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Offlineplyx
That BlondeChick

Registered: 06/16/06
Posts: 95
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Saturated silica gel as casing layer? *Now With Science Nerd Back-Up*!
    #6092229 - 09/23/06 12:12 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Is there a possibility of using the silica gel beads that change color to indicate when they are saturated as a casing layer by saturating them, letting them dry for a few hours or so, then laying them over substrate as a casing layer.

They would be very resistant to contams and it would be fairly easy to be sure that your casing layer was at the right humidity. If you kept them at just the right level of humidity they would'nt be sucking precious precipitation from the substrate, instead they would make sure locking the water in was a guarantee. Maybe?

I did a search for this here and came up with nothing.

Edited by plyx (09/24/06 03:05 AM)

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OfflineCantiSama

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 794
Last seen: 5 months, 29 days
Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: plyx]
    #6092314 - 09/23/06 12:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i would think that something used to dry shrooms to the bone would make a really crappy casing layer. i'm going to say no, it is exactly the opposite of what you want.


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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.

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Offlineplyx
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Registered: 06/16/06
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: CantiSama]
    #6092321 - 09/23/06 01:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I understand what you are saying, but have you read my entire post?

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Offlinezathan
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: plyx]
    #6092333 - 09/23/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The color changing properties of silica gel are a result of a toxic chemical. I'd also imagine that mycelium would have a tough time growing on the beads.


Short answer is No.

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Offlineplyx
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Registered: 06/16/06
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: zathan]
    #6092343 - 09/23/06 01:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

From what I understood, the casing layer needs to be non-nutritive. That is definetly a property of silica gel. Also. if I'm not mistaken, Mushrooms don't "grow" on any casing layer, the casing just allows them to have a place away from the substrate to blossom. The primary function of a casing layer is to provide the substrate with a constant level of hydration, partly by making sure the humidity doesn't escape too quickly.

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Invisibleodium33
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Registered: 05/16/06
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: plyx]
    #6092347 - 09/23/06 01:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

doesnt sound like a good idea to me, but give it a shot and report back if you are really that curious


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OfflineCantiSama

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 794
Last seen: 5 months, 29 days
Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: plyx]
    #6092350 - 09/23/06 01:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

no, i didn't because i think this idea is ridiculous, but alright, how about this: the silica can't absorb moisture indefinitely, right? so while you water the gel to the "right" level it will just become a blob of goo. when it becomes too saturated with water, you're fucked because water won't evaporate out of it and you will be stuck with a mess and no mushrooms. but hey, i could be wrong so try it.


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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.

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Offlinezathan
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: CantiSama]
    #6092365 - 09/23/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Hazards

Alone, silica gel is non-toxic, non-flammable and chemically unreactive. However, some of the beads may be doped with a moisture indicator, such as cobalt (II) chloride, which is carcinogenic. Cobalt (II) chloride is deep blue when dry (anhydrous) and pink when moist (hydrated). This is the reason most silica gel packets are labeled as dangerous or poisonous when eaten.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica_gel




There's a reason why silica packets are labeled in plain letters, DO NOT EAT. But try it out anyway, eat the silica shrooms and tell us about it.

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OfflineWaCaRnOLdS2006
First TimeGrower
Registered: 09/18/06
Posts: 8
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: zathan]
    #6092404 - 09/23/06 01:59 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

DONT ARGUE ABOUT IT, I THINK HE SHOULD PERSONALLY GIVE IT A TRY FOR THE SAKE OF KNOWING. NOT SAYING I THINK IT WILL WORK BUT IF YOUR CURIOUS THEN GIVE IT A TRY.

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OfflineQuake3
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: WaCaRnOLdS2006]
    #6092423 - 09/23/06 02:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn't use Silica gel because of the danger labeled above, but I like the direction you're thinking in. Find a safer alternative with the same properties.

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InvisibleSam1912
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Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 2,142
Loc: Cali
Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: Quake3]
    #6092492 - 09/23/06 04:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

with this toxicity thing.. YOu can probably make little isolation cups.. but for feasibility?

Well, wouldn't it be really nice if the indicators indicated real live information of 99% saturation? For 1, it's hydration of the molecules over time.. beads work independantly from dessicants to give you approximation.(very rough approximation) meaning built up. Unless you plan on a slow conveyor belt of fresh indicators, there is no way to get current information by using indicators.

I believe, there are, however, more expensive versions you can buy for few thousand dollars that gives you full soil condition data using electrical probes. But somehow, I doubt that this post is about best setups, but rather cheaper alternatives. In any case, feel free to experiment if you want. Just don't put that stuff exposed to mycelium nutrient chain.


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Offlinemushnoon
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: Sam1912]
    #6092777 - 09/23/06 09:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

doesnt silica absorb oxygen? Arent you constantly trying to get more oxygen into your FC? dumb idea


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,693
Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: mushnoon]
    #6092811 - 09/23/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Putting the whole toxicity issue aside, it will most likely still not work. There's what I believe to be a fatal flaw in plyx' theory. Yes, the silica gel will absorb a lot of moisture, right up to the point where it's saturated. But where would you go from there? If you apply it as a casing layer, the moisture-sucking capability (osmotic value, if you want) will be many times higher than that of the mycelium (that's why silica gel is used in drying applications in the first place.) The effect is that the silica gel will draw moisture from the mycelium and substrate instead of the other way round as soon as the gel gets below its saturation point (which will be immediately if you dry the gel before you use it as casing.) Conclusion: the silica gel will do a lot of damage moisture-wise besides being carcinogenic and therefore a potential health hazard.

Definitely a no-go.

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OfflineMoomba
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: mushnoon]
    #6092817 - 09/23/06 10:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:shake:


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Offlineplyx
That BlondeChick

Registered: 06/16/06
Posts: 95
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: Moomba]
    #6094880 - 09/24/06 01:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

At least I'm not the only Nerd to have ever had this idea, check out:
http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/reprint/95/4/620.pdf

Notice in the first paragraph of the notes what casing materials this particular fungus would not fruit on. Any of those sound familiar?

BTW-agaricus bisporus is the mushroom you find at pizza hut.

Edited by plyx (09/24/06 03:10 AM)

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,693
Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: plyx]
    #6094996 - 09/24/06 04:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Interestingly, the paper you refer to also concludes that a. bisporus did not form primordia when cased with vermiculite, whereas cubes actually will pin when cased with straight verm.

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OfflineDeception
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: koraks]
    #6095068 - 09/24/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Do the chemicals everyone is freaking out about come out of the silica beads when you take the moisture out of them? (baking or heating in some way..) most desiccant chamber type devices I've seen so far recommend having the desiccant on a screen so the water will pool below them.. rather than a casing layer would it be beneficial to (on a screen) have the desiccant above the casing layer where it will pull moisture in and shower the casing? Lol.. this sounded better in my head but rather than elaborate any further I'll just leave it be and let people comment/tear it apart piece by piece.. well have at it  :thumbup: :thumbdown:


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If at first you don't succeed..
Hit it till your knuckles bleed..

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? [Re: Deception]
    #6095195 - 09/24/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The article on agaricus bisporus referenced silica, NOT silica gel which is a totally different, toxic product. Silica is sand.
RR


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? *Now With Science Nerd Back-Up*! [Re: plyx]
    #6095251 - 09/24/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

plyx said:
Is there a possibility of using the silica gel beads that change color to indicate when they are saturated as a casing layer by saturating them, letting them dry for a few hours or so, then laying them over substrate as a casing layer.

They would be very resistant to contams and it would be fairly easy to be sure that your casing layer was at the right humidity. If you kept them at just the right level of humidity they would'nt be sucking precious precipitation from the substrate, instead they would make sure locking the water in was a guarantee. Maybe?

I did a search for this here and came up with nothing.



Try polymer crystals instead.


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: Saturated silica gel as casing layer? *Now With Science Nerd Back-Up*! [Re: hyphae]
    #6095258 - 09/24/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:

Try polymer crystals instead.




get ones that are potassium based, not sodium based.



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