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mycoguy
old hand

Registered: 03/25/04
Posts: 874
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycoguy]
#2751793 - 06/01/04 12:03 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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my other casings that were also sprayed with bleach ended up turning out fine. no deformities, so I don't really know what happened.
--------------------
(and no, that's not me in the avatar)
Yahoo! Pacific Northwest Mycology Group
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#2762566 - 06/04/04 08:06 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes beware of stealing Hippie du trois' "glory" He is riding on stamets work not his own. As for bleach it works.What the effects of long term ingestion of organochlorines in minute quantities are known,and usually negative. I offer a food grade sanitizer as substitute called peroxy acetic acid it decomposes into vinegar and oxygen and is effective as bleach with less overall toxicity to mycelium(less bluing)or....More work on sanitary procedure and avoid contaminations. It boils down to what your personaly willing to ingest to get high.For myself if I will only eat organic produce why would I personanly contaminate further a damaged cake in the hope of obtaining a few paltry mushrooms of unknown safety. Hippie du trois;should you show me the detailed analysis of a "bleached mushroom demonstrating safe quantities of organohalides within mushrooms grown with YOUR tek then I shall apologize for sounding an alarm and endorse your method. However should an analysis show novel organohalides you should do the right thing and retract your Safety guarantee.You Are NOT the FDA and have no qualifications but anecdotal info regarding the safety of introducing chlorine into the biosynthetic pathways.While I can cite literaly thousands of possible reactions and conditions in which cakes will form organochlorides rapidly during dunking So what have you got showing chlorine is not incorporating itself into the shroom? WR
-------------------- To old for this place
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homelessheathen
newbie

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 33
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
#2767830 - 06/05/04 11:55 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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A friend of mine once drained and refilled his pool with city tap water. When he checked the chlorine level to see how much he needed to add, it was already OFF THE SCALE! If you live in the woods, have your own well and never go into town, eat at a restaurant, or drink from a public water fountain, you can avoid bleach, but most of us live with it every day and are more or less noooooooooooorrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmaaaaallllll. harv
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micro
bunbun has a gungun


Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Whiterasta -- I completely agree with you -- Stamets did mention bleach long before anyone on the boards.
However, I do know a bit about peracetic acid (peroxyacetic acid) and I know that the health aspects are very little known. For example, the time it takes to break down is still debated by scientists. It is used, though, in many experiments, under the pretense that it breaks down completely within an hour or two.
However, when researchers use it, it is at a 35% concentration which is deadly (as opposed to highly toxic.) In lesser concentrations it is known to break down in solution within a matter of hours.
Just my 2c.
-- Micro
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
#2777215 - 06/09/04 07:21 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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In use as a sanitizing agent in breweries and wineries it (along with ozonation) is used in a lesser concentration for sure.My own experience with it is it is much better to work with than the nitric acid based product used in the milk industry or chlorine and iodophor which I have used in brewing(only on equipment)Of all of these peroxyacetic acid "seemed" the most benign and least persistant. Of course I am basing this soley on my own experience as a licensed pasteurizer, homebrew instructor/winemaker and previous work as an R/D chemist.Aside from 35% H2O2 the next choice for me would be peroxyacetic acid.But as long as I can get 35% H2O2 it will be all I need, along with a little decent sterile technique  WR
-------------------- To old for this place
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micro
bunbun has a gungun


Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
#2780926 - 06/10/04 09:35 AM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey -- two each his own. I'm gonna keep using bleach just to spite you. TTFN -- I'm going for a swim in my swimming pool (with out the waterproof radioactive-biohazard suit.)
-- Micro
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free
(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
#2782376 - 06/10/04 03:31 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- To old for this place
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Hippie3
mycotopiate


Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
#2785450 - 06/11/04 03:09 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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to my knowledge stamets NEVER used bleach on live mycellia so i'm riding on no one but my own work. and i daresay i'll not be wasting my time trying to prove anything to mr. rasta esp. a negative proposition like "what have you got showing chlorine is not incorporating itself into the shroom?" what you think or say have pretty little significance because the tek's already out and hundreds are using it with good results so i'd say it's pretty much here to stay even without your approval.
-------------------- Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#2786054 - 06/11/04 07:06 PM (20 years, 8 months ago) |
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Er....uh... OOOKAYFINE
But you see for a process or product to be food grade it must be tested for impurities.Especially new processes which can introduce potentialy harmful byproducts into the end product.I would take small pride in authoring a process which has a HIGH risk of producing organochlorides which are known CONTAMINANTS in food products.Will you still be as sure and proud if there are liver/kidney problems with using bleached fungi?
WR
P.S. Hippie if you can show where bleach is used on commercial edible fungi mycelia I will be a believer...however if this were as safe and effective as you say wouldn't bleach dunking spawn be an industry standard by now? Did you give any thought as to the many possible reasons commercial growers do not use chlorine on their spawn or on any stage save crude (and flawed) pasteurizations or for full scale disinfection of surfaces?
-------------------- To old for this place
Edited by whiterasta (06/11/04 09:29 PM)
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oreganojoe
Stranger

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 21
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#2794151 - 06/15/04 06:56 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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No offense Whiterasta, but lighten up. I'm compelled to think time could be better spent worrying about the contaminated atmosphere we breath, rather than the minute possibility that a molecule of chlorine might enter my highly acidic digestive tract. I'll let you know in 40 or more years how the trace chlorine from city drinking water affects me though. You go hip, Joe
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LoverOfMana
Hmm

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 109
Last seen: 20 years, 3 days
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: oreganojoe]
#2794466 - 06/15/04 09:12 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Honestly, I don't think we should be asking WR to lighten up. WR is just providing information and asking questions which keeps people in check, and personally I appreciate that. Whether WR's concerns are minute or not, it gives us two sides to consider when thinking of using this bleach tek. Again, if we didn't have people like WR out there questioning things, and if everyone just lightened up, who knows what kind of shit we could be doing to our bodies. I say, "Keep it up WR!" you're helping us all make more informed decisions.
lom
-------------------- "Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes." -Abraham Lincoln
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Hippie3
mycotopiate


Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
#2798131 - 06/16/04 06:40 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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if you read this thread you would find, in the earlier pages, references for using bleach on edible crops approved by the FDA so your concern has already been addressed.
-------------------- Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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Hippie3
mycotopiate


Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: micro]
#2798140 - 06/16/04 06:44 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said: Whiterasta -- I completely agree with you -- Stamets did mention bleach long before anyone on the boards. -- Micro
ONLY for pasturization and treating blotch, not for this use. it's not like stamets invented bleach either you know... but I am the FIRST to use it on live mycellia so give the devil his due.
-------------------- Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#2798323 - 06/16/04 08:15 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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 Like a wall...adding halogens to live myc is a negative.Food stuffs are washed with bleach but no food item has it incorporated into it's growth.No commercial fungus farmers use it on their spawn.As I said I would not be so quick to give this "FDA" approval until it is proven there are no organohalides taken into the myc.It may well be a safe tek but until a G/C/M/S proves it I would be leery.If someone were well connected and had the resources and wished to lay claim to a safe technique. A simple G/C/M/S would determine the presence of contaminants from chlorine quite easily.If not one would simply stand on the number of people who they've had guinea pig the process. It is really quite simple if you create a tek using unorthodox materials or orthodox materials in a novel way.If the products or tek is not a standard practice for food grade items then some testing assurance is in order before it is pronounced "safe".This "tek"has never seen a lab only guinea pigs.There has been NO analysis of the fruit for residual contamination, only the classic cop out of " hundreds of people have tried it" well hundreds of people have tried many things which have proven harmfull. I merely pass along a few questions about the overrall "tek" and it's possible safety or danger from organohalides. I am sure you well know that bleach forms Dioxin in the presence of complex organics. WR
-------------------- To old for this place
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OldSpice
Geritol Breath...


Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 59,080
Loc: Crankytown, Texas
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#2803232 - 06/17/04 05:46 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Most these fucks would enjoy arguing with inatimate objects... Know what i mean Vern
-------------------- So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty
You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office
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whiterasta
Day careobserver

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: OldSpice]
#2803315 - 06/17/04 06:24 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's "inanimate" and it certainly feels that way with some folks  WR
-------------------- To old for this place
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OldSpice
Geritol Breath...


Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 59,080
Loc: Crankytown, Texas
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
#2803452 - 06/17/04 07:22 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Spealing Nazi...
-------------------- So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty
You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office
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Hippie3
mycotopiate


Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: OldSpice]
#2803461 - 06/17/04 07:26 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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you nailed it right, this fool has been dogging me for over a month now ever since i bounced his ass out of 'topia for being a rude jerk. sent me several PMs here too thinks he's going to trim me to size, lol trim this .!.,
-------------------- Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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Hippie3
mycotopiate


Registered: 11/06/99
Posts: 3,090
Loc: mycotopia.net
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: whiterasta]
#2803468 - 06/17/04 07:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Food stuffs are washed with bleach"
now reconcile that statement
with this one-
"bleach forms Dioxin in the presence of complex organics."
the FDA seems to think differently eh ?
-------------------- Admin @ mycotopia.net
Mycotopia
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OldSpice
Geritol Breath...


Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 59,080
Loc: Crankytown, Texas
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
#2803478 - 06/17/04 07:35 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Damn your site looks a lot better Hippie
-------------------- So hard to be ....WDWGFH?
Texas is humongus compared to France
Our Gair, who art in Texas,
Paw Paw be thy Name....
My friends are thirsty
You never see a motorcycle parked outside a Psychiatrist office
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