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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6108354 - 09/27/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

compassion? how does compassion equate into your food choice?

i dont eat humans because we are filthy animals, as well as gives you a debilitating brain disease after prolonged long pig consumption.

I agree that the FDA gives two turds in a bucket about the wellbeing and health of people in leiu of financial gain.....

I see no correlation between spirituality and the types of food you consume. Maybe one can have some seemingly rational bitch which conflicts with their personal ethics, but dont try and act like you are a compassionate freedom fighter for not eating meat.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6108507 - 09/27/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im vegetarian mainly out of compassion. But not just compassion for the animals, but for all those involved in the meat indiustry process that are accumilating such vast ammounts of negative actions. I cannot in good concience support such a system.

I think in western society in general we have so much choice and variety of fruit, vegetables, nuts, etc, that there is no longer any real need to consume other creatures of this earth. Doing so, IMHO is an example of lacking in spiriutal evolution.




I'm not so sure that eating vegetarian is an evolutionary step.

So we can do it easily but in other parts of the world where it's cold they don't have access to spiritual evolution. Is that their karma for being the bad guys?

Not to mention a million ways you can be a self righteous and self important veggie and be almost completely asleep at the wheel.

Jesus never said much about  it and he was a pretty awake dude I hear among others.

No Sindbad, I think it's just a matter of personal ethics and subjective like everything else we believe.

I personally don't like the idea of animals being penned and treated like machines so I try to eat meat that isn't treated quite so harshly. But I also feel sorry for all the carrots stuck in those rows and not living in a natural environment. Plants have relationships to other plants you know. :wink: Seriously, there is something wrong with everything we do if you want to look at it  closely enough. Killing is a function of the natural world. Take it to extremes and you end up watching where you put each step for fear of wounding an ant. True. :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Icelander]
    #6108623 - 09/27/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Jesus never said much about it and he was a pretty awake dude I hear among others.



I think this passage from the Gospel of Thomas can help clarify Jesus' stance:

Quote:

His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"

Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."



I think what this says about vegetarianism is to only do it if your heart is in it. If you do it just because someone else tells you it's spiritual, you'll only be harming your spiritual development.


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: demiu5]
    #6109030 - 09/27/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Humans have the notion of eating a vegetarian diet because we have developed morality, a sense of right or wrong, that reaches beyond satisfying our own desires and takes into consideration the suffering of other humans and animals. The harvest of animal products causes animals to suffer and be deprived of life. We do not need to eat animal products to survive and/or be healthy. Some still choose to eat animal products despite the amount of suffering it causes the animals because they enjoy the sensual pleasure derived when meat, egg, cheese, etc. comes in contact with the taste buds.

Unless your position is that morality (right and wrong, good and evil) is completely relative/subjective then I don't think it is really up-in-the-air whether or not eating meat is wrong. If needless suffering and killing is not wrong, what is?

The moral relativist has a debate. The conscience of a vegan is clear. Anyone else is either ignorant or flagrantly selfish.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Sinbad]
    #6109060 - 09/27/06 08:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
...more aware of him/herself, and as a consequence more able to skillfully, with wisdom and compassion work with the varying circumstances that present themselves in life, both internally and externally, for the mutual benefit of both self and other.

This more of an extended version of the concept of adaptation that Darwin presented...




Really? You think so? In that sense reading a book is evolution, working out is evolution, as well as learning how to juggle bananas for money. An aid to better offspring is an aid, but not the act itself.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6109077 - 09/27/06 08:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
I see no correlation between spirituality and the types of food you consume.




I completely disagree with you on an odyssey of reasons.

A. Ever fasted? You become extremely aware of everything around you.

B. Eating junk food will clog your arteries, give you high blood pressure, make you less able, less taut. Eating whole foods will do wonders for you, your mind, body and spirit will be one.

C.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109091 - 09/27/06 09:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Unless your position is that morality (right and wrong, good and evil) is completely relative/subjective then I don't think it is really up-in-the-air whether or not eating meat is wrong. If needless suffering and killing is not wrong, what is?



Is it your belief that eating meat in itself causes suffering and killing? Or is it the killing of the animal that is wrong? What if you don't buy any meat, but eat it when it is offered to you? Would you be contributing to the animal's suffering, or simply accepting the hospitality of others?


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109134 - 09/27/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Is it your belief that eating meat in itself causes suffering and killing? Or is it the killing of the animal that is wrong? What if you don't buy any meat, but eat it when it is offered to you? Would you be contributing to the animal's suffering, or simply accepting the hospitality of others?




Eating meat in itself is not wrong. If a human or animal gives their meat to you consensually it is not wrong. If you eat meat from a human or animal that has died of natural causes it is not wrong. If someone has supported or committed a wrongdoing and wishes to share their spoils with you, I don't think it is proper to condone their evil deed by accepting.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109170 - 09/27/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Why? How does it cause suffering to accept the offerings of others? Will it stop them from eating meat? Will it stop any animals from being killed?

Also, is there a moral difference between killing and eating a deer or letting a wolf eat it?


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109178 - 09/27/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
If someone has supported or committed a wrongdoing and wishes to share their spoils with you, I don't think it is proper to condone their evil deed by accepting.




A tiger will outrun and kill an antelope. He killed that antelope to feed himself, out of selfish reasons. He didn't want to kill the antelope for the sake of murder, but for hunger. Did he do wrong?

I can go and buy a bottle of Dasani water. The Coca-Cola corp. privatizes water sources therefore causing villages and tribes to suffer and contract disease throughout India. I do not want to condone this behaviour, but this brand is all that the store has, and I am thirsty. Did I do wrong?


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109217 - 09/27/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Why? How does it cause suffering to accept the offerings of others? Will it stop them from eating meat? Will it stop any animals from being killed?




I didn't say it causes suffering. But it condones the act. Will it stop them from eating meat? Maybe. Maybe it will plant that seed in their head that maybe what they are doing is wrong, and in the future this seed will blossom.

My grandmother is very old and I am lucky she remembers my name, let alone that she remembers I am a vegan. If she cooks Thanksgiving dinner and cooks the vegetables in some butter, I will still eat them. But I think in most cases it is best to be a role model for others.

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Also, is there a moral difference between killing and eating a deer or letting a wolf eat it?




Wolves are strictly carnivores AFAIK. They need to eat meat to survive. Humans do not. That is the difference.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109230 - 09/27/06 09:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Wolves are strictly carnivores AFAIK. They need to eat meat to survive. Humans do not. That is the difference.



Yet the outcome is the same for the deer, is it not?


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Fospher]
    #6109233 - 09/27/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
A tiger will outrun and kill an antelope. He killed that antelope to feed himself, out of selfish reasons. He didn't want to kill the antelope for the sake of murder, but for hunger. Did he do wrong?




Either the antelope dies, or the tiger dies.  Someone is screwed either way, so I think it's okay for the tiger to choose himself as the one to live on.  :smile:

Quote:

Fospher said:
I can go and buy a bottle of Dasani water. The Coca-Cola corp. privatizes water sources therefore causing villages and tribes to suffer and contract disease throughout India. I do not want to condone this behaviour, but this brand is all that the store has, and I am thirsty. Did I do wrong?




If there is cruelty-free water available at the store 5 seconds away, I think you will stay hydrated long enough to make it there.  :smile:

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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109238 - 09/27/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Yet the outcome is the same for the deer, is it not?




Your point?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109241 - 09/27/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Yet the outcome is the same for the deer, is it not?




Your point?



Do you honestly think the deer cares who eats it?


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109242 - 09/27/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Humans have the notion of eating a vegetarian diet because we have developed morality, a sense of right or wrong, that reaches beyond satisfying our own desires and takes into consideration the suffering of other humans and animals. The harvest of animal products causes animals to suffer and be deprived of life. We do not need to eat animal products to survive and/or be healthy. Some still choose to eat animal products despite the amount of suffering it causes the animals because they enjoy the sensual pleasure derived when meat, egg, cheese, etc. comes in contact with the taste buds.




So, are you saying that other animals, carnivores or omnivores, that eat meat are immoral creatures because they do?  I'm sure many of them could also be sustained on vegetables given the option/choice.

Also, why make the distinction between humans and animals?;)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109269 - 09/27/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
If there is cruelty-free water available at the store 5 seconds away, I think you will stay hydrated long enough to make it there.  :smile:




There isnt! I will go dehydrated and just happened to walk in Death Valley's 7-11. What's it gonna be?!  :shineon:


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109319 - 09/27/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Silver: I don't think the deer will mind the eating so much, he'll be dead when you eat him (I hope!!!). I think the pain and fear the deer will experience before dying, as a result of your actions, is what he/she is going to care about.

Dem: Other creatures are amoral, not immoral. They cannot sustain themselves on a vegan diet. I assure you, it requires abundant resources as well as intelligence. I don't think you're going to teach a wolf to use the supermarket, even if he could survive being vegan.

Fospher: You may save yourself. No one can completely detach themselves from evil. But if avoiding needless suffering is as easy as going vegetarian, I see some moral obligation there.

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109336 - 09/27/06 10:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Dem: Other creatures are amoral, not immoral. They cannot sustain themselves on a vegan diet. I assure you, it requires abundant resources as well as intelligence. I don't think you're going to teach a wolf to use the supermarket, even if he could survive being vegan.




I said nothing about a vegan diet. Supermarkets are evil; locking food up. Now try actually answering the question(s) I asked, please.

Quote:

Fospher: You may save yourself. No one can completely detach themselves from evil. But if avoiding needless suffering is as easy as going vegetarian, I see some moral obligation there.




Who are you to say that he, one man, can survive and let/contribute to a village and surrounding plant/animal life be wiped out?


Also, do you think it was immoral of our long long lost descendants to kill animals for food? What about the few reamining groups of Homo sapiens which are hunter/gatherers that still do?


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

Edited by demius (09/27/06 10:20 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Vegetarianism etc [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #6109350 - 09/27/06 10:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amber_Glow said:
Silver: I don't think the deer will mind the eating so much, he'll be dead when you eat him (I hope!!!). I think the pain and fear the deer will experience before dying, as a result of your actions, is what he/she is going to care about.



Then clearly, the deer would rather have a quick shot to the head, and never know what hit it, than be bitten in the neck and choked to death by a wolf.


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