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OfflineParticleMan
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Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 240
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
homo + homo = hetero ????
    #608479 - 04/14/02 11:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

couldnt resist the title :-)

so i take a trip to my local library and check out the card catalog, expecting nothing much but maybe a title or two on mushrooms. I find about 15 matches, 12 of which looked intresting to me. Being as paranoid as I am (I lurked for about 2 months before posting) I decided that i didnt need to check them out on my card. I sat down and skimmed a few of the books to see what they had to offer. While I found much of the information intresting, I could not find a whole lot that i found directly related to my current efforts. One thing that did intrest me was what looked like to be culturing two different types of mushrooms (monokaryons) on agar (in the same manner Josh does to save space, but with different types) and seeing if they fused to form a heterokaryon or formed a wall in the middle. From what i understand this is what combines the two to form these "hybrid" strains. I was wondering if anyone had any more information on this topic? Is the fusion just guess and check? or is there some sort of method to predict when they will fuse? what is produced from a fusion? is it indeed a "hybrid"? or is it only isolation.....but backwards, menaing they would have to be the same strain? I am taking a trip back tomorrow to get a little more in depth but thought people would like to talk about it. :-)


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OfflineParticleMan
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Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 240
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ParticleMan]
    #608864 - 04/15/02 10:15 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

hmmmm........


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"the weekend has landed all that exists now is clubs,drugs, pubs, and parties" - Human Traffic


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Anonymous

Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ParticleMan]
    #609453 - 04/15/02 10:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hybrids can be formed two ways without any biotechnology.
1. As you described. Isolate monokaryons of two distinct strains and combine them to see if they mate. Monokaryons grow slowly, and a mating will result in a fast growing third mycelial body growing from the zone of contact. With cubensis, clamp connections will be present, and visible under a microscope. This hybrid will have to be isolated and tested for fruitability.

2. Two distinct Dikaryons can be isolated and placed on a single petri. When the two grow together, there will be a distinct zone of non-growth. If you are lucky, over many attempts with many Dikaryons, a third type can appear originating from the zone of contact. This would be a hybrid of the two dikaryons that were present, resulting in a third distinct Dikaryon. This process is called Anastomosis.
This occurs at a higher frequency within a single spore race(EQ,GT,....) then will occur between two spore races(EQ+GT).

Isolating Monokaryons involves extreme spore dilution, and many duplications. Problems can arrise with partial compatability. This means two monokaryons can unite, but result in a non-fruiting Dikaryon.



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Anonymous

Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ]
    #609459 - 04/15/02 11:07 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Mating types:
A1B1
A1B2 : monokaryons(germinated spores)
A2B1
A2B2

To get a fruiting strain A1B1 has to mate with A2B2 resulting in A1A2B1B2. The fruiting Dikaryon.
Problems: A1B2 can mate with A2B2, A1B1 can mate with A1B2. These do not result in fruiting Dikaryons.

This is Heterothallic, tetrapolar breeding system. The simplistic explanation.


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OfflineALHOFF177A17
DoWn RU?

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 241
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ]
    #609502 - 04/16/02 12:31 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Dood as far as I know mushrooms have DNA also. DNA is a double helix composing of two monokaryons once joined they cant join with any others. Its like when the little sperm runs into the egg and begins to digest through the little wall at the same time as 50 other sperm, only one can make it. I would assume that if more than one sperm made it through you would no longer have 24 cromosomes you would have 36 that wont fly too well. One thing is that with monokaryotic mycellium it can mate with more than one other monokaryon because it is a new complete mycellium that is formed leaving the monokaryotic mycellium unchanged.
So if you put 4 spores on a agar plate assuming they all germinate they all can mate with each other (Assuming they are all copatable) creating as many as 6 dikaryons.


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OfflineParticleMan
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Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 240
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ]
    #609503 - 04/16/02 12:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

thanks alot, i knew the guru's out there wouldnt fail me :-) my most recent trip and this information is really turning out to be pretty cool. i got into this just to get some "shrooms" but now i think it will be a lifetime hobby, even growing edibles.........this is more addictive than smoking....ok maybe not, BUT CLOSE!

i am still far from any complete understanding, but getting closer by the minute! i am hoping to catch up my backround knowledge with some of the methods i am using to ...... watch people cultivate.

(EDIT) : ALH posted at the same time as me, that info doesnt sound right does it? for now i will reserve guru statue for teonan..... ALH that will remain to be seen :-)


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___________________________________________________________
"the weekend has landed all that exists now is clubs,drugs, pubs, and parties" - Human Traffic


Edited by ParticleMan (04/16/02 01:25 AM)


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OfflinestonErollEr1
The Psilocybinsolution
Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 666
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ParticleMan]
    #609851 - 04/16/02 11:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Listen to Teoian..

peace
//stonErollEr


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ParticleMan]
    #609868 - 04/16/02 11:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)



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Anonymous

Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: ALHOFF177A17]
    #610382 - 04/14/02 07:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Actually this is way over simplified. DNA is not exchanged, at the nuclear level.
Dikaryotic mycelium possesses a haploid nuclei from each mating type existing side by side, not fused. Only after undergoing Karyogomy do the NUCLEI combine.
A hybrid between two different strains just means a A1B1 from one strain is coexisting with a A2B2 from another strain. This can occur during plasmogomy (mating) of monokaryons or during anastomosis of Dikaryons. Anastomosis would not be a nuclear exchange, it would be a Nuclei exchange. An entire haploid nuclei would be replaced with another, resulting in a binucleate dikaryon. Only half of one dikaryon is being absorbed, not both nuclei.

Imagine a dikaryon with A1B1 and A2B2 nuclei running into a false dikaryon with A1B2 and A1B1 nuclei. If the A1B2 nuclei is dropped and replaced with A2B2 nuclei from the functional Dikaryon, you now have Anastomosis occuring, and a non-functional Diakryon has been rewired to be functional!!!

Dikaryon is binucleate, both nuclei are haploid.

All it means in it's most simplified explanation is the A factors and the B factors have to be different to form a FRUITING DIKARYON. This is compatability.
There are MANY A factors and many B factors, not just 2.
A1a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,etc.... A2a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,etc.... Even these can have differing factors A1a1,2,3,4,5,etc... A2a1,2,3,4,5etc...

In the study of Schizophyllum commune, a tetrapolar, heterothallic fungus, they found approx. 450 A factors and 90 B factors, and these can be broken down into 2 different loci, each with multiple alleles. The variety is Way beyond the simplistic notion of four mating types.
The key to the simplification is A1B1 will mate with A2B2, if the A factors and the B factors are different, they can mate to form a FRUITING DIKARYON.

Don't think of the initial hybrid in Fertilization terms. It is a fungus not an animal or a plant. In this type of fungus, Psilocybe cubensis, the nuclei remain seperate from eachother, working in harmony as one. Each responsible for different stages of developement. Only in the basidium(sexual organ) do these nuclei combine under Karyogomy to become DIPLOID. It is for but a breif moment, and then they quickly undergo meiosis and are reduced to the haploid state again. Spores.

The NUCLEI are HAPLOID, not DIPLOID. So there is no problem with ( Karyogomay)fusion of these Haploid Nuclei.

Assuming you have four different spores on a single plate.
A1B1
A2B1
A1B2
A2B2
The only dikaryon that will result in Fruiting is the one formed by A1B1 and A2B2, this is a compatable mating, because they monokaryons differ in both factors A and B.
A1B1 will mate with A2B1, because the A factors differ, but this is not a fertile match as it stands.


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Anonymous

Re: homo + homo = hetero ???? [Re: Anno]
    #610409 - 04/14/02 08:25 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Nice link ANNO, as usual.


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