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OfflineBasilides
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Wag the Dog
    #6107150 - 09/27/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Retarded conspiracy theories aside, who's fault is the intelligence failure of 9-11? Bill Clinton, who was in power through much of the period while Al Qaeda was growing, or George Bush where September 11th transpired under his watch?

In light of the interview with Chris Wallace, Clinton made numerous claims:

-That the Bush Administration demoted the country's top counter-terrorism advisor, Richard Clarke, who over saw much of Al Qaeda's early development in the 1990's, as well as the onset of anti-American Islamism in the 80's.

-That he had relentlessly persued Bin Laden to the dismay of Neocons (ie, Wag the Dog) who described him as "obsessed with Bin Laden" and accused him of using OBL as a distraction from the Lewinsky scandal.

-That he had wanted to launch a full scale invasion of Afghanistan to root out Al Qaeda, however conservative influence did not allow this to enter fruition.

-That he left the incoming Bush administration a comprehensive counter-terrorism plan/format to deal with the prospective threat of Al Qaeda, which was largely underplayed or ignored by the new Administration.

-That Al Qaeda had nothing to do with Black Hawk Down, despite contemporary conservative criticism that pulling out of Somalia encouraged Al Qaeda.

-That ultimately, he did everything within his power to counter the threat of Al Qaeda.

The attacks would then take place 8 months after George Bush was sworn into office. Clinton consistently hinted at the fact that 9/11 happened under Bush's watch.

So who is more to blame? Were Neocons actually critical of Clinton's ardent stand against Al Qaeda? Is Richard Clarke right in his assertion that George Bush was far too obsessed with Saddam Hussein and Iraq off the get go when Al Qaeda was the real security threat?

Discuss


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6107200 - 09/27/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

your choices are too limited to be accurate. This is not an A/B situation with a finger pointing in just one direction.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: kotik]
    #6107247 - 09/27/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
your choices are too limited to be accurate. This is not an A/B situation with a finger pointing in just one direction.




Quote:

Basilides said:
Retarded conspiracy theories aside




I asked who was more to blame for the intelligence failure of 9-11. Clearly one of them is.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6107447 - 09/27/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Good luck finding your scapegoat.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: zorbman]
    #6107465 - 09/27/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I just knew this thread would attract all the whack job conspiracy theorists. 9-11 was an intelligence failure, not an "inside job". Specifically, this thread is for those who also believe it was an intelligence failure, not loonie truthies. Honestly, if you wish to discuss 9-11 outside the spectrum of the intel bust that it was, start another conspiracy thread so it can be debunked and burried like the rest.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6107507 - 09/27/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, if one were to look at it numerically:

the successful number of terrorist attacks against the USA under Clinton

vs

the number of successful terrorist attacks against the USA under Bush



The number would be less for Bush, however, 9/11 was a woozy, with a higher death count then Clinton's.
I wish I could place blame, but honestly don't trust what my government tells me to begin with.


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6107514 - 09/27/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It was a big failure for the CIA too.

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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6107718 - 09/27/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Today, right now, blame should be placed on OBL and that's it. It's important that we carefully study and recognize the mistakes so that this doesn't happen again, but I don't think either president deserves to be blamed for 9/11 in the slightest. Absolutely nothing good, besides good television, is gonna come out of attacking these men. Let's get on with our lives.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6107783 - 09/27/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
I just knew this thread would attract all the whack job conspiracy theorists. 9-11 was an intelligence failure, not an "inside job". Specifically, this thread is for those who also believe it was an intelligence failure, not loonie truthies. Honestly, if you wish to discuss 9-11 outside the spectrum of the intel bust that it was, start another conspiracy thread so it can be debunked and burried like the rest.




Wow. Just because I think the blame-game is pointless and this is a hunt for a scapegoat that makes me a "whackjob consipiracy theorist"? Where have I said anything about a conspiracy?

Maybe the loony you're looking for is staring at you in the mirror.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6109146 - 09/27/06 09:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In a Clintonian-esque way of answering to this issue, "it depends". Depending on what side of the political fence you're on, you perceived this interview completely differently. Republicans/Cons saw a purple faced ex-president get all riled up about mistakes that he's made during his term. Democrats/Liberals saw a brilliant politician lay out the facts and make Wallace look like a schoolboy who just got punched in the nose for having that "little smirk on his face".

Clinton's ace in the sleeve was his reference to Clarke's book which supports his viewpoint - and he flashed his cards quite often. I dont blame Clinton for being angry either - in fact that trait of his personality is what gave him the highest approval rating walking out of the office ever since the polling system took place. Sometimes when you're right - you need to be angry. I think he also set a good example for the Dems with his "fighting back" attitude. :lol:

Clinton admitted his faults. He was honest. He said what information he had and what he could do. He also said that he failed, several times through the interview. We haven't seen any of that from our current president. Not for 9/11. Not for Katrina. Not for Iraq. One of the most prominent features for a strong leader is being able to admit your faults, and that's why I think Clinton came out the better man in the end.


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Registered: 04/27/06
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Basilides]
    #6109157 - 09/27/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

drop the word "conspiracy", it's become a bias nowadays.

you won't get any reasonable answers with such an unreasonable attitude. :wink:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Gijith]
    #6109197 - 09/27/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Today, right now, blame should be placed on OBL and that's it. It's important that we carefully study and recognize the mistakes so that this doesn't happen again, but I don't think either president deserves to be blamed for 9/11 in the slightest. Absolutely nothing good, besides good television, is gonna come out of attacking these men. Let's get on with our lives.



I disagree. This administration keeps justifying the Patriot Act and other infringements on our civil liberties by saying that they are necessary to defend us against terrorism. If in fact 9/11 was preventable with the laws on hand and the intelligence available at the time, and was allowed to occur by either incompetence or complacency, then this completely wrecks their argument, and shows that we can be safe while keeping our Constitutional freedoms.


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
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Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Gijith]
    #6109313 - 09/27/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think either president deserves to be blamed for 9/11 in the slightest




So you don't believe in "the buck stops here"? A president can let the greatest attack on our soil take place and gets no blame? So we should just give them a free pass for everything? Views like yours are going to cost us our way of life.


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Invisiblezorbman
blarrr
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: Wag the Dog [Re: Silversoul]
    #6109443 - 09/27/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Gijith said:
Today, right now, blame should be placed on OBL and that's it. It's important that we carefully study and recognize the mistakes so that this doesn't happen again, but I don't think either president deserves to be blamed for 9/11 in the slightest. Absolutely nothing good, besides good television, is gonna come out of attacking these men. Let's get on with our lives.



I disagree. This administration keeps justifying the Patriot Act and other infringements on our civil liberties by saying that they are necessary to defend us against terrorism. If in fact 9/11 was preventable with the laws on hand and the intelligence available at the time, and was allowed to occur by either incompetence or complacency, then this completely wrecks their argument, and shows that we can be safe while keeping our Constitutional freedoms.





Excellant point, Silversoul.


--------------------
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