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Anonymous

thoughts on philosophy of government
    #607312 - 04/13/02 03:37 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I have a hard time getting into discussions about politics with people. It seems as though everyone believes that the government should be set up the way that they like it too, so they vote accordingly. Which is exactly how our system is made up. What i have a hard time understanding is why people think that whatever is "right" for them, is "right" for the masses. I can more or see where everyone is coming from on their different views, such as a democrat, republican, green, reform... but it aggrevates me that they are so selfish in building a government that surrounds around their needs. The government should be based around one highly regarded element: freedom. If ANYTHING violates someones freedom to act in their own way, (as long as you don't hurt others in the process) then i believe we should be allowed to do it. I might believe that gun control is a good thing (even tho i don't =)) but that would not stop me from defending someones right to own a gun. My own beliefs about gun control being a good thing, should not drive people to vote for it. They need to look at the overall picture and realize that OTHER peoples freedom is being tramped upon. I hate cigarettes to death, and i tell my close friends that they should try to quit b/c its really bad for them, but i would fight to my last breath for them to have the right to have that cigarette. See where i'm coming from?


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OfflineBuddha
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #607327 - 04/13/02 03:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I totally agree with you. Check out www.libertarian.org
I dont know how familiar you are with politics but you have a very capitalist view point, which isnt a bad thing.
Everyone should be able make their own choices as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone elses rights. And what you said about the cigarettes, everyone should be allowed to smoke, but I should also be allowed to breath clean air. So smoking is fine but only as long as its not in an inclosed public area. I hate those people who say "I should be able to smoke anytime I want, anywhere I want".


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #608824 - 04/15/02 08:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Libertarians kick ass............republicrates and libbies lick ass


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #608940 - 04/15/02 12:11 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long"

"The history of political thought is a history of one euphemism after another to disguise the naked power of the state."
-- Robert Nisbet

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others?"
-- Thomas Jefferson, in his 1801 inaugural address

"Under The Republicans, man exploits man. Under the Democrats it is the exact opposite."
-- Hubert Jongen (?)

"The state calls its own violence `law', but that of the individual `crime'"
-- Max Stirner

"Every Communist must grasp the truth, 'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.'"
-- Mao Tse-tung, 1938.


Edited by Anonymous (04/15/02 12:14 PM)


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Offlinemm.
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #609086 - 04/15/02 03:29 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Wise words evolving.


--------------------
MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #609097 - 04/15/02 03:41 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

good point


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #610032 - 04/16/02 02:57 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I suppose it comes down to free will. But think about it... your saying that people should be alowed to shoot heroin because it's there choice to do so. But then there is a fair chance that they will become addicted to it, which takes the choice out of their hands. In giving free will you also take it away. It's a tough one.


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OfflineBuddha
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: Revelation]
    #610421 - 04/14/02 08:43 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I think that people should be allowed to do Heroin. They should be educated on the facts and be allowed to make their own decision. Do people not do heroin because its illegal? No, the majority dont do it because its addictive and unhealthy. The people that let law dictate their lives wouldn't do Heroin even if it was legal. How many people are actually detered from doing hard drugs simply because of the law?


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: Buddha]
    #610816 - 04/17/02 01:48 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I think the best idea for everyone would be for the government to *buy* the opium crops each year from the farmers in afghanistan, and then destroy them. The government would save money in the long run, and the people who grow opium for a living would still be able to support themselves. And people would not be wrecking their lives over heroin. And its all very well to talk about free will and all that but when people are basically being destroyed through heroin addiction, and the problem is only getting worse, much as I hate to admit it, it is worth taking away the choice.

But then it becomes a question of degree; how addictive and life threatining does a drug have to be before it is taken away from the public? Who would decide? Of course, only the individual. God forbid they should ever wage biological warfare on the cannabis satva plant, and wipe it out completely.

But still, this is the problem we are faced with.


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Edited by Revelation (04/17/02 01:50 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: Revelation]
    #610942 - 04/17/02 04:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Yeh, like that will work. Other people will grow the poppies and sell the opium for drug use. Then you'll get people who grow the poppies just to get the government money. Where does government get the money? By robbing it's subjects.

If you have the freedom to take the drug the first time, that's free will. I've known people who quit heroin and alcohol cold turkey. That's free will. If people are stupid enough to kill themselves, let them. If they attempt to steal from someone to support their habit, the victim should be allowed to defend himself with any means necessary. Notice that this wouldn't require any tax money or government nannyism.


Edited by Anonymous (04/17/02 04:05 PM)


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #611038 - 04/17/02 05:55 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Instead of paying them to destroy the crops, we should buy them as charity, and distrubute it all around, so everyone has a chance to try opium, instead of heroin.


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Anonymous

Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: Buddha]
    #611525 - 04/18/02 03:19 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I'm already a registered libertarian =)

All drugs should be legal, everyone should have the opportunity to any drug they please. Its not my body, its your body. I can't tell you that heroin is bad for you, because in fact it may be GOOD for you, what the hell do i know!? People think chaos would ensue from legalizing drugs, wrong. People would become more responsible for themselves. Instead of saying," no i'm not doing drugs because its law" they will say " I have to make a decision on what i think is best for me". this kind of attitude will help people become more independent and less dependent on the gov't for their every whim.

hmm speaking of responsiblity i better get off of these boards and finish my philosophy paper =P


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Offlinemrfreedom
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #630640 - 05/14/02 04:56 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

This conundrum you speak of, people building a government that supports ONLY their belief system, has been around as a theory for some time. This theory is called "TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY"; do a search on the subject, you will be amazed.

This tyranny of the majority is the primary focus of my reply, I don't want to get into a discussion of "drugs" and which ones to use. If you want my stance on the topic do a search on "jury duty"; I don't remember which forum.

Why is government built around a substancial belief system that can be directly traced to a Judeo-christian religious belief system? Why are some drugs outlawed, and some, like tobacco and alcohol, simply regulated?(for the record; nicotine is MORE ADICTIVE THAN HEROIN) Why are there only 2 people to vote for for president ( I realize that there are more, but you never see them on television debates)? Why must ADULTS be FORCED to capitulate to the masses of procreaters? I don't give a DAMN about your child, just keep his ass out of my "HERB" garden and I won't run him over with my monster truck.

The matter of government power is, historicaly, a matter of whence the power of government comes from. In this country it is assumed, or once was assumed, to come from the "will of the people". Not that the "will of the people" allowed the government to brush aside, either by legislation or by FORCE, the rights held by the "people". The will of the people was inherent in the democratic process of electing our government officials, by the use of their vote, citizens can remove government officials that fail to due their duty to the constituents that voted for them. This has led to a narrowing of the government body to ONLY those individuals that will legislate or use FORCE to violate the rights of "others", most notabley, those "others" that don't wish to live by the standards of the majority. Now, these standards, purported by the majority, may be as simple as not shopping on a certain day. Where I live this is still a law, you can't buy alcohol on SUNDAY. Now, someone tell me, what the hell is the reason for a law of this nature? I think the best time to buy alcohol would be on sunday morning at 11 am, right before church lets out (less traffic) and a good hour before the BRONCOS kick the shit out of KANSAS CITY. Is there a reasonable explanation for this law? Or is this, and MANY, MANY other laws simply an example of TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY.

James Madison; federalists papers no. 10
"Madison said, "Measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority." And he's right."

To ensure that I live MY life according to the MAJORITY'S belief system, the MAJORITY has elected officials that use VERY BIG GUNS, to ensure that I live a MORAL life as DEFINED BY THE MAJORITY.

In th United States, the constitution is clear on this subject; in articles 1, 9 and 10 of the BILL OF RIGHTS.
1.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

9.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
10.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

It is to the detriment of our country that laws have been enacted NOT for the purpose of protecting the public, but for protecting me from myself. The nature of these laws suppports an establishment of a religion, legislated by the congressional body of the United States. These laws are a direct prostitution of the democratic process. And we wonder why we can use the words "Politician and Prostitute" interchangabley, although, in my opinion, it disparages the institution of professional prostitution.

The only reason to encroach on another citizens rights is to provide protection from misdeeds by another or to defend the populace. In this manner, a civilized society can protect itself from the actions, by another, that may injure the society as a whole. The right to defend ones self is restricted to the defense of life and property, we cannot DEFEND ourselves from the "barbaric" ideas of another using our votes to give to government the power that "we the people" don't have; namely, to force another citizen to live by the MAJORITY'S RELIGIOUS standards.

John Stuart Mills Essay "On Liberty"
"that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil, in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to someone else. "

Take into consideration this scenario: I have a farm, I produce edible produce, I am VERY good at it, my neighbors are not good at farming. In fact, my neighbors couldn't grow mold on bread. One, very dry year, all of my neighbor's crops die. My crops don't die, not because I have a rain machine but because I took the time, over the years, to build several water depositorys; similar to the wells built by the romans. In consideration for my neighbors, and because some of them have skills other than their pathetic farming skills, I propose to put aside my excess crops for the use of the community on a contract type basis; said contract being assured that NONE of my neighbors will go hungry this winter. This action, by me, seems to be a good idea, but my neighbors don't see it that way. My neighbors insist that my water should be given to them so that they can use it to irrigate their, VERY poorly, fertilized fields. Their assertion is that WATER is a valuable source of life that is given by GOD. Since I am most assuredly NOT GOD then they should be able to have the water that I have worked so hard to preserve. They are certainly in the MAJORITY in their belief, in fact their is only ONE person that doesn't think this is a good thing; that person being me. Well, as it turns out, I have much bigger guns than my neighbors, their attempts to take my water from me fail. However, the next election provides the neccesary power for my neighbors to strip what is rightfuly mine; the federal government has tanks, I don't.

Sorry for the long analogy, but this is what happens, over and over and over. What my neighbor may NOT rightly take from me AT THE END OF A GUN, the federal government does take AT THE END OF A GUN. Why is this? Why is it that a group of citizens may not violate my property rights, nor my rights to life, liberty and happiness, but get these same people together and they can vote for a GOVERNMENT official to violate these PROTECTED RIGHTS?

By what mechanism is the erosion of, constitutionaly protected rights, perpetuated?
By the legislation of RELIGIOUS laws. By the supreme court's justification of these laws. By the
TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY.


"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine



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Anonymous

Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: mrfreedom]
    #630717 - 05/14/02 06:03 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you, MrFreedom.

More people should be knowledgeable of the constitution, the bill of rights, and the writing of J.S. Mill and Thomas Paine. It is people such as yourself who give me hope that there is still a chance to regain our liberties. Please do not stop trying to illuminate others.


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Offlineanonymoushate
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: ]
    #630815 - 05/14/02 07:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Mrfreedom, you are sublime. You, me, and a countless number of people like you are why communism was such a "hit" back in the sixties. I do not speak of a government run communistic society, rather a true gathering of individuals devoted to happiness, and the pursuit thereof. While I support what you say, I have to disagree with the idea that you should "not stop trying to illuminate others", as the blind will always be blind, even with the latest visual-aid technologies we possess (speaking figuratively).

Preach not unto the non-believers, but unto the unclear. We (being those of us who believe that church and state should indeed remain seperate) will most likely never be heard over the majority, no matter what we may do and/or say. We are modern slaves. We are subjected to ruthless religious tyranny, and there is little to nothing we can do to free ourselves from the masses obstinate shackles.

My state as well prohibits the sale of alcohol on Sundays, which is a biased law. One person's religion says Sunday is the day of the sabbath, while mine says there is no sabbath, so is my state christian? Yes. With a law like this, how could you say otherwise? Sadly enough, the constitution is becoming more of a suggestion than a rule upon which our laws are created.

True freedom is never tasted in life, it is only in death we are ever truely free.


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All text in the above message, expressed or implied, is fiction.


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OfflineJammer
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Re: thoughts on philosophy of government [Re: anonymoushate]
    #630845 - 05/14/02 07:55 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

>"My state as well prohibits the sale of alcohol on Sundays, which is a biased law...."



Hell the state that I live in has about the harshist alcohol laws in America. In fact many cities here are "DRY" - they dont allow ANY alcohol sales in any area that the people vote "dry". Over 90% of the state has outlawed alcohol sales on Sunday. The STRANGEST law, on this subject, is that Kentucky has outlawed alcohol sales during any goverment election here! - I'm like, whaa? Are they afraid that someone is going to get too drunk and vote for the wrong dude or what? (as it turns out, many years ago some politicians were "buying" votes by giving away free drinks- as if bribary wasnt allready illeagle)

I like Florida's alcohol laws the best. I understand they allow all sales 24 hours/7 days a week.


--------------------
>>Jammer>>


Edited by Jammer (05/14/02 07:58 PM)


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