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InvisibleHippie3
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Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK
    #611022 - 04/17/02 05:35 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Recently, I've been experimenting with using the world's greatest disinfectant, sodium hypochloride, aka common household chlorine bleach as an additive to my dunk water.
my intention of course is to kill all contaminants while leaving the mycellia unharmed, and so far it appears to have worked.
i took 25 post-2nd flush cakes of south americans done pf style and dunked them 24 hours in a bleach solution.
i used chlorox ultra, which is rated at 6% sodium hypochloride, and diluted it 100:1 water:bleach.
i dunked each cake individually in their own jars, under refridgeration for 24 hours.
it has now been nearly 48 hours after ending the dunk, and 72 hours from 1st exposure, and there appear to be no ill effects of any kind, the cakes are nice and white and still breathing.
i also have another cake that was badly contam'd that i cut out the infection and now have soaking in a double-strength bleach dunk, that cake has pins on it so it will be interesting to see how that goes.
anyway, i'm curious to hear what you advanced cultivators think of my line of research.
we have a few threads discusing this now at mycotopia if you're interested, and i'll be happy to answer any questions.
very soon i plan to combine this bleach dunk with my skim milk dunk, in an attempt to feed the cakes in a sterile manner.
any input is welcome.
peace,
hip


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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611031 - 04/17/02 05:50 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Hmmmmmmmm I'm not sure if I'd want to consume anything that has been grown on something dunked in bleach.

Good luck



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OfflineDinoMyc
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #611034 - 04/17/02 05:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

do you drink tap water in an industrialized country? or perhaps anything prepared with tap water?
its surprisingly purvasive..


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InvisibleDreaMaTrix
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DinoMyc]
    #611049 - 04/17/02 06:07 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

>do you drink tap water in an industrialized country? or perhaps anything prepared with tap water?

No, I have a filter on m incoming water supply which filters any metals or chemicals (apparently). I also have a natural spring where I live.

I'm sure tap water does not have the same quantities of sodium hypochloride as this tek, 6% @ 1:100, hmmm.
Chlorine in tap wate isn't it?
Who's to say the fruitbodies aren't 'sucking up' this stuff and concentrating it, just seems 'not' the sort of thing I'd try. Good luck with it anyway.



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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #611066 - 04/17/02 06:29 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

yup, same stuff as used in water purification plants worldwide, very safe and highly effective. nasa even used it during apollo missions to prevent terrestrial organisms from contaminating the moon.
here's some info:
Quote:
Why life's a bleach
(The Sodium Hypochlorite Story)
By Dr. John Fletcher and Don Ciancone*

*Colgate-Palmolive Canada Inc.

Sodium hypochlorite, the active ingredient in household bleach, was discovered by the French chemist Berthollet, in Javel on the outskirts of Paris, in 1787. Its ability to effectively whiten textiles was quickly discovered and put to commercial use with great success. By the end of the nineteenth century, after Louis Pasteur had discovered sodium hypochlorite's potent effectiveness against disease-causing bacteria, it became widely used as a disinfectant. Studies by numerous independent research institutes have supported the high level of disinfection effectiveness of sodium hypochlorite. It is recognized as having an unsurpassed disinfection spectrum.

Sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl, is manufactured by the reaction of molecular chlorine with sodium hydroxide and water. A small excess of sodium hydroxide is required to maintain the pH between 11 and 13 to minimize decomposition. Household bleaches usually contain 3% to 6% NaOCl whereas bleaches for Industrial & Institutional (I&I) applications are typically 10% - 12% active.

Sodium hypochlorite disproportionates spontaneously to chloride and chlorate. This disproportionation is accelerated by ionic strength, temperature and concentration of the bleach. Metals such as copper, nickel and cobalt catalyze the decomposition of sodium hypochlorite.

Every day, millions of households throughout the world rely on sodium hypochlorite bleach for their disinfection, deodorizing and cleaning needs. The world market for sodium hypochlorite bleach, marketed to the consumer, is in excess of 4,000,000 tons. This does not include the large quantities used, particularly in North America, for industrial uses such as waste water treatment and drinking water disinfection.

Sodium hypochlorite solutions are often mistakenly referred to as "chlorine bleach". This arises because of the use of chlorine in its manufacture. However, this is truly a misnomer as "chlorine" gas is not present in the product nor is it involved in the product's mode of action.

Its Many Uses and Benefits

Sodium hypochlorite has long been recognized as having outstanding disinfection properties. It has been proven by the Institute Pasteur in Paris to be the most effective disinfectant against all known pathogenic bacteria, fungi and viruses.

In recent years, the incidence of infection among certain populations has increased, in part because of less attention to basic hygiene, wider social interaction and increasing resistance of bacteria to antibiotics. When used as part of a daily hygiene regimen, sodium hypochlorite bleach can be effective in preventing infections by eliminating surface germs, bacteria and viruses that cause them.

It is widely used in homes, schools, hospitals, swimming pools, drinking water supplies, and for disinfecting hard surfaces and surgical instruments. Its low cost and ready availability makes it an invaluable weapon for the maintenance of human health and proper preventative hygiene, throughout the world. This is particularly so in the developing world where it is a major contributor in the efforts to stem the debilitating consequences of cholera, dysentery, typhoid and other waterborne biotic diseases. In recent outbreaks of cholera in Latin America and the Caribbean Islands, sodium hypochlorite was an effective deterrent that minimized morbidity and mortality, as was reported at a symposium on tropical diseases conducted under the aegis of the Pasteur Institute.

Sodium hypochlorite also has an important public health role in the developed world. There is increasing consumer awareness and concern that the home can be a haven for disease-causing organisms, such as salmonella and E. Coli. Following good hygiene practices and using hypochlorite bleach has been shown to be the most effective means of minimizing these dangers. It is also very efficacious for the removal of mold and mildew.

In hospitals and other health care facilities bleach is used to disinfect surfaces against HIV, the virus responsible for the transmission of AIDS, and Hepatitis B. In fact, many authorities, such as the Ontario Ministry of Health, specifically advocate such practices.

It has been used by NASA in the United States during the Apollo program to assure destruction of any potentially harmful organisms introduced from space missions.

Throughout the world sodium hypochlorite is used as a laundry whitener, stain remover and sanitizer both for consumer, as well as institutional laundry. It can be safely used on many washable, colourfast fabrics including cotton, polyester, nylon, acetate, linen, rayon and permanent press. It is highly effective at removing a wide range of stains and soils not totally removed by laundry detergents alone, e.g. blood, body soil, coffee, grass, mustard, red wine, etc. It provides a significant boost to the whitening and cleaning power of laundry detergents even in cold or hard water and its unique disinfecting properties assures sanitization, which is of particular importance in hospital linens for example, to reduce the possible transmission of disease.

For industrial and institutional applications the versatility and usefulness of sodium hypochlorite include:

It is used extensively in the area of water treatment to disinfect municipal drinking water and by those taking drinking water from wells.
It controls algae in open reservoirs.
It remains as one of the most effective, and certainly the most cost-effective means of contolling the zebra mussel population, the presence of which is causing serious problems for industry and the ecosystem throughout North America.
It is widely used for swimming pool water disinfection, both as a daily regimen and as a shock treatment.
It is used to treat sewage to reduce odours and increase digesting efficiency.
Chemical toilets, industrial wastes for odour control.
Cyanide waste treatment in metal finishing.
Treatment for cyanide effluent in gold mining.
Air scrubbing.
Food processing: dairy equipment sanitizing, fruit and vegetable processing, mushroom production, hog, beef and poultry production, maple syrup production, fish processing.
Precious metal recovery.
Cooling water and boiler water treatment to prevent fouling.

Human and Environmental Safety

During the last few years there has been a concerted effort to investigate and assess the human and environmental safety aspects of sodium hypochlorite. An extensive review of the literature has been undertaken by many investigators and the conclusions drawn are that sodium hypochlorite is safe for humans and the environment.

Depending on the concentration involved, hypochlorite solutions can be classified as either irritant or corrosive and appropriate precautions should be taken when using the product, carefully reading the label, adhering to cautionary warnings and following usage directions. Particular attention must be paid to not mixing with other products, such as toilet bowl cleaners, rust removers, ammonia or acids.

Although skin and mucous membrane irritation can occur when the exposure concentration is greater than 5%, these effects are reversible. The overall safety of sodium hypochlorite is further documented by reports from poison control centres in North America and Europe which show no major health effects after unintentional ingestion or skin contact. The unpleasant taste of the product prevents unintentional ingestion of significant quantities and thereby limits the extent of injuries.

It is documented that sodium hypochlorite is not a mutagen, carcinogen, teratogen or skin sensitizer. Indeed, in the context of its use in drinking water, IARC (the International Agency for Research on Cancer) has concluded that chlorinated drinking water is not a "classifiable" human carcinogen.

Under normal household use, sodium hypochlorite is broken down in the environment into table salt, oxygen and water. Other substances may be formed, to a small extent. These by-products are most often referred to as AOX (adsorbable organic halides). A great many studies have been made to provide a risk assessment of household bleach in terms of its formation of AOX.

The conclusions drawn were:

the amount of AOX is very small both in absolute terms and relative to other human activities and natural sources,
the majority of these AOX are easily degradable,
the AOXs formed are primarily water soluble and not bio-accumulative.
highly chlorinated species, such as dioxins, are not formed.
The conclusion of the Swedish Environmental Research Institute was that sodium hypochlorite "does most probably not create environmental problems when used in the right manner and in recommended quantities".

Conclusion

Sodium hypochlorite has a long history of safe use in homes, hospitals and schools, and it is widely available at low cost to consumers. It is highly beneficial to basic hygiene and good health due to its disinfecting and sanitizing qualities. It kills all known germs and a wider range of bacteria than other disinfectants, and it helps to prevent the spread of diseases through water and surfaces.


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from http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=question189.htm&url=http://www.esemag.com/0596/bleach.html


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: DreaMaTrix]
    #611068 - 04/17/02 06:33 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I could be wrong here, but I'd wager that there isn't much sodium hypochlorite in tap water.

True, it may have been used to treat the water, but the very act of TREATING with hypochlorite changes some amount [?most] of the hypochlorite. Meaning the 'bleach' that was originally put into the treatment plant will have interacted with any organic compounds that were around, making chlorinated organic compounds. These compounds are formed when cooking your food with treated water as well. They have a different chemistry to them than the bleach from whence they came.

Example--if you put a small amount [the amount you'd use in a swimming pool] of sodium hypochlorite in absolute distilled water and put that in your eyes, it would NOT sting! It's only after the chlorine has combined with the piss and sweat and other organics in a pool that the molecules that 'sting' are created.

Not a whole lot to do with the topic, but what else is new.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Suntzu]
    #611596 - 04/18/02 04:57 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

very true.
much like peroxide, bleach is quickly broken down into other compounds, notably table salt and water and oxygen.
and my bleach-dunked cakes are whitening up nicely now,
it's quite obvious that no damage was done by the prolonged exposure to bleach.
the implications of this are huge, as bleach is far superior to peroxide as a disinfectant.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Suntzu]
    #611604 - 04/18/02 05:02 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Mushrooms have this strange capability to transform bleach into Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCB's), that accumulate in fruitbodies and are cancerogenic.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #611626 - 04/18/02 05:53 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

prove what you say.
i want to see evidence for that claim.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611629 - 04/18/02 05:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I cannot prove it, I will give you exact reference later when I get home from work. I'm not really sure but I think I read it in Growing gourmet and medicinal mushrooms by Stamets. He has a paragraph about your method.

However, this thing could be true only for some mushrooms. I would just be cautious. There should be a simple test for PCB's since it's a common water pollutant.


Edited by zeronio (04/18/02 06:01 AM)


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #611643 - 04/18/02 06:17 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i've been searching for info on this, and the only thing i found was that certain lignin-eating shroom species were being used to clean up dioxin contams.
prolly where someone got that, but cubies aren't lignin-eating.
they eat dung, not wood.
i did find this about chlorine:
"Trihalomethanes (THMs) are organic chemicals that may form when chlorine is used to treat water supplies that contain humic compounds. Humic compounds form as a part of the decomposition of organic materials such as leaves, grass, wood or animal wastes. Because THMs are very seldom associated with groundwater, they are primarily a concern where surface water supplies are used. Lifetime consumption of water supplies with THMs at a level greater than 0.10 milligrams per liter is considered by the Environmental Protection Agency to be a potential cause of cancer. THMs can be removed from drinking water through use of an activated carbon filter."
so perhaps one should avoid bleach if using wood-products, compost or dung,
but for pf style cakes containing only rice & vermiculite, it should be perfectly safe.


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/18/02 07:18 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611663 - 04/18/02 07:16 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.cqs.com/edioxin.htm
....
It has been a hazard downstream of paper mills (where chlorine bleach combines with natural organics in wood pulp and produces dioxin).
....
Avoid all organic chemicals that have "chloro" as part of their names (such as the wood preservative pentachlorophenol, which is probably the most dioxin-contaminated household chemical). Avoid chlorine bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and products containing it. (Use oxygen bleach instead). Use unbleached paper products.
...


I'm sorrry for your shrooms... Maybe you can give them to your enemies!


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #611665 - 04/18/02 07:24 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

lol
that info does nothing to bolster your case.
it also says i shouldn't eat beef, pork, fish, milk, ice cream, etc.
everyone knows dioxins are harmful,
but where does it show that household bleach turns into dioxins in the shrooms ?
we're not using any wood-byproducts here,
just rice and vermiculite.
ok, i've been doing alot more reading on this matter, and there seems to be some concern about the potential interaction of bleach with wood and wood-byproducts, as well as with decayed organic matter such as leaves, twigs, even dung.
it seems that dioxins can form, posing a potential health hazard.
so if you intend to try bleach as a disinfectant dunk, etc.
don't combine it with any wood/dung/etc.
that basically means we're ok with straight pf cakes, and vermiculite, but that's about it


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/18/02 07:41 AM)


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Offlineduss69
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #611746 - 04/18/02 10:20 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Cool but not very new in my opinion....
Chlorinated wated is widely used for strerility purpose. I remember that stamets talks about using slightly chlorinated water (in TMC).
My bro who's studying DNA of plants, uses to soak rare seeds in chlorinated water to kill any competitor.It works wonder, with no damage to the seeds.
If mycelium can survive a heavy H2O2 bath, why not a slightly chlorinated one??
The point is to be sure that there can't be any health problems later....



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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: duss69]
    #611805 - 04/18/02 12:17 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

The only thing I remember off the top of my head is that TMC mentions using slightly chlorinated water (something in the ppm range) when watering beds with mature shrooms to help prevent bacterial blotch and related contams which form on wet mature caps.

On the other hand, I haven't done any research whatsoever. So I don't know if the problem is only from bleach contacting wood or compost as you say it hippie. It sounds more like what you are saying is decaying organic material which is bad. BR which has been partially digested by a fungus sounds like decaying organic material to me. Just as much as composted leaves, dung or wood for that matter. It's all just a matter of different ratios of the same nutrients being consumed by similar organisms, right?

On the other hand, one must consider the relatively small amounts of these mushrooms that we consume. Even the most hardcore of us can't trip more than once a week for extended periods of time. Eating from 2-5 grams each time. Even if the chems are concentrated in the shrooms, I wonder if it's possible to reach harmful levels, given the small amounts of shrooms we consume.

How about somebody doing the worst case scenario math. Assume all the bleach in hips 6% 1:100 solution is converted to nasty chems, and assume that most of these end up in the fruits. Then compare that to danger levels of the chems. This truly would be worst case scenario because I imagine most of the harmful chems would be drained with the solution, a good bit of those remaining would remain on the cake, not the fruit. But it would give you an idea of how bad it could be.


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycofile]
    #612091 - 04/18/02 06:01 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Agree 100% Insomnia;
GGMM 2nd ed. has a specific section called 'bleach bath method' for pastuerizing bulk subs.  I don't know the page number or anything, but I specifically remember it.  It's right next to the 'hydrated lime bath' method, and another method that involves letting the bulk substrate ferment in its own juices for a few days.
So besides the bleach, it looks like there are a couple more ideas you can call your own :smile: 


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: mycofile]
    #612136 - 04/18/02 07:04 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I think your body holds PCB's in lipids for a while and will release them if you start to lose weight and is also concentrated in the breast milk of women, so it would most likely be a problem even in small amounts.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: ParticleMan]
    #612641 - 04/19/02 06:09 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

but there's a big difference between huge paper mills processing millions of pounds of wood pulp with tens of thousands of gallons of bleach under industrial conditions and what i'm talking about.
if even stamets talks about a bleach bath, then where's the harm ?
so far i haven't seen one shred of evidence to support the idea that shrooms convert bleach into pcb's and concentrate them in their tissues, as claimed.
the only thing i've found is the dioxin scare about the paper mills out west, and even then if you lived downstream and drank their contaminated water your whole life, you'd still have only a slight chance to get cancer.
which still has nothing to do with dunking cakes in a dilute bleach solution to disinfect them.
and suntzu, i only take credit for what i do.
no harm in that.
and btw, my bleach-dunked cakes are still thriving.
and mycofile, a 100:1 dilution of standard bottled bleach like i used works out to about 500 ppm.


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Edited by Hippie3 (04/19/02 06:37 AM)


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: Hippie3]
    #612696 - 04/19/02 09:06 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't find the reference... I got probably some things mixed up.
Dioxin is produced when bleach comes in contact with organic matter and some mushrooms tend to concentrate pollutants like heavy metals from substrate -> that's why I thought that I read somewhere that mushrooms collect dioxin from substrate.

Anyway I agree that quantities ingested are so small that even if that was true, dioxin levels would be harmless.

So... good luck and buon apetito!


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Re: Hip's Bleach Experiment/TEK [Re: zeronio]
    #612712 - 04/19/02 09:42 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

some species of shrooms, notably a few wood-eating species do take in dioxin, they're being used to clean up dioxin contams by the epa.
but not cubies, which don't eat wood.
i've been digging all over the web now for a couple days and i cannot find one single piece of documentation showing any real risk for the procedure i used.
in fact, the vast majority of references say how safe it is, with mostly fringe groups like greenpeace claiming it's harmful.
and even they have to admit that dioxin is everywhere already, in our food and water, which we consume far more of on a daily basis than we could possibly get from years of eating shrooms.
this tek is a keeper, folks.
sure, don't do it if you're worried.
i'm not trying to twist anyone's arm on the issue.
but i'm satisfied that it's safe,
esp. now that i know even stamets has tested it.
and the next time i see green mold, i'm hitting it with bleach instead of peroxide.
and my milk-dunk/bleach wash experiment kicks off today,
with 18 sa cakes on their way to 3rd flush,
i'll let you know how it grows.



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