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StroFun
Repeater

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 977
Loc: Mycotopia.net
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Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside
#6077918 - 09/19/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/bush...e_olbermann.htm
video available at web page
Olbermann: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside'
David Edwards / Raw Story | September 18 2006
Keith Olbermann's Friday broadcast on MSNBC featured a long look at the President's contentious Rose Garden press conference on Friday, dubbing it the "Roast Garden," and then pondered whether Bush's urgency to redefine the Geneva Convention had more to do with "covering his own backside" than anything else.
At a Friday press conference, an animated President Bush tells reporters that the U.S. program to interrogate terrorist suspects will not continue unless Congress creates new legal definitions for Common Article 3 or the Geneva Conventions -- a move that has alarmed some GOP senators and former Secretary of State Colin Powell.
Bush also devoted his Saturday radio address to the issue.
In video of the Friday presser, a visibly angry President raises his voice as responds to reporters' questions.
NBC White House Correspondent David Gregory asks the President how he would react if American officers were interrogated based on another country's own re-interpreted version of the Geneva Conventions. Without answering the question, Bush says, "We can debate this issue all we want but the practical matter is if our professionals do not have clear standards in the law, the program will not go forward."
Further pressed by Gregory for an answer, Bush raises his voice and says, "You can ask this question all you want but the bottom line is -- and the American people have got to understand this -- that this program won't go forward... if there are vague standards applied like those in Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. It's just not going to go forward. Now, perhaps some in Congress don't think the program is important. That's fine."
Afterward, Georgetown University Constitutional Law Professor Jonathan Turley joined Keith Olbermann for a discussion on why the president was in such a hurry to get the legislation passed "his way."
Turley agreed with Olbermann that Bush's primary motive might be in "covering his own backside."
Turley noted that the 14 high level detainees recently transferred to Guantanamo Bay are due to be interviewed by the Red Cross, and that "most people believe that they will reveal that they were subject to water boarding - held under water until you think that you are going to drown - that is undeniably torture under the international standard."
"I think that the Administration senses that there is a lot of trouble coming down the mountain," said Turley.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: StroFun]
#6078206 - 09/19/06 02:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Turley noted that the 14 high level detainees recently transferred to Guantanamo Bay are due to be interviewed by the Red Cross, and that "most people believe that they will reveal that they were subject to water boarding - held under water until you think that you are going to drown - that is undeniably torture under the international standard."
Is that true about the water boarding? If it is, no wonder he wants to cover his own ass. That would be considered torture.
I realize we picture terrorist scum being tortured and probably many don't care. If the U.S. sets a precedent for such interrogation acts, how do you all feel about American soldiers, or your own countries soldiers being interrogated with the water board method?
Just curious.
Not that I have strong opinions about torture methods being use in war or not. I think the idea of their being rules to attacks and defence "war" is hysterical. How can war ever be civilized? The minute one goes to attack another with violence, they have already lost all of their civility. The minute one has to defend themselves from such an attack, they are no longer living within a civilized environment themselves and all gloves should be able to come off.
War is never a civilized act, and any means to civilize it fall under the header "oxy moron", IMHO.
The only civilized way to go about getting what you want in this world is through coming to mutual agreements through discussion and compromise.
At a progressive school my daughter went to for a time before we moved, they had a way of dealing with disputes. The two parties were brought to a white table where a trained adult mediator would help both of the children discuss the problem until both walked away feeling better understood, satisfied and friends again. It always worked whenever they had to use it. By the time 4th grade rolled around, the white tables in the class rooms were never used. The kids in the school learned how to use communication skills, not violence, to solve problems before they graduated the 6th grade.
We need more schools like that one across the globe. Longwood Elementary, Naperville Illinois has got it going on. They have a Zero tolerance bully program, headed by a progressive Principle. And it's nice to know, other schools in the district started modeling themselves after the program. Maybe some day, it will spread across the globe.
Pretty screwed up that $50,000 a year grade school teachers and children have "living as a civilized people" better figured out then wealthy grown men with power and social titles of influence do. How does that happen?
I think the Geneva Convention/NATO needs to some world leaders back to grade school in Naperville Illinois. 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6078601 - 09/19/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey, naperville. I know that area...
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6078991 - 09/19/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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i'd rather be drowned than be hung from my wrists behind my back and beaten to death infront of my family after watching a few of them get their heads sawn off
i think i'd torture enemies for awhile if i knew the enemy was doing that to my mates and i wouldnt be 'water boarding'them,i'd use my imagination too and above all i wouldnt let anyone film it
i watched the 'colour of war' the other night and a soldier shot a half dead jap soldier dead and i thought 'thats how you do it'
thats war
famous battle cry "take no prisoners"~lawrence of arabia oh the shock oh the horror!
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: quiver]
#6079164 - 09/19/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
"take no prisoners"~lawrence of arabia
If war is ones objective then, I agree. Like I said, I don't understand rules that attempt to make war civilized-no such thing. OXY MORON it is.
True, drowning is a lot less worse then other torture methods, but it would still suck, wanting to gasp for air when you're out and you can't.
The point of the article is, that it would be considered torture (mild as it is by comparison)under the Geneva Convention Laws. If that is what has been going on, then Bush is back tracking to save his ass. I don't know if its true or not though that they use water boarding.
Yes Bio, ever been out to Napervilles Riverwalk for dinner and stroll? It's nice there. The town is pretty progressive in a lot of ways.

edit -typos
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (09/19/06 06:18 PM)
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Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6079204 - 09/19/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've been there, yes. Not sure if I would consider that Republican stronghold "progressive." Naperville is Wheaton-lite. They do have a decent school system due to the incredibly high property taxes. The schools can afford programs and to hire top teachers and administration.
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quiver
freedrug


Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6079249 - 09/19/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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exactly
we wouldnt even be able to burn out fox holes and pill boxes with flamethrowers cause it might burn someone 
its all a joke
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: Vvellum]
#6079719 - 09/19/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
bi0 said: I've been there, yes. Not sure if I would consider that Republican stronghold "progressive." Naperville is Wheaton-lite. They do have a decent school system due to the incredibly high property taxes. The schools can afford programs and to hire top teachers and administration.
I'd call Wheaton Hinsdale-Lite and Naperville Oakbrook-lite.
Wheaton isn't progressive I'll agree with that.
Where you have money you do have more opprotunity to take progressive action in good ways with it and, I say Kudos to them for doing it where they do like with spending tax dollars on Zero Tolernance Bully programs in the schools, and in the private sector, there has been a strong movement towards alternative healthcare in that town-Oak Brook and Hinsdale too, which was a nice surprise to find.
regarding naperville, in the same light they want civilised children who don't have to resort to violence to solve problems, they also are turning away from the violence of the scalpal and prescription drugs where its not neccesary.
Yes, they have their materilistic, screw you if it means I get ahead snobs too. (That must be the republican sectors with the strong hold you speak of )

-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: quiver]
#6079969 - 09/19/06 08:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
quiver said: exactly
we wouldnt even be able to burn out fox holes and pill boxes with flamethrowers cause it might burn someone <img src="https://files.shroomery.org/smileys/lol.gif" alt=" " title=" "/>
its all a joke
Funny example and it is a joke.
"We can fill you full of shrapnel, blow your legs off, douse you with na palm and agent orange, but we can't drown you because we are civilized and fight fair and respect humane rights. Do they listen to themselves talk at NATO Meetings?
Glad I'm not the only one civilized war fare sounds oxy moronic too. Civilized warfare to me just means modern barbarians are wearing ties and head turbans made of silk and they send their armies out to fight for them, while they hide when under attack so they don't have to ruin their $80 dollar manicures. Bunch of little girls we have waging wars, I tell ya. Where are the George Washington's who ride out in front of their armies into the battle fields?
If your going to play Cave Man and wage barbaric wars, then be barbaric about it. No one is fooling anyone with the suits and humanities laws.
If you're going to grow up and be a mature civilized leader of a Nation in the modern world, use diplomatic discussions already and don't leave the table until all parties in conflict have come to mutual understandings and agreements based on compromise and respect for differences, with the good of the people you represent at heart and in mind.
It's not that hard to do unless you're a stubborn spoiled brat.
At a press conference (saw the footage on Tucker) Bush was asked if he would meet with the President of Iran and just talk with him. Bush said, "NO!" All the while in other current speeches and press conferences, he gives lip service about diplomacy and peace talks.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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StroFun
Repeater

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 977
Loc: Mycotopia.net
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6080171 - 09/19/06 08:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So how do you think this makes the US look to other countries?
What would you say if this was happening to our soldiers?
If someone was torturing you wouldn't you be more apt to tell them what they want to hear regardless of what is the truth?
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: StroFun]
#6080243 - 09/19/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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you can't really tell a thing from reading that article. fortunately there is google to fill in the gaps. articles from infowars are usually pretty awful.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: StroFun]
#6080341 - 09/19/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
StroFun said: So how do you think this makes the US look to other countries?
Like we think we are above the law and hypocrites.
Quote:
What would you say if this was happening to our soldiers?
See my comments about the lack of civility in war. Just how it goes and there will always be those who want to win, that's the idea, who will cheat and break the rules to do it. Just how it goes. Wars a bitch. I don't understand humanities laws related to war. Its an oxy moron to me.
How I feel about our soldiers being drowned in interrogations if captured is the same as I feel about them being shot and killed when out on the war field. Its all senseless, barbaric, primitive, retarded, blood sport.  
Quote:
If someone was torturing you wouldn't you be more apt to tell them what they want to hear regardless of what is the truth?
I can see why some do, I can see why some stay mum and endure it to the death, and I think no one can honestly know what they would do until they were actually in such a situation. I can't even come close to speculating or guesstimating on what I would do.
If people, groups and nations didn't keep plotting against each other in secret, keeping secrets, to hide their greedy or selfish motives, no one would ever find themselves in such a horrible predicament. I'm more about trouble shooting preventative measures, not reactive ones. Don't know what else to say there.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: wilshire]
#6080480 - 09/19/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: you can't really tell a thing from reading that article. fortunately there is google to fill in the gaps. articles from infowars are usually pretty awful.
Yes, it's all for "what if" general discussion right now. The article never even said why they thought the Red Cross would reveal water boarding interrogation methods being used at Guantanamo.
Even if Bush redefines for his interrogators what exactly is allowed and what isn't, he still can't allow water boarding if the Geneva Convention laws call it torture and say it's illegal.
The best Bush can do is later excuse his interrogators (if its true) by saying, "The guidelines weren't clear enough before and they thought it was okay. That's why I moved to want to change it so it won't happen again." (pre-emtive strike) and he comes out the innocent humanities hero (maybe he really is in this case if its true) and his interrogators take the fall, if there is even one to take.
That's all speculation too. We'll see what happens if anything at all.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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AaronEvil
The GuitarVillain


Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1,706
Loc: California
Last seen: 13 years, 13 days
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Re: Bush's 'rush' to redefine Geneva Conventions may be mostly about 'covering his own backside [Re: StroFun]
#6093377 - 09/23/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The Geneva Convention is a joke.
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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.
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