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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
using hydrogen
    #6108203 - 09/27/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

to power a car. I see a bit out on the web about alternatives to gasoline. We hear about hydrogen cars. I read about a cell called the Joe Cell. It is said to produce hydrogen through orgone reacting with the metals and the water in a certain manor. They say you can simply place this thing next to your engine. This then charges the car, and runs it. After using it for a while, you charge the whole system and don't have to have the cell attached to run. This is do to the charging of the water in the cooling system and the metal surrounding it.

i am skeptical but i figure i shouldn't just say it's bull shit do to closed mindedness.

Has anyone read about this or looked into it or even heard of it?

If it's bull shit, then the people involved dedicated lots of time into scamming the masses.

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OfflineGeneephurr
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6108362 - 09/27/06 06:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It just makes me think that it's an accident waiting to happen. The way that hydrogen is so volotile with oxygen, I dunno. I, personally, wouldn't feel safe driving a hydrogen powered car in my lifetime.


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"Man's real life is happy,
chiefly because he is ever expecting that it soon will be so."
- Edgar Allan Poe

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: using hydrogen [Re: Geneephurr]
    #6108393 - 09/27/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

the container where the water and metal create they hydrogen is sealed shut. The reaction takes place inside then somehow flows out through the metal and into the car.

it works on an implosion verses an explosion or so i understand. This is all news to me and i still don't understand it.

When the Joe cell is open and bubbling you can take a match to it and it will ignite. But its doesn't explode it implodes.

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OfflineGeneephurr
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6108422 - 09/27/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yea, yea, I know it'd be perfectly safe, I'm just stubborn like that.

Normally I'm such a risk-taker with technology though. Maybe it's just too sci-fi for me to really understand/feel comfortable with? Who really knows.

It is a very interesting idea and concept though, and I will be excited for it to ever become reality (even if I wouldn't use it personally, it would be very cool to be part of the lifetime that sees something so exciting happen!).


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"Man's real life is happy,
chiefly because he is ever expecting that it soon will be so."
- Edgar Allan Poe

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6110092 - 09/28/06 03:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I had never heard of it, but just searched for it and read a bit.

Here are some sites I found:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Joe_Cell
http://www.thejoecell.com/
http://www.byronnewenergy.com/wiki/index.php/Joe_Cell_Theory

Smells like a giant heap of bullshit to me. I can't find a good explanation of the cell and everything I read is full with "new age" terms. I personally am more than a bit skeptic towards "new age" people inventing a free energy cell. They use scientific words to make it sound cool and real, but from what I read I get the impression they don't even know what electrolysis is.

A few quotes:

Among those who believe in Orgone energy, the Joe Cell is believed to be an Orgone Accumulator.

in stage 4 the cell is said to exhibit antigravity effects that reduce the weight of the vehicle in which the cell is installed.

the cell is said to generate a gas that energetically implodes when ignited.

The author believed that the mysterious gas must therefore possess the ability to pass THROUGH the metal of the carburetor housing to reach the interior of the engine.

Anti-Gravity
Anti-gravity? Ford F10 lifted off the ground. (Apr 19, 2006) "I have been told that in some cases a vehicle can levitate." -- John Carter (Apr 19, 2006)
Peter's account: Ford F250 "lifted off the ground a couple of inches" (Apr 20, 2006)

Vernon Roth is presently (2006) producing magnetic/electric water (http://pesn.com/2006/04/14/9600258_Joe_Cell_Shocker_Bottle/) via a modified Joe cell design. You can purchase bottles of his water from his site. His website is http://ancienttek.com . He may be reached at 719-783-0310. ( $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ )

Peter Stevens describes a method for obtaining health benefits from the Joe Cell. "...you're now recharged with a clean Body free of those diseases" (Apr 16, 2006)

orgone accumulator helps man with a terrible pain in his back


- http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Joe_Cell

It has been reported that when used to power a normal internal combustion engine, the device
generates as much as 50% more power than what would be possible using gasoline as fuel. These
converted engines utlilise completely different timing to a gasoline powered engines. It is also said that the engines run cooler than when powered by gasoline.


- http://www.thejoecell.com/

To understand the free zero point energy of the universe, is to understand the ancient cosmologies and the nature of our universe. The ancients believed that he universe consists of a vibrating sea of energy, the ether that is all around us. The material world does not exist of separate particles that we call matter, but instead is created from standing waves in the ether. This ancient view of our universe is best explained in a novel physics called ‘implosion physics’ by Daniel Winter, who is an expert in sacred geometry, an ancient science and philosophy that can be traced back to the Egyptians.

Now just for a moment image the universe to be electrical in nature and imagine all matter to actually exist of these imploding vortexes, then the universe is basically a matrix of electromagnetic waves imploding into what we call matter. The matrix itself consists of interwoven Platonic Solids geometries. When waves are nested within waves from long to short wave lengths, everything gets interconnected, galaxies, planets, molecules, atoms and subatomic particles.


- http://www.byronnewenergy.com/wiki/index.php/Joe_Cell_Theory

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Annom]
    #6110237 - 09/28/06 06:05 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Either the energy is there, Orgone.

Umm no, I don't believe in it. The Orgone people have been promising great wonders for a long while now, and none to my knowledge materialized.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6112208 - 09/28/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

obtaining hydrogen requires fossil fuels, electricity, or both. it'll help when there is abundant clean energy and we need something clean to power our cars. it doesn't address the root of the problem.

i like this:

greasecar.com


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: wilshire]
    #6113223 - 09/28/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm highly skeptical of hydrogen. I think the future of transportation lies in biofuels, combined with smart design features which maximize fuel economy.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Silversoul]
    #6114592 - 09/29/06 08:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think we can produce enough biofuel: we already need agriculture for lots of things, I don't think agriculture can bear the load of fueling our transportation as well.

A liter of veggie oil isn't just a 10 mile drive: its 9 megacalories and 10 man/days worth of fat intake.
A week of driving deprives humanity of 1.000 man/days of lipids.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: using hydrogen [Re: Asante]
    #6114603 - 09/29/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thats why i think we are idiots for trying to grow corn for ethanol!

Why did we kick hemp to the curb? France uses hemp with no thc.....

We could easily grow lots of hemp way more hemp compared to corn.

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6114635 - 09/29/06 08:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Hydrogen is a good way to transport energy; it's a "battery" with a high energy density.

It isn't a solution for the upcoming energy problem though.

I still think Nuclear Power is the only good alternative for fossil fuels at the moment. All our electricity could be produced by Nuclear Power Plants.

Organizations like Greenpeace are against fossil fuels, nuclear power and in Holland even against wind turbines(because it kills birds), but they don't come up with an alternative.

The problem is that the general public is scared by the word Nuclear, while they know nothing about it.

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: using hydrogen [Re: Annom]
    #6114641 - 09/29/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i like the idea of using geothermal heat to produce hot water and electricity.

I also like wind energy.

I think more people should take things into their own hands and stop depending on the government to tell them it's ok.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #6114841 - 09/29/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Primary energy is one of my pet problems in recreational science :sun:

Wind isn't going to cut it. Do you know what we need?

500.000.000.000.000.000.000 Joules/year

That's 500 billion billion joules of energy, and we need it annually, and we need it to be as green as possible.

And before most of us retire we need a billion billon kilojoules a year.

10-21 joules = 250 x 10-18 kcal = 7500 trillion liters of biodiesel
Just how far are we going to exploit zippoz' urge to help the enviroment? :wink:

Geothermal, wind, solar, hydroelectric, tidal, biomass, nuclear fission, nuclear fusion.. We're going to need it all!

What we should do in any case is develop 21st century nuclear reactors and build them in quantity. Emphasis should be on neutron breeding and conservation of not just uranium 235 but even U-238 (depleted uranium, currently considered a waste product), because we're going to need every scrap of remotely fissionable material we can get, in case our nuclear fusion plans run into unanticipated difficulties.

One "barrel" of uranium or plutonium still replaces some ten million or so barrels of oil, producing only one barrel of nuclear waste. We can park that waste into an orbit around the sun (using an electromagnetic cannon known as a rail gun, fueled by the same nuclear plant) and we're rid of the waste, but still can retrieve it if we find a use for it, such as a passive radiation plant.

I think nuclear fusion will ultimately be the way to go unless some sci fi technology presents itself. But currently all solar-energy derived terrestrial methods simply won't meet our demands unless we can solve engineering challenges that are larger than those holding us back from fusion.

We need it all!

Greenpeace will firebomb my house if I were to suggest that we use fusion-generated neutrons to breed plutonium fuel from depleted uranium (generating a whopping 200 MeV from a single neutron), but I think we need these kind of tactics to both expand into progress and to undo the damage already done to the enviroment.


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OfflineAnnom
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Asante]
    #6114901 - 09/29/06 10:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, more people, or the press, should do these simple calculations. That inevitably leads to the conclusion that we need "21st century nuclear reactors in quantity".

More efficient and cheap Spray-On Solar-Power Cells could also make a serious contribution to the world energy needs in the future.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Asante]
    #6114931 - 09/29/06 10:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm... use depleted uranyl nitrate in the cooling loop to absorb excess neutrons thus breading plutonium... interesting idea...


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: using hydrogen [Re: Asante]
    #6114976 - 09/29/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If we harvested wind from an entire state the size of South Dakota we would have enough energy for the whole country.

The thing is the waste from nuclear energy is just to harmful, and the byproducts made from it are used for no good reason, i feel, we are all to juvenile to have such things at our side.

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: using hydrogen [Re: Annom]
    #6114992 - 09/29/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Yes, more people, or the press, should do these simple calculations. That inevitably leads to the conclusion that we need "21st century nuclear reactors in quantity".

More efficient and cheap Spray-On Solar-Power Cells could also make a serious contribution to the world energy needs in the future.




we have a company, that is a green company of sorts. They come in place solar cells on your property for free. They then take you off the main grid and put you on theres. Then you get a bill from the company at 10 cents a kw.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Seuss]
    #6115273 - 09/29/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

use depleted uranyl nitrate in the cooling loop to absorb excess neutrons thus breading plutonium...





Currently the ITER seeks to fuse Tritium deuteride, because we might do that but aren't ready to fuse pure deuterium yet, nor do we have the moon colony needed for Helium-3 mining. (D+He-3 being the best of the best in fusion land)

So what we will be doing now is shove a neutron into lithium to get tritium to get less than a neutron back.

Greenpeace is about to issue a fatwa, but if you shove a neutron into depleted uranium (currently useless and abundent nuclear waste) you don't get one tritium for a 20 MeV fusion, but one plutonium for a 200 MeV fission, which might I add produces 2-3 neutrons in extracting that energy. Neutrons from a fusion reactor in this way may be used to push a fission reactor system over the breeding barrier.

To put it in less technical terms: this may give rise to a technique which allows us to produce 100x more energy from every ton of uranium ore we are mining today, which may create a neutron surplus which in turn can be used to manufacture very good fusion reactor fuel, so that Fusion/Fission becomes a mutually beneficial symbiosis.

Seuss, what you make of this: using natural uranyl acetate in the fusion reactor to create the 3% enriched uranium used in many contemporary reactors? Saves a lot of enrichment headaches and avoids the costly need of heavy water moderator needed for a  CANDU reactor to work :sun:


EDIT:

OMG!! I don't have the exact figures, but the hard neutrons generated by fusion are by themselves be energetic enough to at once cleave depleted uranium (like in a fidssion-fusion-fission bomb like Castle Bravo was) which would mean that the excess neutrons from the fusion reactor could be used RIGHT THEN AND THERE to keep a depleted uranium reactor running. (fusion neutrons cleaving uranium, thermal neutrons breeding plutonium)
This would create a hybrid nuclear reactor that combines fusion and fission. Even depleted uranium might significantly add to the energy output. while being bred for plutonium

This is one sexy way to deal with neutron flux issues :evil:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Asante]
    #6117160 - 09/29/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I don't think we can produce enough biofuel: we already need agriculture for lots of things, I don't think agriculture can bear the load of fueling our transportation as well.

A liter of veggie oil isn't just a 10 mile drive: its 9 megacalories and 10 man/days worth of fat intake.
A week of driving deprives humanity of 1.000 man/days of lipids.



Apparently you haven't heard of switchgrass. An area about the size of Idaho can provide for all of America's fuel needs.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
Re: using hydrogen [Re: Silversoul]
    #6118093 - 09/30/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yeah i just listened to that on WNPR

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Silversoul]
    #6118579 - 09/30/06 01:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What are you saying, that's 21.600.000 hectares

Let's fertilize Idaho for heck's sake :wink:

Let's select a highly potent general purpose fertilizer you might find in a garden center: NPK 15-30-15
How much to use for Idaho? *grabs calculator*

Correct amount: one metric ton per hectare

= 21.6 billion kilos of fertilizer

This fertilizer contains 324 million kilos of nitrogen.
Hold da phone right there! Forget the potassium and phosphorus!

Those 324 kT of nitrogen can't be found in nature, they have to be fixated by chemical industry: pulled from the air, turned to ammonia, burn half, add water, add other half.. You get the picture :smile:

Acid rain tells us that those 324 kT fixated nitrogen is the visible portion of about a megaton of fixated nitrogen pollution, so just the nitrogen creates a million ton addition to the nitrogen cycle disruption, which is the nitro version of the CO2 situation.

Lets see.. make & move 21.6 Mt fertilizer each year (creating a megaton of pollution) to harvest a gigaton or two of biomass, to combust all this cleanly while Greenpeace watches your every move.
It sounds less than practical to me, and not all that green.

On a small scale Switchgrass is VERY interesting indeed, but not on a grand scale. All it would do is raise a Tall Panic :wink:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Asante]
    #6118588 - 09/30/06 01:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Switchgrass doesn't need fertilizer, or pesticides. It doesn't need to be watered either. It's a native species to the American midwest, which means it's already well-adapted to the environment. In fact, it's one of the most common species of tallgrass on the prairie.


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InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
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Re: using hydrogen [Re: Silversoul]
    #6118683 - 09/30/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you harvest the switchgrass, you take the minerals with you. So within a few years you have to fertilize, and literally that much.

The minerals get absorbed into the grass you're harvesting (so you can salvage the potassium and sodium from your ash or waste after processing.

There's no free ride: you have to fertilize if you harvest, thats the golden rule of agriculture.

Its a wonderful cash crop, but if we really want to deal with the scale of the energy requirements of planet earth, it falls short.

I seek to power billions of people, for that purpose it's too small.
Still, I agree, 400 liters of ethanol from every ton of crop is utterly amazing!


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

Edited by Asante (09/30/06 02:41 PM)

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