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InvisibleStroFun
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6082422 - 09/20/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

With Bush's track record i think i would believe Alex Jones before Bush

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Offlinesparks8
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: StroFun]
    #6084772 - 09/20/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

in my opinion the pentagon attack offers the most questionable event of that day.
why such a small hole?
wheres all the debris?
why no solid video evidence? the 5 frames released are supposed to be irrefutable?
such a perfect hit, only inches from the ground. these guys were supposed to be novice pilots at best so i guess they were just really lucky?

I'm sure Ive missed all the obvious answers for these too. zappaisgod, phred care to enlighten us some more?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: StroFun]
    #6085546 - 09/21/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> With Bush's track record i think i would believe Alex Jones before Bush

... and that is why "they" will win. In reality, there is no difference between Alex Jones and Bush... they are simply opposite sides of the same coin.

> in my opinion the pentagon attack offers the most questionable event of that day.

Funny, of all the events that day, the pentagon is the only one I am certain of. A friend of the family was in one of the offices that was half destroyed when the plane hit the building.

A quick search will bring up thread after thread that discusses all of your questions related to the pentagon attack in detail.

> why such a small hole?

Planes are built to be light and fly, not to hold together and punch through buildings. The wings are very thing aluminum, stretched over rib structures. Like an aluminum can, there just isn't much there.

> wheres all the debris?

Momentum carried most of it into the building, but if you look at the pictures, you will see bits and parts laying about. A better question, why should there be debris? Do planes normally rain down debrit before they land or crash into something?

> why no solid video evidence?

There is video evidence, though of poor quality. Remember, at 500MPH, the plane was moving over 700 feet per second... almost 2 and a half football fields per second... pretty damn hard to film something moving that fast on time lapse security cameras.

> such a perfect hit, only inches from the ground.

Video shows that the plane hit the ground and slid into the building. Not at all a perfect hit...


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OfflineViveka
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6085629 - 09/21/06 08:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Dude, you’re way behind. Even the wackiest conspiracy theorists don’t believe that one any more. Some of them are even calling the pentagon theories a “booby trap” for the “9/11 truth movement”. At least, they were a few months ago. I’m sure the movement has progressed further along down the bowels by now…

Edited by Viveka (09/21/06 11:41 AM)

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Offlinesparks8
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Viveka]
    #6085919 - 09/21/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

so your friend was in the building, did he see the plane crash into it?
if the plane hit the ground at 500mph perfect enough to slide without breaking up thats pretty impresive flying i would say.

does the video show it sliding? i cant see a damn thing in those videos.

official pentagon video release

what about other cameras from nearby buisnesses.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6086190 - 09/21/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> so your friend was in the building, did he see the plane crash into it?

Friend of the family. I haven't spoken with him personally, so anything I state would be hear say from my parents... from what I have been told, he was literally in one of the offices that was half destroyed when the plane hit and there was no doubt in his mind that it was a plane. I do not know what exactly he saw to form that opinion. Again, this is what was repeated to me by people that spoke with him.

> what about other cameras from nearby buisnesses.

Reread my original post:

Quote:

Remember, at 500MPH, the plane was moving over 700 feet per second... almost 2 and a half football fields per second... pretty damn hard to film something moving that fast on time lapse security cameras.




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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6086253 - 09/21/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sparks8 said:
what about other cameras from nearby buisnesses.



They are the properties of those businesses, owned by their copyrights, and the government has no capacity to release them to the public.

If the businesses wanted to release them, they could, but the businesses have made no decision to release them.

Furthermore, it's been shown that the private business camera's most likely didn't have enough line-of-site to capture more than a few frames worth of the flight anyway. As seen in this photo: http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/index.php?title=Image:Citgo.jpg there's at least one very large building standing between the Sheraton and the Pentagon. While the view from the Citgo is unobstructed, by the Citgo management's own claims, their cameras all point slightly to the west of the Pentagon, so they wouldn't have captured more than a few frames, and the actual impact would be missing anyway.

The problem of the "small hole" was answered by the ASCE, who pointed out two key things missed by most conspiracy theories:
First the plane was impacting the ground as it was hitting the building, much of it ended up underground.

Second, the plane crashed into reinforced concrete support columns, and large chunks of it sheered off. This is both obvious from photos of wreckage all over the lawn, and from what was found inside the Pentagon.

Finally, claims about there being no wreckage in the Pentagon are just outright false. You can find photos of wreckage in the Pentagon everywhere, I recommend http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm as a place to get started.

This is basically why most conspiracy theorists have stopped harping on the whole Pentagon angle, the conspiracy theories about the Pentagon are based on outright bullshit.

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Offlinesparks8
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Economist]
    #6086310 - 09/21/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

large chunks of it sheered off. This is both obvious from photos of wreckage all over the lawn, and from what was found inside the Pentagon.
now thats some bullshit


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6086315 - 09/21/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sparks8 said:
large chunks of it sheered off. This is both obvious from photos of wreckage all over the lawn, and from what was found inside the Pentagon.
now thats some bullshit



Do you have evidence that it's bullshit?

I have the American Society of Civil Engineers, photos of wreckage on the Pentagon lawn, and photos of wreckage inside the Pentagon all backing me up.

May I ask what evidence you have that this is all wrong?

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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Economist]
    #6086406 - 09/21/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

show me one pick of large chunks on the lawn...or inside


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6086452 - 09/21/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, you could have followed the links I put in my post, but since you seem to have trouble doing that...

Outside:


Inside:

(That's part of the landing gear, incase you can't tell)

It's also important to remember that large chunks which sheered off probably didn't stay intact after breaking off, aside from the larger pieces (which do exist) you also have to keep in mind that the plethora of smaller pieces are also relevant in the smaller size of the hole.

Finally, the ASCE findings also include reports that a lot of debris was found underground.

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Offlinesparks8
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Economist]
    #6086474 - 09/21/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)


Edited by sparks8 (09/21/06 01:00 PM)

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OfflineBrAiN
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6088252 - 09/21/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The Pentagon is in the middle of a pretty urban area.. lots of people... But I suppose all the people who saw the Pentagon getting hit by a plane were just having some sort of mass hallucination.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Economist]
    #6089479 - 09/22/06 07:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Economist... you can argue common sense all you like, but the people that are convinced it was a conspiracy don't care... they will ignore the pictures, they will ignore the eye witnesses, they will ignore the journalists that were on site after the accident, they will ignore science, they will ignore the engineers, they will ignore the reports by the construction workers, and they will ignore common sense... because all of those things interfere with their warped reality. These people are not living in the real world, but rather they are living in a fantasy world that they created in their head.

To support the fantasy the conspiracy nuts have created, they will fixate on the tiniest details that seem out of place, while remaining oblivious to the mountains of evidence that would refute their claims. Even worse, the details that seem out of place, more often than not, only seem out of place due to ignorance on the part of the observer.

To top it off, there are many people that know the conspiracy theories are bullshit, and yet the publish books and give talks supporting the conspiracy all in the name of greed. Truely sickening.

Quote:






... and when they run out of fantasy facts and can no longer support their side of the debate, they resort to retorts as illustrated above.


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Offlinesparks8
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Seuss]
    #6091949 - 09/22/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

seuss if your not following the discusion at hand don't jump in with
your half assed, instantly rightous opinion.
sense you seem half interested but obviously need shit spelled out
for you; i asked him to show me a picture of the so called large
peices of debris. if you scroll up you can see what he could come up with,
which he himself seemed to admit werent large.

>>It's also important to remember that large chunks which sheered off
>>probably didn't stay intact after breaking off, aside from the
>>larger pieces (which do exist) you also have to keep in mind that
>>the plethora of smaller pieces are also relevant in the smaller
>>size of the hole.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6092073 - 09/22/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you aren't going to add anything to the debates in this forum but flames and ad hominems, you won't be welcome here for long.

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Offlinesparks8
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Redstorm]
    #6092093 - 09/22/06 11:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

redstorm my advise to you is the same as seuss.
if your not following the discusion at hand don't jump in with
your half assed, instantly rightous opinion.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6092113 - 09/22/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Sparks8,

I said that large sections of the plane sheared off, I never said that they stayed intact after breaking off. I provided photo-evidence that large amounts of debris did infact break off.

You are trying to assert that an airplane (made mostly out of aluminum, mide you) will magically stay intact during an impact with a reinforced concrete building. The American Society of Civil Engineers, along with Popular Mechanics, disagrees with you. You have not provided any evidence that the plane would not sheer apart on impact, and you are choosing to ignore expert testimony and photos to the contrary.

Please provide some sort of evidence to back your assertion that aluminum-based plane would not have sheered apart when crashing into a reinforced concrete structure.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: sparks8]
    #6092125 - 09/22/06 11:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Watch you mouth and use your brain, or like I said, you won't be in this forum for long.

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Offlinesparks8
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Redstorm]
    #6092168 - 09/22/06 11:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>>I said that large sections of the plane sheared off, I never said
>> that they stayed intact after breaking off.

thats convenient.

and you showed 2 pics of single peices of debris. all told there are maybe 10 pics out there of possible debris, hardly what i would call "large amounts"

redstorm, if this forum is moderated by an ignorant bully like you then i couldn't give two shits about being here. fascist copper.


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