T. A. (1963) Cereal Science Today, 8, 48



* See relevant paragraph in the seventeenth report, pages 10-11.


See Also:
Toxicological Abbreviations
Oxidized starches (FAO Nutrition Meetings Report Series 46a)
Oxidized starches (WHO Food Additives Series 1)
Oxidized starches (WHO Food Additives Series 6)

From http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v05je74.htm

also note that they were using much stronger concentrations of bleach than my 100 to 1 dilution of 5.5% bleach.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #622999 - 04/30/02 10:27 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Remember, rats aren't people (though some people are rats).  Regardless, I still believe that you will be fine dunking as you did.  It is nice to see somebody post with references for a change.  :smile:


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Offlinebaraka
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623114 - 04/30/02 12:53 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

My friend dunks every cake before the first flush and after all flushes and they never go contammed until 4-5th flush.

He boils up a big pot of tap water. Puts a dip down plate on top of it (too hold the cakes under). Lets it cool for half a day. Then throws the cakes in for 12 hours.

Dunking severly kicks ass and anyone growing cake wise needs to do it!.



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Offlineleonpron
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623339 - 04/30/02 05:04 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

AWESOME! I'm a believer! Now, how about adding Chlorox into the original PF-Tek formula? Should work, shouldn't it?


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OfflineAlien_Jesus
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623489 - 04/30/02 08:53 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

does bleach react with h202? would it be safe to use them in combination?


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InvisibleTCatz
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #623521 - 04/30/02 09:45 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

lots of good info there,
if it were a bit more up to date it would be better .

one of the toxilogical studies on the rats done was performed in 1944,
with only a 10 week study, but no long term effects studies done at all,
also there were/are no details available as to the type of procedures and controls or anything for that matter.
most of the info you provided is 40-56 years old...
back when cigarettes were not addictive nor contained any carcinogins

even back in the 70s as compared to todays tek-advancements theres a BIG gap.

More"current" "documented" studies would you help tremendously
with the nay sayers and your new found "tek"....don't you agree




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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: TCatz]
    #623821 - 05/01/02 08:01 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

newer studies would be great, but i haven't found any.
apparently once something is declared 'safe', there's very little incentive to do new studies unless there's a good reason.
presumably, though, the World Health Organisation would not be putting out info it knew was wrong.


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #624660 - 05/02/02 07:32 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #624669 - 05/02/02 07:57 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

dead contams shouldn't be a problem, but hidden ones in deep where the bleach doesn't reach could be.
i'd cut out as much of the infected area as possible, then try the bleach dip for 5 minutes. just 1 part bleach to 100 parts water, much stronger causes some damage.
you may have to repeat the bleach dip every day for a few days to get it all, if there's any hope at all.


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OfflineBarbi
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #624704 - 05/02/02 09:47 AM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Edited by mndfreeze


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Barbi]
    #627752 - 05/12/02 01:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

so, any report on how that turned out ?


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