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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Registered: 01/31/03
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Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly?
    #6083500 - 09/20/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Text of Hugo Chavez speech at U.N. UN General Assembly


CHAVEZ (through translator):

"Representatives of the governments of the world, good morning to all of you. First of all, I would like to invite you, very respectfully, to those who have not read this book, to read it. Noam Chomsky, one of the most prestigious American and world intellectuals, Noam Chomsky, and this is one of his most recent books, 'Hegemony or Survival: The Imperialist Strategy of the United States.'"

[Holds up book, waves it in front of General Assembly.]

"It's an excellent book to help us understand what has been happening in the world throughout the 20th century, and what's happening now, and the greatest threat looming over our planet. The hegemonic pretensions of the American empire are placing at risk the very survival of the human species. We continue to warn you about this danger and we appeal to the people of the United States and the world to halt this threat, which is like a sword hanging over our heads. I had considered reading from this book, but, for the sake of time," [flips through the pages, which are numerous] "I will just leave it as a recommendation.

It reads easily, it is a very good book, I'm sure Madame :president: you are familiar with it. It appears in English, in Russian, in Arabic, in German. I think that the first people who should read this book are our brothers and sisters in the United States, because their threat is right in their own house. The devil is right at home. The devil, the devil himself, is right in the house.

"And the devil came here yesterday. Yesterday the devil came here. Right here." [crosses himself]

"And it smells of sulfur still today."

Yesterday, ladies and gentlemen, from this rostrum, the president of the United States, the gentleman to whom I refer as the devil, came here, talking as if he owned the world. Truly. As the owner of the world.

I think we could call a psychiatrist to analyze yesterday's statement made by the president of the United States. As the spokesman of imperialism, he came to share his nostrums, to try to preserve the current pattern of domination, exploitation and pillage of the peoples of the world.

An Alfred Hitchcock movie could use it as a scenario. I would even propose a title: "The Devil's Recipe."

As Chomsky says here, clearly and in depth, the American empire is doing all it can to consolidate its system of domination. And we cannot allow them to do that. We cannot allow world dictatorship to be consolidated.

The world parent's statement – cynical, hypocritical, full of this imperial hypocrisy from the need they have to control everything.

They say they want to impose a democratic model. But that's their democratic model. It's the false democracy of elites, and, I would say, a very original democracy that's imposed by weapons and bombs and firing weapons.

What a strange democracy. Aristotle might not recognize it or others who are at the root of democracy.

What type of democracy do you impose with marines and bombs?

The president of the United States, yesterday, said to us, right here, in this room, and I'm quoting, "Anywhere you look, you hear extremists telling you can escape from poverty and recover your dignity through violence, terror and martyrdom."

Wherever he looks, he sees extremists. And you, my brother – he looks at your color, and he says, oh, there's an extremist. Evo Morales, the worthy president of Bolivia, looks like an extremist to him.

The imperialists see extremists everywhere. It's not that we are extremists. It's that the world is waking up. It's waking up all over. And people are standing up.

I have the feeling, dear world dictator, that you are going to live the rest of your days as a nightmare because the rest of us are standing up, all those who are rising up against American imperialism, who are shouting for equality, for respect, for the sovereignty of nations.

Yes, you can call us extremists, but we are rising up against the empire, against the model of domination.

The president then – and this he said himself, he said: "I have come to speak directly to the populations in the Middle East, to tell them that my country wants peace."

That's true. If we walk in the streets of the Bronx, if we walk around New York, Washington, San Diego, in any city, San Antonio, San Francisco, and we ask individuals, the citizens of the United States, what does this country want? Does it want peace? They'll say yes.

But the government doesn't want peace. The government of the United States doesn't want peace. It wants to exploit its system of exploitation, of pillage, of hegemony through war.

It wants peace. But what's happening in Iraq? What happened in Lebanon? In Palestine? What's happening? What's happened over the last 100 years in Latin America and in the world? And now threatening Venezuela – new threats against Venezuela, against Iran?

He spoke to the people of Lebanon. Many of you, he said, have seen how your homes and communities were caught in the crossfire. How cynical can you get? What a capacity to lie shamefacedly. The bombs in Beirut with millimetric precision?

This is crossfire? He's thinking of a western, when people would shoot from the hip and somebody would be caught in the crossfire.

This is imperialist, fascist, assassin, genocidal, the empire and Israel firing on the people of Palestine and Lebanon. That is what happened. And now we hear, "We're suffering because we see homes destroyed.'

The president of the United States came to talk to the peoples – to the peoples of the world. He came to say – I brought some documents with me, because this morning I was reading some statements, and I see that he talked to the people of Afghanistan, the people of Lebanon, the people of Iran. And he addressed all these peoples directly.

And you can wonder, just as the president of the United States addresses those peoples of the world, what would those peoples of the world tell him if they were given the floor? What would they have to say?

And I think I have some inkling of what the peoples of the south, the oppressed people think. They would say, "Yankee imperialist, go home." I think that is what those people would say if they were given the microphone and if they could speak with one voice to the American imperialists.

And that is why, Madam President, my colleagues, my friends, last year we came here to this same hall as we have been doing for the past eight years, and we said something that has now been confirmed – fully, fully confirmed.

I don't think anybody in this room could defend the system. Let's accept – let's be honest. The U.N. system, born after the Second World War, collapsed. It's worthless.

Oh, yes, it's good to bring us together once a year, see each other, make statements and prepare all kinds of long documents, and listen to good speeches, like Abel's (ph) yesterday, or President Mullah's (ph). Yes, it's good for that.

And there are a lot of speeches, and we've heard lots from the president of Sri Lanka, for instance, and the president of Chile.

But we, the assembly, have been turned into a merely deliberative organ. We have no power, no power to make any impact on the terrible situation in the world. And that is why Venezuela once again proposes, here, today, 20 September, that we re-establish the United Nations.

Last year, Madam, we made four modest proposals that we felt to be crucially important. We have to assume the responsibility our heads of state, our ambassadors, our representatives, and we have to discuss it.

The first is expansion, and Mullah (ph) talked about this yesterday right here. The Security Council, both as it has permanent and non-permanent categories, (inaudible) developing countries and LDCs must be given access as new permanent members. That's step one.

Second, effective methods to address and resolve world conflicts, transparent decisions.

Point three, the immediate suppression – and that is something everyone's calling for – of the anti-democratic mechanism known as the veto, the veto on decisions of the Security Council.

Let me give you a recent example. The immoral veto of the United States allowed the Israelis, with impunity, to destroy Lebanon. Right in front of all of us as we stood there watching, a resolution in the council was prevented.

Fourthly, we have to strengthen, as we've always said, the role and the powers of the secretary general of the United Nations.

Yesterday, the secretary general practically gave us his speech of farewell. And he recognized that over the last 10 years, things have just gotten more complicated; hunger, poverty, violence, human rights violations have just worsened. That is the tremendous consequence of the collapse of the United Nations system and American hegemonistic pretensions.

Madam, Venezuela a few years ago decided to wage this battle within the United Nations by recognizing the United Nations, as members of it that we are, and lending it our voice, our thinking.

Our voice is an independent voice to represent the dignity and the search for peace and the reformulation of the international system; to denounce persecution and aggression of hegemonistic forces on the planet.

This is how Venezuela has presented itself. Bolivar's home has sought a nonpermanent seat on the Security Council.

Let's see. Well, there's been an open attack by the U.S. government, an immoral attack, to try and prevent Venezuela from being freely elected to a post in the Security Council.

The imperium is afraid of truth, is afraid of independent voices. It calls us extremists, but they are the extremists.

And I would like to thank all the countries that have kindly announced their support for Venezuela, even though the ballot is a secret one and there's no need to announce things.

But since the imperium has attacked, openly, they strengthened the convictions of many countries. And their support strengthens us.

Mercosur, as a bloc, has expressed its support, our brothers in Mercosur. Venezuela, with Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Uruguay, is a full member of Mercosur.

And many other Latin American countries, CARICOM, Bolivia have expressed their support for Venezuela. The Arab League, the full Arab League has voiced its support. And I am immensely grateful to the Arab world, to our Arab brothers, our Caribbean brothers, the African Union. Almost all of Africa has expressed its support for Venezuela and countries such as Russia or China and many others.

I thank you all warmly on behalf of Venezuela, on behalf of our people, and on behalf of the truth, because Venezuela, with a seat on the Security Council, will be expressing not only Venezuela's thoughts, but it will also be the voice of all the peoples of the world, and we will defend dignity and truth.

Over and above all of this, Madam President, I think there are reasons to be optimistic. A poet would have said "helplessly optimistic," because over and above the wars and the bombs and the aggressive and the preventive war and the destruction of entire peoples, one can see that a new era is dawning.

As Sylvia Rodriguez (ph) says, the era is giving birth to a heart. There are alternative ways of thinking. There are young people who think differently. And this has already been seen within the space of a mere decade. It was shown that the end of history was a totally false assumption, and the same was shown about Pax Americana and the establishment of the capitalist neo-liberal world. It has been shown, this system, to generate mere poverty. Who believes in it now?

What we now have to do is define the future of the world. Dawn is breaking out all over. You can see it in Africa and Europe and Latin America and Oceanea. I want to emphasize that optimistic vision.

We have to strengthen ourselves, our will to do battle, our awareness. We have to build a new and better world.

Venezuela joins that struggle, and that's why we are threatened. The U.S. has already planned, financed and set in motion a coup in Venezuela, and it continues to support coup attempts in Venezuela and elsewhere.

President Michelle Bachelet reminded us just a moment ago of the horrendous assassination of the former foreign minister, Orlando Letelier.

And I would just add one thing: Those who perpetrated this crime are free. And that other event where an American citizen also died were American themselves. They were CIA killers, terrorists.

And we must recall in this room that in just a few days there will be another anniversary. Thirty years will have passed from this other horrendous terrorist attack on the Cuban plane, where 73 innocents died, a Cubana de Aviacion airliner.

And where is the biggest terrorist of this continent who took the responsibility for blowing up the plane? He spent a few years in jail in Venezuela. Thanks to CIA and then government officials, he was allowed to escape, and he lives here in this country, protected by the government.

And he was convicted. He has confessed to his crime. But the U.S. government has double standards. It protects terrorism when it wants to.

And this is to say that Venezuela is fully committed to combating terrorism and violence. And we are one of the people who are fighting for peace.

Luis Posada Carriles is the name of that terrorist who is protected here. And other tremendously corrupt people who escaped from Venezuela are also living here under protection: a group that bombed various embassies, that assassinated people during the coup. They kidnapped me and they were going to kill me, but I think God reached down and our people came out into the streets and the army was too, and so I'm here today.

But these people who led that coup are here today in this country protected by the American government. And I accuse the American government of protecting terrorists and of having a completely cynical discourse.

We mentioned Cuba. Yes, we were just there a few days ago. We just came from there happily.

And there you see another era born. The Summit of the 15, the Summit of the Nonaligned, adopted a historic resolution. This is the outcome document. Don't worry, I'm not going to read it.

But you have a whole set of resolutions here that were adopted after open debate in a transparent matter – more than 50 heads of state. Havana was the capital of the south for a few weeks, and we have now launched, once again, the group of the nonaligned with new momentum.

And if there is anything I could ask all of you here, my companions, my brothers and sisters, it is to please lend your good will to lend momentum to the Nonaligned Movement for the birth of the new era, to prevent hegemony and prevent further advances of imperialism.

And as you know, Fidel Castro is the president of the nonaligned for the next three years, and we can trust him to lead the charge very efficiently.

Unfortunately they thought, "Oh, Fidel was going to die." But they're going to be disappointed because he didn't. And he's not only alive, he's back in his green fatigues, and he's now presiding the nonaligned.

So, my dear colleagues, Madam President, a new, strong movement has been born, a movement of the south. We are men and women of the south.

With this document, with these ideas, with these criticisms, I'm now closing my file. I'm taking the book with me. And, don't forget, I'm recommending it very warmly and very humbly to all of you.

We want ideas to save our planet, to save the planet from the imperialist threat. And hopefully in this very century, in not too long a time, we will see this, we will see this new era, and for our children and our grandchildren a world of peace based on the fundamental principles of the United Nations, but a renewed United Nations.

And maybe we have to change location. Maybe we have to put the United Nations somewhere else; maybe a city of the south. We've proposed Venezuela.

You know that my personal doctor had to stay in the plane. The chief of security had to be left in a locked plane. Neither of these gentlemen was allowed to arrive and attend the U.N. meeting. This is another abuse and another abuse of power on the part of the Devil. It smells of sulfur here, but God is with us and I embrace you all.

May God bless us all. Good day to you.

(APPLAUSE)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #6084471 - 09/20/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i wonder if its possible to get politcal assylum in venezuela??...and BTW..theres already a thread on this topic ..

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6081858/an/0/page/0


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #6084497 - 09/20/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I just think he should open up more and express his true feelings.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #6084868 - 09/20/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Was there really an applause at the General Assembly?


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: zorbman]
    #6085289 - 09/21/06 01:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
I just think he should open up more and express his true feelings.




Yes, ya really did get that feeling like he was holding back on what he really wanted to say didn't ya? :lol:

His speech reads more like a political comedy roast, not a General Assembly speech on the geopolitical concerns of the worlds national leaders.  :jawdrop:

Yes Bass, all the reports I have been reading say Chavez's speech was met with an uproar of applause.

I think that uproar of applause from global leaders should concern us U.S. citizens more then what Chavez had to say. Weather he is right or wrong, they apparently really liked and appreciated what he had to say.

Times are a changin!!!

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #6085977 - 09/21/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I want my "Bush is the Devil!" t-shirt!!


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:orly:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #6086235 - 09/21/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

GOP Funds Ahmadinejad-Chavez Speaking Tour
by Scott Ott

(2006-09-21) — The Republican National Committee (RNC) today offered to fund a coast-to-coast U.S. speaking tour featuring Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, in the weeks leading up to November’s Congressional elections.

The offer comes in the wake of two days of public remarks by the two foreign leaders before the United Nations, the Council on Foreign Relations and U.S. news media. Their diplomatic pronouncements included…
– denying the Holocaust,
– calling the U.S. president “the devil“,
– praying at the U.N. for the return of Islam’s fabled 12th Imam,
– praising Cuban dictator Fidel Castro,
– insisting any nation has the right to develop nuclear technology,
– portraying the United States as the locus of evil in the modern world, and
– plugging Noam Chomsky’s book “Hegemony or Survival: America’s Quest for Global Dominance.”

“President Bush can talk about his national security plan and foreign policy all day long,” said an unnamed RNC spokesman, “But no one makes a more compelling case than the duo of Mahmoud and Hugo. We want to make sure every American has an opportunity to hear these important world leaders.”

The Republican source said sponsoring the pre-election Ahmadinejad-Chavez speaking tour was also a way of “reaching across the aisle to help our colleagues in the Democrat party to get their message out, so the American voter can make an informed decision.”



http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2336



Phred


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6086308 - 09/21/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I think that uproar of applause from global leaders should concern us U.S. citizens more then what Chavez had to say. Weather he is right or wrong, they apparently really liked and appreciated what he had to say.

Times are a changin!!!




I really don't feel too concerned about applause for Chavez at the UN.

Think about how few nations at the UN actually matter, and what their reactions were. We know that China and India aren't coming out with huge displays or support, so that's 1/3 of humanity down. We also know that Chavez scares European leaders almost as much as he scares the US, and we know that Brazil's government wishes he would just go away.

See, the real problem with applause at the UN is the whole "one-country, one-delegate" rule. When you have a meeting of the General Assembly, then you have over 180 delegates present (the observers also get to sit in at the GA), and basically 120 of them are from countries that the US never needs to really care about. So what is Seychelles, Mauritious, or the Federated States of Micronesia are all vehement Chavez supporters? Does it really matter?

Personally, I feel very bad for the people of Venezuela, and I feel very bad for the people who try to follow his example (like Bolivia). We've seen time and time again what happens when a government decides to move towards extreme socialism, and it's never pretty. We already know that shortages of basic goods have started occuring in Venezuela, along with some losses in infrastructure. (you can read about it here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4599260.stm )

Basically, at Chavez's current clip, he probably has another 2 decades, at most, until Venezuela collapses under his ridiculous market controls, ever increasing military spending, and unsustainable social programs. It'll be like our own little "post-Soviet Russia" in the middle of South America. What's worse is that he's now getting other nations to follow him down. Bolivia probably won't turn out much better, and we all know Cuba's not going to recover in the near future.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Economist]
    #6086776 - 09/21/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If we attack Iran next and WW3 breaks out, can we feel so sure about who is going to side with us?

Tides turn quickly, ESPECIALLY, if Chavez succeeds at convincing other Nations the White house is looking to establish a one world order with themselves at the head of it and he is the "evil doer". (That expression sounds so corny coming out of our presidents mouth. I wish he would stop using it :tongue:)

If we end up initiating WW3 in the next 3 years, by invading Iran next, who knows how many current allies will turn on the U.S.?

How many countries can we be at war with at once and sustain ourselves until someone in the U.S. goes for another Hiroshima maneuver to get a handle on a potential global scale mess we launched.

I wouldn't feel at all concerned about the uproar of applause for Chavez's speech, if Bush wasn't threatening to invade Iran next.

Do you happen to know who currently supports Bush in an invasion of Iran? I don't know myself, but I don't like seeing support for the U.S. wain so much, that it's now, not only being made a mockery of at a U.N. General Assembly meeting, but that it garnered an uproar of applause as well.

Bush needs to cool his jets. Bush may be digging the U.S. into a hole deeper then it will be able to get itself out of.

Looking at the little nations from just an ecconomic perspective, sure, they have little power in that area. The little Nations of no concern, become one if it comes to WW3. Little Vietnam kicked our ass.

Venezuela and Iran, have oil money they can fund little Nations with in a world war against us. The little nations won't be too concerned about following Geneva Convention Laws of war ethics either.

Bush may have the blinders on wanting to keep Iran from being able to nuke Israel, and that may be very noble of him. I don't think he is able to see how tides are turning against us outside of his tunnel vision in the process.

Economist, would you, give a 5 years projection for us of global affairs if Bush invades Iran next? I'd like to see things how you are seeing them potentially going down. I gave a worst case scenario(better for trouble shooting preparations ahead of time if I need to cash out and head for the islands :lol: I hope for the best though). Give us a best case scenario if we invade Iran next, keeping it as close to realistic as possible.


:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6086989 - 09/21/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

This guy is a nutjob, however he could be a dangerous.....we will see.....like I stated before, look for closer ties with China:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5995291/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6087033 - 09/21/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

To begin with, the US is not going to launch a ground invasion of Iran.

The goal of a war with Iran will be to destroy their capacity to continue enriching uranium, will be fought entirely from the air, and will result in a US victory. Iran's ability to produce aircraft is still in its infancy, with most of their airforce still dependent on left-over Soviet fighters. Even the craft they can produce have notable limitations (based on older reverse-engineered US technology, speculated to only be capable of sub-sonic speeds).

If Iran was to somehow retaliate against US forces in Iraq or Afghanistan this would be problematic in one of two ways:

First, if Iran starts bombing/shelling/firing missiles into Iraq or Afghanistan they are going to begin losing the support of the population as civilian casualties mount.

Second, the US military on the ground, with superior air support, will overcome regular Iranian forces.

So, the only alternative would be for Iran to continue supporting and sponsoring insurgency and/or terrorism. However, as we have already seen, 3 years of non-stop insurgency have failed to cause outright organized fighting in Iraq, and it's doubtful that somehow organized fighting will spring up, especially if the Iraqi population percieves Iran as having been defeated militarily in an air war.

Finally, I think you are grossly over-estimating the ability of Iran and Venezuela to use petro-dollars to fund anything.

Even if Venezuela was able to seize 100% of the revenue from sales of its oil, which it currently can't because of contracts with foreign oil companies, and the money was combined with all of Iran's oil revenue, we're talking about a sum between $80 billion and $150 billion a year (depending on oil prices, exchange rates, etc.) Meanwhile, as we all know, the US under the Bush administration has been spending between $400 billion and $500 billion for every year in office.

Even under Clinton spending never dipped below $300 billion. At present it's simply impossible for Venezuela and Iran to fund an "alliance of little nations" to do anything against the US.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Economist]
    #6087048 - 09/21/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Whatever happens about nuclear war, do not worry for Bush. Dr. Strangelove has build perfect nest for comming days for his family.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Crobih]
    #6087149 - 09/21/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

im opposed to bush, and I think Chavez has been using that same view against us. While I agree with what he says, and I like what he talks about, he's a fucking actor.

He's got a law in his country that makes it a felony to talk bad about the government, or authority in general. I would prefer Bush over Chavez any day, however thats an unfair choice. If Chavez was running a peaceful country himself, I could see more to his speeches, however his policies are even worse than what we have here, so until that changes his opinions are moot to my ears.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: kotik]
    #6087795 - 09/21/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Hmh, I am neither great fun of Chavez as long as I do not know much about Venezuela. Though, I know something about Croatia and what does it mean when you have corrupted public workers that will sign/do anything for satisfying their lower astral greed personal from US establishment offer.

So, I am rather glad that Croatia did not sign bilateral agreement with US about war crimes issue, as long as that would be way too hypocritical. And when I see these media characters who would do anything to support and excuse US hypocritical proposals, I get rather pissed off.

As long as politics of US for some time has nothing to justice, equality, freedom nor anything that creates dignity in person, but quite contrary. So, I have some sympathy to Muslims as long as US administration has done too many bad things, not to feel pissed off as they are.

So, when Hugo Chavez talked in UN, using the same cheap shots as Bush does in his process of dehumanization of the whole political entities, I have to notice that some little sense of right and justice I felt. It might be people who applauded Hugo might eventually feel the same sensation.

Who knows? All in all, my perspective towards Hugo Chavez was based on my bad feeling against US establishment and the fact that many people feel same way, but they are too afraid to comment anything as long as this sort of commenting used to be digging a grave for politician.

Allende died that way, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto also, Sven Olof Palme also and who know how many more of sometimes really great people who used to be presidents who opposed US doing imperialistic shit around the World? If the hit list on presidents was that big, who knows how many little people did loose their lives because of too big consciousness to stand all that shit? Too many, not to applaud to a person who does not give a fuck for all the terroristic mechanisms "rulers of the world" do.

So, I do applaud to this funny lunatic Chavez. I do not expect his deed will change anything, but that applause maybe will.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Crobih]
    #6087826 - 09/21/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

PS. US establishment I find not much more corrupted than British, or German, or France, or Russian. The only problem is that this level of corruption with no virtual enemies becomes rather dangerous mixture. Much more dangerous than any lunatic, from Saddam, through Kim Jong-il, to Chavez could ever be thanks to their power position.

So, that is the reason I am neither interested into Izrael conflict (that would not last 5 years if there was no US establishment involved), nor inter-muslim conflicts (that would stay tribe wars in lack of grand common enemy), nor conflicts in Africa, nor anywhere else. There is just no point to be focused on the symptoms when the source of the real problem is rather easily noticed.

And what is the most funny, US establishment makes its people dependent on imperialistic, cancer issues, while in the same time big monopolies destroy free enterprise that built America.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Crobih]
    #6087860 - 09/21/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Crobih said:
So, that is the reason I am neither interested into Izrael conflict (that would not last 5 years if there was no US establishment involved), nor inter-muslim conflicts (that would stay tribe wars in lack of grand common enemy), nor conflicts in Africa, nor anywhere else. There is just no point to be focused on the symptoms when the source of the real problem is rather easily noticed.

And what is the most funny, US establishment makes its people dependent on imperialistic, cancer issues, while in the same time big monopolies destroy free enterprise that built America.




What a load of bull.  Yeah, the US is responsible for all the problems everyhere, sure... :rolleyes:

You can go ahead and continue to blame the US for actions they took to oppose the Soviet Union, pretending that the real threat (the Soviets) had nothing to do with it.  You can blame mismanagement by governments the world over on "US Imperialism" instead of the governments that actually make the mistakes.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Economist]
    #6087881 - 09/21/06 07:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Economist. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to understand things I write. It is only up to your intelectual dignity are you going to accept them or not. Nothing else, I am affraid.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Economist]
    #6087952 - 09/21/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for sharing a best case scenario if we go into Iran next. I hope you're right and I hope for the best like I said. :sun:

It seems you do equate the ability to defeat an enemy by who has the larger war budget and more expensive war toys I see. Why couldn't the U.S. defeat the little North Vietenmese in the ten years they tried too before coming to a stale mate?

My husband was just telling me that Ted Turner was on the tele last night saying sort of the same thing, something to the effect of, we have all of these Expensive War ships and huge military spending  and can't take out some rebels in Iraq? What a waste of money"

I'm not sure if big war budgets secure quick wins against little scrappers.

Some of these little scrappy Nations/militant groups fight differently then we do and their ignorance (ignoring) of the Geneva Convention Laws can give them untold advantages.  Not to mention, because of their poverty levels, they have crazy amounts of people willing to go fight against us, either for money, or because they have nothing better going on in their lives.

They could start popping out of the wood work from everywhere if WWW3 breaks out over our "Air striking" Iran.

An example taken from a myth busting web-site on the viet nam war.

Quote:

The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations. From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 South Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and schoolteachers




The little guys don't play by our rules and get an advantage.

I also want to ask, if scrapper militant/terrorist groups in Iraq haven't been able to form a worthy fighting force against the U.S. as you say, why are we still still over there? It should be wrapped up right now just as simply as you say our air Strike on Iran will be. How can you be so sure of that when this Iraq war has gone on for longer then Bush first thought it would?

I'm asking because I want to understand better where you are coming from.

Do you know off the top of your head, what other Nations, besides Israel, would support us in an air strike on Iran?


Nice Post Kotik. :thumbup:


Yes SirTripsAlot, regardless if Chavez is right or wrong, nuts our sound, he holds an audience of the worlds national leaders and they greatly applauded what he had to say against Bush and the White House Administration.  We, the little shroomerites with next to no global power but our votes, can ignore or brush him off as crazy or a hypocrite, a guy with a lot of balls, or even sound and speaking truths though to small to care about, and so what?

The UN, took him seriously enough to give him an uproar of applause, and the UN is the freaking UN, not that Bush pays them any mind anymore:lol: It makes you wonder what he knows that we don't if he can flip his nose at them. 

How much weight do you all think the U.S. really has on this planet to push others around with?

U.S. vs the Planet, who wins?

U.S. and China vs the planet, who wins?

Who has to be against us before some of you will say "OH SHIT!, Bush went to far now?

Just curious. I don't follow this stuff as much as some of you do.

I'm wondering if any reports have come out from other Nations besides the U.S. criticizing Chavez's speech. Anyone come across any yet?

I'll google search it now and share what I find if anything.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6088076 - 09/21/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
It seems you do equate the ability to defeat an enemy by who has the larger war budget and more expensive war toys I see. Why couldn't the U.S. defeat the little North Vietenmese in the ten years they tried too before coming to a stale mate?

My husband was just telling me that Ted Turner was on the tele last night saying sort of the same thing, something to the effect of, we have all of these Expensive War ships and huge military spending and can't take out some rebels in Iraq? What a waste of money"

I'm not sure if big war budgets secure quick wins against little scrappers.



The problem in Vietnam was two fold:

First, the biggest problem was the constant fear of Chinese involvement if the US invaded North Vietnam. North Vietnam couldn't be invaded, only bombed, so the source of the insurgency in South Vietnam wouldn't go away.

The second problem was the lack of legitimacy of the US-backed government.

There probably wasn't a good solution to Vietnam, as China probably would have been involved if we invaded North Vietnam, meanwhile the Soviets kept paying people to destabilize South Vietnam, so self-government became very difficult to pull off.

Iraq is a problem because we thought that the Iraqi people would spontaneously build themselves a government.

But that's just it, none of this would happen in Iran. We wouldn't even have to change the regime.

The ONLY goal in a war with Iran would be to remove their capacity to enrich uranium. If we took out all of their nuclear facilities, we've achieved our goals and can call it a day. Nothing beyond that would really matter.

Also, while "little scrappers" are very good at terrorist bombings, and damaging infrastructure, they can't protect locations for crap, so we wouldn't really need to worry about their ability to prevent us from destroying their nuclear facilities.

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: Opinions on Chavez speech at the General Assembly? [Re: Economist]
    #6088267 - 09/21/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If you meet a Venezuelan that immigrated here since 99.. ask them if they left Venezuela because they were looking for opportunity or because they wanted to get away from Chavez.. then report back here please.

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