|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
|
More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs
#6087093 - 09/21/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5369198.stm
Quote:
The United States threatened to bomb Pakistan "back to the stone age" unless it joined the fight against al-Qaeda, President Pervez Musharraf says.
General Musharraf said the warning was delivered by former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage to Pakistan's intelligence director.
"I think it was a very rude remark," Mr Musharraf told CBS television.
Pakistan agreed to side with the US, but Gen Musharraf said it did so based on his country's national interest.
"One has to think and take actions in the interest of the nation, and that's what I did," he said.
'Ludicrous' requests
The extracts from the CBS show 60 Minutes, which will run on Sunday, were released on the same day that the White House praised Pakistan for its co-operation in America's "war on terror".
Gen Musharraf is due to meet US President George W Bush at the White House on Friday.
Protest in Islamabad The US allegedly ordered Pakistan to crush dissent
The Pakistani president said that, following the attacks of 11 September 2001, the US made some "ludicrous" demands of Pakistan.
"The intelligence director told me that Mr Armitage said, 'Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the Stone Age'," he said.
The US envoy also insisted that Pakistan suppress domestic expression of support for attacks on the United States, he said.
"If somebody's expressing views, we cannot curb the expression of views," Gen Musharraf said.
Mr Armitage also allegedly demanded that Pakistan allow the US to use its border posts as staging points for the war on Afghanistan.
Pakistan's support was considered crucial in the defeat of Afghanistan's Taleban government, which Pakistan had helped to bring to power.
President Musharraf has proved a loyal ally though many now will question the means used to extract the co-operation, says the BBC's US state department correspondent Jonathan Beale.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6087301 - 09/21/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
The pawns are set in place, guarding each other.
The knights are ready to invade.
The bishops are aiming at the target.
The Rooks are positioned to strike.
The Queen is dead.
And the King has gone mad.
--------------------
|
Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11,293
Loc: Ythan's house
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6088388 - 09/21/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Stalemate
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6088764 - 09/21/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I don't see any reason to believe Musharraf's word.
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 2 months, 5 days
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Redstorm]
#6089522 - 09/22/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Redstorm said: I don't see any reason to believe Musharraf's word.
because he has absolutely nothing to gain by lying?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6089887 - 09/22/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I could picture Armitage in an SS uniform for sure.
I think that'd be a good look for him.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
|
Economist
in training


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6090125 - 09/22/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bug said: because he has absolutely nothing to gain by lying?
He took A LOT of domestic flak for supporting the US, especially when the Pakistani army and the Tribal groups began to exchange fire. A very easy way to deflect the negative pressure would be to blame his actions on the US, especially since the tribal peoples and their supporters tend to already hate the US and blame all their problems on the US anyway.
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Economist]
#6090181 - 09/22/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
He took A LOT of domestic flak for supporting the US..
So why didn't he reveal this domestically?
Do they not have newspapers in Pakistan?
Instead he made this statement on 60 minutes- a taped US tv show.
And why did his statement come out just prior to his meeting in Washington if his purpose was to "deflect negative domestic pressure"?
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6090234 - 09/22/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger


Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 16 years, 20 days
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6090313 - 09/22/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Why is it that people dismiss anything that US officials say as "propaganda" or "lies", but take everything that foreign officials say as gospel?
-------------------- You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6090454 - 09/22/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Armitage has admitted being the source who outed Valerie Plame in the CIA leak investigation so this type of behavior seems to be in keeping with his record of intimidation.
So personally I find Musharraf's claim very easy to believe.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
|
Economist
in training


Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zorbman]
#6090535 - 09/22/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, I just don't know what to think.
On the one hand, I still believe that part of the reason was to try and deflect negative pressure from home. Let's be honest, 60 minutes was a better place to do that than a Pakistani paper. When something is reported by US News Media, the rest of the world tends to listn more than they do when it's reported by media that is known to support Islamic extremist views (which pretty much describes all Pakistani newspapers). Of course, it's still a little odd that we've never heard of this before, especially back in 2004, when he was really under pressure.
But then, that brings us to the book deal. Specifically this excerpt from CNN:
"Musharraf was asked Friday about the CBS report, but he said he couldn't talk about it because of a legal agreement with his publisher before the release of his new memoir next week. "I am honor bound to Simon & Schuster not to comment on the book" before it's published, he said." (available here: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/22/bush.musharraf/index.html )
So, he makes an outrageous claim that we've never heard before, on the eve of releasing a book in the US, then says "I can't talk about it, buy my book,"
And we haven't gotten wind of this before, even when he was in real hot water back in 2004 and needed to cut a deal with the tribal peoples, and he REALLY could have used a scapegoat...
I can't prove it's untrue, and it certainly wouldn't be out of character for those involved, but something fishy is definitely going on...
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Economist]
#6090566 - 09/22/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
This is old news.
This is what he should have said....
United States threatened to bomb his country if it did not cooperate with America's war campaign against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: lonestar2004]
#6090581 - 09/22/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
We were going to attck Afghanistan no matter what.
Pakistan could either help us, or, we would not be responsible for US coalition attacks on Pakistani soil in pursuit of the murderous bastards. If Pakistan took up arms, then we would bomb the shit out of them.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Economist]
#6090648 - 09/22/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
So, he makes an outrageous claim that we've never heard before, on the eve of releasing a book in the US, then says "I can't talk about it, buy my book,
If Armitage's threat was made, and I have every reason to believe it was given his history, then Musharraf's behavior in relation to the book is very understandable. It is standard practice in the publishing industry to tease and withhold the juicier bits for those who buy the book. It's smart marketing and was likely a condition Musharraf had to agree to in order to get the book published.
Personally, if a bully like Armitage made that kind of threat to me, I would find a way to extract a pound of flesh from that person. I might say to myself, "Screw him. One day I'm going to write a book about this. I'm going to expose this cretin and make a ton of money in the process."
Good for Pervy I say.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Economist]
#6090915 - 09/22/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
bug said: because he has absolutely nothing to gain by lying?
He took A LOT of domestic flak for supporting the US, especially when the Pakistani army and the Tribal groups began to exchange fire. A very easy way to deflect the negative pressure would be to blame his actions on the US, especially since the tribal peoples and their supporters tend to already hate the US and blame all their problems on the US anyway.
The man with the defense department who had the conversation with Musaraf, was just being interviewed on Tucker clarifying what was said.
He said, he told Mus that Pakistan was either with the U.S or against it, and that the war on terror is a balack and white issue with the american people.
That clearly is just the same as saying, "You either co-operate with us and do what we tell you to, or become our enemy in the war on terror."
Sounds pretty thuggish to me.
I feel bad for the guy in one respect. He's got his people who hate the U.S in his face to the right and the U.S in his face hating those people to the left. I would so hop on a plane to Fiji and let them all duke it out with each other, if I were him about now.
The U.S gave him no reasonable choice-
Be our bitch or be our enemy. 
And reality check. All Americans are not behind what he said to Musaraf and see it as a black and white issue.
Even if any of you are behind what the U.S. said and see it as black and white, you at least know, not all Americans are or do see it that way. Saying that to Musaraf only served to mislead and intimidate him further about where Americans stand as a whole.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zorbman]
#6091416 - 09/22/06 07:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zorbman said: Armitage has admitted being the source who outed Valerie Plame in the CIA leak investigation so this type of behavior seems to be in keeping with his record of intimidation.
So personally I find Musharraf's claim very easy to believe.
There seem to be some misconceptions associated with Mr. Armitage.
He is a career State Department official and has served under several administrations. The State Department is no fan of our beloved Cowboy-in-Chief Armitage could have outed himself long ago over this but kept his mouth shut. Why? Two reasons. 1. It fueled damaging speculation that an administration official did it vindictively, thus damaging the administration 2. Fitzgerald, who knew who it was from day one, couldn't continue his fishing expedition.
If I was Bush, I would have demanded his resignation, as promised. Since the dumb cunt was not an undercover agent at the time of the revelation, there was no crime in revealing her identity. Nonetheless, the only assault here was on the Bush administration and the State Department is supposed to be subserviant to the dictates of the administration. Thus, he should be cashiered with extreme ignominy for not 'fessing up in public right away.
Armitage is a swine and Musharaf is in constant peril of assassination by America haters and others. It is no surprise that he wants to make some cover for supporting our efforts with his own benighted population.
--------------------
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zappaisgod]
#6092353 - 09/23/06 01:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
He [Armitage] is a career State Department official
The State Department is no fan of our beloved Cowboy-in-Chief
Armitage served his entire career in the State Department?
Funny..I also seem to remember him serving in the Defense department and the Navy prior to that.
Am I mistaken?
Wasn't this creep, the Valerie Plame exposer, also involved with the Project for the New American Century (PNAC)- the most prominant neocon organization?
Are neocons generally considered "fans" of President Bush?
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (09/23/06 03:13 AM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zorbman]
#6093524 - 09/23/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zorbman said:
Quote:
He [Armitage] is a career State Department official
The State Department is no fan of our beloved Cowboy-in-Chief
Armitage served his entire career in the State Department?
I didn't say that nor does "career official" mean that. It just means that he has been there through more than one administrationQuote:
Funny..I also seem to remember him serving in the Defense department and the Navy prior to that.
Yeah, and the previous secretary of state was a general and chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. If you have a point make itQuote:
Am I mistaken?
About many things but I still don't see your pointQuote:
Wasn't this creep, the Valerie Plame exposer, also involved with the Project for the New American Century (PNAC)- the most prominant neocon organization?
Yes. You do know that there was nothing to expose about Valerie Plame don't you? Except maybe her pert and perky breasts. She was a drive in desk jockey at Langley. No secret there. That's why Fitzgerald didn't bring any charges. You do know that, don't you? I think he's a fucking creep for not admitting he told Novak years ago, and wasting millions of dollars and time on a fucking witch hunt that had no witches. Pretty creepy indeed.Quote:
Are neocons generally considered "fans" of President Bush?
Surprisingly, they are generally not convinced that Bush is anywhere near neocon enough. Nor am I.
--------------------
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6094105 - 09/23/06 07:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Okay. So we have established that Armitage is a long-time Republican functionary and a neocon with a history of intimidation.

Now that we know a little more about this man people can judge for themselves whether reports by President Musharraf that he made a bullying threat against Pakistan are believable.
Personally, I think he looks like a pussycat.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (09/24/06 02:34 AM)
|
psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: Lion]
#6095044 - 09/24/06 05:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
If this is true, I would not expect much less to be honest.
Pakistan is a military dictatorship that helped create the Taliban, has admitted being involved in a international nuclear black-market, and then denied access to the main player, Dr. Khan.
Was an international training and funding center for extreme Islam and militant Jihadis, and still is.
I think they got off very lightly.
However I think, actually 'bombing them back to the stone age' would have been extemely dangerous and counter productive.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zorbman]
#6095216 - 09/24/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zorbman said: Okay. So we have established that Armitage is a long-time Republican functionary and a neocon with a history of intimidation.
No, we have not. He is a diplomat who also served during the Clinton administration. He may be a neo-con but I don't see the history of intimidation established here, although he may well have one. "Outing" Valerie Plame certainly doesn't qualify as intimidation. Armitage is no friend of the Bushies and the "victim" in that whole thing seems to be the upper levels of the Bush admiinistration, who had to deal with endless and groundless speculation that they did something wrong, when Armitage could have 'fessed up anytime. Diplos Gone Wild! Next we'll be seeing his perky breasts on Youtube.

Now that we know a little more about this man people can judge for themselves whether reports by President Musharraf that he made a bullying threat against Pakistan are believable.
Personally, I think he looks like a pussycat.
What's wrong with bullying a thug anyway? He may be a thug but at least he's helping. The whole idea that we threatened to bomb Pakistan "back to the stone age" is absurd. I don't think we could do it without nukes and they have them too. I certainly doubt Musharaf would be cowed by any kind of absurd threat as that. He didn't get to be President of Pakistan bby being a pussy.
--------------------
|
musicturkey
Mitakuye Oyasin


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 303
Loc: MidWest
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zappaisgod]
#6096001 - 09/24/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
very good point
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zappaisgod]
#6096366 - 09/24/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
He is a diplomat who also served during the Clinton administration.
Armitage managed to be held over into the Clinton administration but only served a few brief weeks there, leaving due to policy disagreements.
The vast majority of his time in public life has been served under Republican administrations.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
|
gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
|
Re: More proof that our gov't. is run by thugs [Re: zappaisgod]
#6096450 - 09/24/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
What's wrong with bullying a thug anyway?
Nothing is wrong with being a bully thug if you work for the mob.
It's not about judging thuggish behavior in itself. Armitage works for the U.S.A.
The problem is that the U.S. says, it works to instill democracy around the globe in places that don't have it.
Who is going to believe in the U.S. if its "instiller's of democracy", do not make requests for assistance in the cause, in a diplomatic manor.
If we have to start making threats to do it, then, we become an example of the dictator model we say, we are out to abolish. The U.S. government ends up looking like liars, phonies and hypocrites. It's no surprise so many Americans and people around the globe don't trust their words and view it as rhetoric these days.
They should have sent Powell in to have had that talk with Musharraf instead.
I just heard on 60 minutes that, the threat happened before we first invaded Afghanistan. It's only coming out now because it is in Musharafs new book being released. Bad timing for the U.S. after Chavez's speech.
Here's where I change my tune and blow all of this off as book selling hype.
Considering the U.S. was planning to invade Afghanistan and launch a war on terror and even declared to the globe the words "You are either with us or against us". We all heard what Musharaf was told in private by Armitage, as it was publicly stated (threatened)as well, to everyone on the planet.
Had Musharaf not agreed to help root out terrorist in his country, we would've bombed them too. Armitage just gave him a chance to co-operate before they did that.
The thing is, that private discussion had nothing to do with a democracy mission. It had to do with declarations of war and yes, those are going to be threatening. If you intend to bomb someone, I suppose it is nicer to give them a chance to avoid it first. The thing is, there is nothing democratic about bombing people in retaliation though.
Yeah American Democracy at play!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
|
zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
|
|
Unless a recording was made of the conversation no one will ever know for sure whether the crude threat was made.
Let me make a confession.. I am proud to be an American. And I do not want a low class SOB representing my country- especially someone who claims to be a diplomat. When you bring the flag of this country, when you represent this nation you better bring some class along with it, you better bring your A-game, mister. Because you represent more than just a political administration passing through- you represent an entire nation.
Be worthy of that awesome responsibility or find your porcine ass another line of work.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
Edited by zorbman (09/26/06 01:42 AM)
|
|