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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit...
    #6109896 - 09/28/06 12:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

fuck the PATRIOT act...if anyone was looking for a cutoff point where the republic became the empire..this is prolly it...the provisions dealing with tribunals might seem barely acceptable..but most of these prisoners (440/450 at guantanamo) will never get a tribunal...

it doesnt matter whether or not you break the law anymore..you will be punished anyway...

Quote:

House Approves Bill on Detainees
253 to 168 Vote Backs Bush on Prosecution Of Terrorism Suspects

By Charles Babington
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 28, 2006; A01

The House approved an administration-backed system of questioning and prosecuting terrorism suspects yesterday, setting clearer limits on CIA interrogation techniques but denying access to courts for detainees seeking to challenge their imprisonment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and elsewhere.

The 253 to 168 vote was a victory for President Bush and fellow Republicans. Bush had yielded some ground during weeks of negotiations, but he fully embraced the language that the House approved with support from 34 Democrats and all but seven Republicans.

Senators also began debating the measure yesterday and defeated, along party lines, a Democratic-sponsored amendment that would have expanded detainees' legal rights. Senators predicted that their chamber will approve the legislation today, which would enable Bush to hold a signing ceremony on a high-profile and intensely debated bill about a month before the Nov. 7 elections.

Barring a last-minute snag, the House and Senate action will conclude three months of debate that began in late June, after the Supreme Court struck down the military commissions Bush had established to try people suspected of being members of al-Qaeda. Designated as enemy combatants, such suspects enjoy fewer rights than prisoners of war, and much of the congressional debate centered on which, if any, rudimentary legal rights should apply to them.

The administration was also eager to protect CIA officers from possible prosecution or from lawsuits stemming from their use of aggressive interrogation techniques such as extended sleep deprivation, hypothermia and "waterboarding," which simulates drowning.

Bush is scheduled to meet with GOP senators in the Capitol this morning for a final pep rally before the measure's expected passage. Republicans hope to campaign on the bill as proof of their party's tough stand against terrorists. Many congressional Democrats decided to swallow their misgivings and vote for the bill to avoid being portrayed as less than vigilant against suspects captured in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Thirty-four Democrats joined 219 Republicans in supporting the legislation.

"It is outrageous that House Democrats, at the urging of their leaders, continue to oppose giving President Bush the tools he needs to protect our country," said House Majority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio).

Such comments infuriated Democrats, who said they stand second to no one in fighting terrorists but fear the United States is abandoning fundamental principles of fairness. The bill "is really more about who we are as a people than it is about those who seek to harm us," said House Minority Whip Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.). "Defending America requires us to marshal the full range of our power: diplomatic and military, economic and moral. And when our moral standing is eroded, our international credibility is diminished as well."

After the June 29 Supreme Court ruling, the White House proposed legislation to address the high court's criticisms and still embrace much of its military commission setup and interrogation practices. But a trio of Republican senators forced Bush to modify several points.

The compromise legislation does not seek to narrow U.S. obligations under the Geneva Conventions in the treatment of prisoners, as Bush had hoped. But it would give the executive branch substantial leeway in deciding how to comply with treaty obligations in actions that fall short of "grave breaches" of the conventions.

It would bar military commissions from considering testimony obtained through interrogation techniques that involve "cruel, unusual or inhumane treatment or punishment," which is proscribed by the 5th, 8th and 14th amendments to the U.S. Constitution. But the bar would be retroactive only to Dec. 30, 2005, when Congress adopted the Detainee Treatment Act, sponsored by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), to protect CIA operatives from being prosecuted over interrogation tactics used before then.

Yesterday, Sen. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.) condemned the loophole, accusing administration officials of trying "to legitimize the mistreatment of detainees and to undermine some of the cornerstone principles of our legal system."

But GOP sponsors said the language is essential to protect well-intentioned CIA officers from vague guidelines. "The Constitution says we will provide for the common defense, not provide for the criminal defense" of enemy combatants, Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Tex.) said during a rare instance in which both houses debated the same legislation simultaneously.

Some of the fiercest debates focused on whether foreign terrorism suspects should have access to U.S. courts for challenging the legality of their detention, a right known as habeas corpus.

House Republicans blocked Democrats from offering amendments, including one that would have extended the habeas corpus right to detainees. House Judiciary Committee Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.) said terrorism suspects have enough rights without habeas corpus, including the right to a lawyer, to be presumed innocent, to cross-examine witnesses and to collect evidence. "Let's bring justice before the eyes of the children and widows of Sept. 11," he implored on the House floor.

But Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) said: "This is how a nation loses its moral compass, its identity, its values and, eventually, its freedom. . . . We rebelled against King George III for less restrictions on liberty than this." Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) said the habeas corpus right is so fundamental that it "is un-American" to deny it to detainees held by U.S. forces.

The Senate will vote today on an amendment to grant the habeas corpus right to detainees. Supporters say the Supreme Court would rule the legislation unconstitutional without a habeas corpus provision, but opponents say the House would balk at the amendment.

The legislation loosely defines "cruel or inhuman treatment" of detainees, which would constitute a war crime. The administration said the term should apply to techniques resulting in "severe" physical or mental pain, but lawmakers set the standard at "serious." The abused detainee's symptoms would have to include "serious and non-transitory mental harm, which need not be prolonged."

For lesser offenses barred by the Geneva Conventions -- those falling between cruelty and minor abuse -- the legislation would authorize the president to interpret "the meaning and application" of relevant provisions of the Geneva Conventions. The administration's language would have to be published rather than provided in secret to some lawmakers.

House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) praised the legislation, saying Americans should not give foreigners suspected of being enemy combatants the rights that U.S. citizens enjoy. "The Global War on Terror is different from any war we have ever known," he said in a statement. "As a country we must understand that adaptation to these new situations is critical in order to achieve victory over those who seek to hurt us as a nation."

But the Center for Constitutional Rights condemned the bill, saying it would "authorize the indefinite detention of non-citizens without access to courts -- even if they are not charged with any crime."




--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (09/28/06 01:05 AM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6110971 - 09/28/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was surprised to see it passed by congress. The civilized world definitely took a step backwards with that one.

The other thing people all fired up to torture POWs or suspected terrorists, aren't seeing is the hypocrisy. The U.S. tries to present the image that it is the global leader in protecting and defending human rights around the world and from the  cruel and inhumane treatment of their governments.

Then it passes this law that says they can torture anyone they feel like torturing and its legal. :wtf:

Where is the line that determines who is considered the enemy that can be taken prisoner on the war on terror. Bush said that you are either with us or against us. Is anyone who is not with Bush on this war, or who gets in his way, a suspect that can be detained?

What about the "war" on drugs? How long will it be before any of you are detained and are allowed to be tortured to give up the name of your suppliers, before you even received a trial? Will that be the case 10- 20 years from now, under the propaganda that they are protecting the people from the evil dealers getting our kids on drugs. (Funny when I keep hearing that the CIA is the greatest source of running drugs into the U.S.)

Is anyone looking at the BIG Picture of wear these baby steps are taking us to?

One may say to themselves, "I support all of Bushes wars so I have nothing to worry about."

Thats just it. As long as we support all of Bushes wars, we have nothing to worry about. (smells like a Dictator Regime)

See how easy it is in time for them to get support doing pretty much any thing up the road after the brainwashing through fear is accomplished.

What will the next wars be against? How long before the next one is something you believe you should have the freedom and right too.

Others may sit back and say, "Well Bush only has 2 more years and he can't do that much more in that time. The laws he moves to get passed now, will remain.

There is also concern that even if the public thinks the Dems are a shoe in in the next election, it doesn't matter if the elections are rigged through the Diebold machines, which experts say can be hacked with a clothes pin in 60 seconds, or programmed ahead of time, to just throw the two Key states of Ohio and Florida to flip the votes.

How many of you remember the problem in Florida in Bushes first election that swung it in favor of Bush (after the "recount") when before Gore had it? And in the second election, the exit polls didn't match the machine results in Ohio. Exists polls gave it to Gore and there were complaints of the machines not registering the person they voted for.

I was in Florida for the second one, and when I plugged in Nader, Bush came up on my review your vote screen. I canceled it out, re-entered Nader and then his name came up. Later when I watched the fiasco in Ohio causing the delay and hearing the complaints, I was like, "Hey, that happened to me in Florida but I was able to correct it, because I caught it."

Doesn't it bother anyone that they remove the paper receipt in those things to leave no trail of tampering? Why isn't there  paper in the printers? Who can answer that?

This knew torture law is nothing more then legalized SADISM, to me. It's opened the door to who knows who else will be able to be legally tortured in the future. 

Protests against it all?:lol: They are working the fear angle there too and soon people will stop protesting when they start using those microwave cook your ass lazers that were approved for experimenting on citizens with in "crowd control" situations , before they can use them in war. More sadistic shit.

And the wrap up is that Bush's name is on the membership list of the Skulls and Cross Bones charter, aka Satanic cult, and hardly anyone  asks why our president would belong to such a cult?

I know I know, "it's a privileged kids fraternal club that hosts tea and crumpets socials". :rolleyes:



:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleStroFun
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Registered: 07/11/06
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6110987 - 09/28/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

sad

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6111277 - 09/28/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This opens Pandora's box.
Here in Germany it is strictly forbidden for everyone to torture another, even if a ghost-train filled with toxic chemicals, with a digital lock runs towards a million people city and the police would have caught the 'terrorist' and their highest wish (of course) would be to stop the train by the digital code (like a bomb), it is forbidden for them to use ANY kind of torture.
THAT is essential for a (self-proclaimed) civilized society.

Concentration camps in Guantanamo, (formerly secret, now legal) torture prisons in East-Europe... damned shit. Stop this power- and warmongers !

:frown:

Ps: And did you know 'Homeland Security' is the exact translated word for the former East-German security-service, called "Staats-Sicherheit" in short "Stasi"... They worked like the Nazi "SS".
What a shame...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (09/28/06 12:45 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
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Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6111532 - 09/28/06 01:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The other thing people all fired up to torture POWs or suspected terrorists, aren't seeing is the hypocrisy. The U.S. tries to present the image that it is the global leader in protecting and defending human rights around the world and from the cruel and inhumane treatment of their governments.

Then it passes this law that says they can torture anyone they feel like torturing and its legal. :wtf:




the US doesnt really claim to be a champion of human rights around the world.. they only made that claim as long as they could fault the soviet union for persuing the exact same policy as this bill...and the new law makes king georges' blather about spreading freedom and democracy sounds exactly like blather from the soviets about "liberating the world from colonialism"..which as we all know meant gitmoizing their political opponents in siberia...

but iraq has shown that we cannot make the world into our own eastern europe and supress dissent..er uh terrorism..as such...this point is admittedly moot..but the effect of allowing the CIA to terrorize the populations of other countries will result in retaliatory actions that will necessarily threaten US national security.. which the repugnicans will in turn use to push increasingly repressive legislation.. which will lead to more hostility.. etc..etc...its not a vicious circle.. its a downward spiral...

the blame..however..lies not with the repugnicans but with the senate democrats...who have cravenly chosen politics over principle...i wont be turning into a neocon anytime soon..but i no longer have any respect for the democratic party...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6112188 - 09/28/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

THAT is essential for a (self-proclaimed) civilized society.

no it isn't. there is nothing wrong whatsoever with torturing someone into talking if it is known that they have information such as that. the issue is... how do you know if someone isn't talking because they don't want to, or isn't talking because they don't know? torturing someone for information they do not have is a grave injustice.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6112232 - 09/28/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
This opens Pandora's box.
Here in Germany it is strictly forbidden for everyone to torture another, even if a ghost-train filled with toxic chemicals, with a digital lock runs towards a million people city and the police would have caught the 'terrorist' and their highest wish (of course) would be to stop the train by the digital code (like a bomb), it is forbidden for them to use ANY kind of torture.
THAT is essential for a (self-proclaimed) civilized society.




No, that is essential for a gang of suicidal retards. What if you're in that city? If you wouldn't change your mind, then, you are beyond all rational thought and sense of self preservation. And compassion. Don't they put you in jail for saying the holocaust is a lie there? Maybe Germany needs strange laws to keep it's clearly deranged people in line. Here, we don't need such absolutes. Because we're normal.
Quote:


Concentration camps in Guantanamo, (formerly secret, now legal) torture prisons in East-Europe... damned shit. Stop this power- and warmongers !




No
Quote:





Ps: And did you know 'Homeland Security' is the exact translated word for the former East-German security-service, called "Staats-Sicherheit" in short "Stasi"... They worked like the Nazi "SS".
What a shame...




Who cares?


--------------------

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OfflineTurn
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6113598 - 09/28/06 10:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The most ridiculous part of the law is that the confessions extracted through torture can then be used against them in a militray court. O makes perfect sense

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OfflinePhred
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6114386 - 09/29/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

And -- as usual -- our Anna proves herself incapable of composing an accurate headline.

Do you ever actually READ the stuff you post here, Anna? I mean do you make the effort to read each word in each sentence; read every paragraph; read a piece right through to the end? Do you take the time to THINK about what you read or do you just skim an article until you see some word which triggers a Libby kneejerk spark of recognition -- perhaps a word like "aggressive" or "stress" -- at which point your fingers with no further input from your cerebral cortex type out "torture"?

Of course (as every rational reader here who took the time to read it through has realized) the article does NOT report that the House has legalized torture -- far from it, in fact.

But hey -- don't start letting facts get in your way at this late date. You have a reputation to uphold.





Phred


--------------------

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Phred]
    #6114433 - 09/29/06 07:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Lets give terrorist suspects some coffee, and understand why they feel the way they do......


Aukmad.....two sugar cubes or one ??????


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Phred]
    #6114600 - 09/29/06 08:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
And -- as usual -- our Anna proves herself incapable of composing an accurate headline.

Do you ever actually READ the stuff you post here, Anna? I mean do you make the effort to read each word in each sentence; read every paragraph; read a piece right through to the end? Do you take the time to THINK about what you read or do you just skim an article until you see some word which triggers a Libby kneejerk spark of recognition -- perhaps a word like "aggressive" or "stress" -- at which point your fingers with no further input from your cerebral cortex type out "torture"?

Of course (as every rational reader here who took the time to read it through has realized) the article does NOT report that the House has legalized torture -- far from it, in fact.

But hey -- don't start letting facts get in your way at this late date. You have a reputation to uphold.





Phred




the law says that torture is illegal..but it also says that no complaints of violations can be filed in a federal court...as such..the accuracy of the thread title depends on whether or not you could torture a prisoner and escape prosecution under that bit of legal mumbo-jumbo above...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleStroFun
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6114988 - 09/29/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: StroFun]
    #6115261 - 09/29/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Here, we don't need such absolutes. Because we're normal.




Wow, that's the most rational and objective explanation i've ever read :smirk: . Sure you're "normal", it's the rest of the world that is crazy as the old wild west.

Now i understand, the US feels compelled to "normalize" planet earth. Talking about absolutes huh ? ...

Quote:

Who cares?




Yeah, who cares about freedom and privacy, when all we need is more security from those pesky terrorists ?

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

Do you know who wrote this ? .... Probably some mexican guy or something ...

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6115287 - 09/29/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"[...]And compassion. Don't they put you in jail for saying the holocaust is a lie there?"
It's a relict from our American 'liberators' :grin:

"[...]Because we're normal."
That means, 'you' are the 'absolute' ?

Torture is an absolute no-no.
There was a police case here some years ago and the commanding officer almost went into jail. The victim died in a small buried box, while the police interrogated the commiter about the place, where the box was dug. That hardened the position, that torture is a no go, I will research on that.
The danger of torturing that one who doesn't know is only another point, but the whole 'principle' of methods of interrogation has to be questioned.

Edit: It seems mainly a question about 1) human rights, 2) german prime law paragraph (human's dignity is indefeasable) and 3) the rules of the monopoly of force, to hinder force (edit: violence).
The point about the 'foreign judgement' and the down-spiral, from someone in the thread, counts very much, as well as it heats the agressions, that is why a state or country should avoid to be agressive. It will fall back on them.

Ps: I am not representative of German folks here :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (09/29/06 02:36 PM)

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6115443 - 09/29/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6115612 - 09/29/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)














Why ???












That's why ...


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6115761 - 09/29/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:tinfoil:  :cuckoo:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6115825 - 09/29/06 02:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



well i thought it was funny....


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: lonestar2004]
    #6115852 - 09/29/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:


well i thought it was funny....




THIS is funny



--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: house legalizes torture.. senate to follow suit... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6115900 - 09/29/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Kinda sad... because I voted for him twice. :blush:


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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