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InvisibleLuddite
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Registered: 03/23/06
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9/11 doubters discard the truth
    #6067072 - 09/16/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

A Conspiracy Against Us All
9/11 doubters discard the truth.

By Andrew Cline


Five years after 9/11, the truth about what happened that day is more thoroughly documented and widely available than ever. And yet the crackpot conspiracy theories alleging that the Bush administration orchestrated the attacks or allowed them to happen have become more deeply entrenched and broadly accepted than at any time since that terrible day.

More than a third (36 percent) of the American public believes it is likely that the Bush administration either perpetrated the 9/11 attacks or deliberately failed to stop them “because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East,” according to a Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll released last month. A Zogby poll in August 2004 found that half of New York City residents believed the Bush administration knew the attacks were coming and “consciously failed to act.” The true believers might be a tiny fringe element, but thanks to the Internet, hack academics, and a passive media, they have succeeded in planting a grain of doubt in the minds of a substantial number of Americans.

The Internet is a brilliant vehicle for the dissemination of half-truths — or what only have the appearance of half-truths. Presenting one-sided versions of the story, which usually leave out mountains of available data, and armed with a few snapshots or video clips, conspiracy theorists have crafted page after page of “proof” of their theories.

For example, photographs showing dust and smoke shooting out of the towers as they collapse are cited on website after website as proof that the towers were brought down by explosions. The theory is reasonable enough, so long as you ignore all the available evidence — which is exactly what the theorists do. Numerous engineers who’ve studied the towers, and even ones who haven’t, have concluded that the puffs of smoke and debris are the result of air being pressed outward by the force of the top floors falling. It is really rather elementary: The physical space occupied by any office building consists mostly of air; if the top floors fall, where does the air in the floors below go? Out. There is no other option. Yet the theorists claim that this perfectly expected expulsion of air is proof that bombs were used.

The most prevalent theory is that the government brought the towers down by controlled demolition. This is what Brigham Young University physics professor Steven Jones, put on leave by BYU last week, believes — once again, despite the preponderance of facts showing otherwise.

Jones and his followers believe that the government placed thermite explosives in the buildings and brought them down by detonation. Never mind that thousands of pounds of explosives would somehow have to have been planted throughout the towers — in office space, behind walls, etc. — without anyone noticing. The “proof” of this theory is that the towers came down so quickly: The resistance of the lower floors would have slowed the collapse — unless, that is, the lower floors were exploded.

The video evidence clearly refutes this claim. The towers unquestionably collapsed from the top down, not bottom up. The force of the collapsing top floors, combined with the weakened steel below, were enough to bring the towers down remarkably quickly — almost in free fall, in fact.

A good example of the flimsiness of the conspiracy theories is the claim that a video shows “molten steel” falling from one of the towers. A jet-fuel fire is not strong enough to melt steel, so the picture “proves” that thermite explosives were used. The National Institutes for Standards and Training found was that the photo really shows melted aluminum from one of the aircraft. The theorists scream that melted aluminum is white, and the metal in question is clearly yellow, case closed. In its pure state, melted aluminum is white, but of course, it wasn’t pure when coming out of the towers. It was mixed with all the other burned debris, which changed its color.

The conspiracy theories rely on just that sort of thinking. They approach 9/11 as if it were a controlled scientific experiment: In theory, things are supposed to work in a certain way; because they did not, the official story cannot be true. Conspiracy theorists have little patience for facts of life, such as bureaucratic incompetence, human error, and extreme conditions. They tend to believe that the government functions at peak, even superhuman, levels. Their regard for the government — or at least, for the competence of the government — is particularly strange. The top conspiracy theorist, David Ray Griffin, claims the official story cannot possibly be true is because “such incompetence by FAA officials is not believable.”

The support of “academics” such as Griffin has lent much credence to the conspiracy mongers, but how credible are these academics? Last Wednesday Britain’s Daily Mail published a story claiming: “The 9/11 terrorist attack on America which left almost 3,000 people dead was an ‘inside job,’ according to a group of leading academics.” But the group in question, Scholars for 9/11 Truth, of which Griffin is the most prominent member, is in no sense a “group of leading academics.” It is a collection of like-minded crackpot theorists who happen to have some connection to academia.

Scholars for 9/11 Truth claims about 300 total members, 76 of whom have “academic affiliations,” according to its founder, retired University of Minnesota-Duluth philosophy professor James H. Fetzer. He told this to my newspaper, the New Hampshire Union Leader, last month when one of our reporters discovered that a University of New Hampshire professor was a member and wanted to teach a class on 9/11. The UNH professor, William Woodward, teaches psychology — not engineering or physics — is a Quaker pacifist previously arrested for demonstrating at the office of U.S. Senator Judd Gregg, and has a long history of left-wing activism. When asked by a reporter to explain his theory that the planes were not hijacked airliners, Woodward admitted that he could not account for the missing passengers who boarded their flights and never returned. Nonetheless, he was convinced that he was right — because the official 9/11 report left too much unexplained, he said.

That is how it usually is in the world of conspiracy theorists. It seems that they all claim the official story cannot be true because it has too many holes, yet goes on to posit a theory with holes large enough to, well, fly a jumbo jet through.

Some members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth are or were legitimate academics of good standing at reputable institutions. Yet, of the 76 Fetzer identifies as having “academic affiliations,” there are many with questionable credentials. A partial list includes a “visiting professor of English” at Kyungpook National University in Daegu, South Korea; an assistant professor of English literature at Dogus University in Istanbul; someone whose qualifications are listed only as “Radiology, Medical hypnosis”; another whose qualifications are “French language and culture”; someone who teaches at Tunxis Community College in Farmington, Conn.; another listed as “architect, communicator”; one professor of “English and theater” at the University of Guelph (that’s in Ontario); and one listed as “author, researcher 9/11, JFK, more.” These are some of the “leading academics” promoting the view that the government did 9/11. One author with an article posted on the Scholars for 9/11 Truth website goes by the name “Scooby Doo.”

Of the 76 full members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, only four are listed as having backgrounds in physics, three in engineering; the other 69 “scholars” are mostly in the humanities and social sciences. Not quite what you’d expect when you hear that a group of “leading academics” supports the theory that the government was behind the attack.

What do the vast majority of actual engineers and investigators who’ve studied the attacks conclude? Not unexpectedly, that the towers and the Pentagon were attacked by airliners hijacked by radical Islamic extremists, and the towers collapsed as a result of the aircraft collisions and fires. Every major investigation, from the 9/11 Commission to a panel of experts assembled by Popular Mechanics magazine to the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), has come to the same conclusion. And yet more and more people continue to believe the handful of conspiracy nuts. Why?

The Internet bears some responsibility, of course. But the amateur speculation so prevalent there can be cancelled out to a large degree by top-notch investigative reporting, which is what the big media are supposed to do. In this, however, the media have been less than thorough, and, to a large extent, the 9/11 conspiracy theories have spread because the mainstream media have failed in their duty to get to the truth of the matter.

Popular Mechanics did an excellent job refuting the conspiracy theorists, as has the NIST. But their work has been little explored by the mainstream press. On top of that, media outlets have tended to do puff pieces on the conspiracy theorists rather than expose their shoddy research. Too many reports on the conspiracy nuts treat them as if their ideas are to be given the same consideration as the facts. The conspiracy theorists are given the standard J-school “fairness treatment.” Get a quote from Person A and another from Person B, present both sides evenly, and leave it at that. The Washington Post did exactly that in its piece on the conspiracy theorists last Friday. What ever the merits of that approach, it doesn’t work in this case.

None of the conspiracy theories can stand up to scrutiny; that they have stood up at all is mostly because the mainstream press has not given them any real scrutiny. The academics tend to be treated with the respect any other academic would get, and because they are professors the stories are made to read just like any other dispute between professors. But in reality, the scholars peddling the 9/11 theories are practicing almost entirely outside of their realm of expertise (e.g., Griffin, the theologian) and are an ultra-tiny minority dismissed as crackpots by the vast majority of the academic world, not to mention the world of engineering.

As a result, five years after nearly 3,000 innocent people were slaughtered by radical Islamic terrorists, and just as the War on Terror enters an important new phase in which President Bush has vowed to take on both al Qaeda and its allies, and Iran and its puppets, a third of the American people reportedly think the enemy is not the jihadists, who are trying to destroy us, but our own government, which is trying to defend us against the real threat.

This is a serious development. If people don’t understand who the real enemy is, if they doubt the very basis upon which our response to 9/11 was initiated, they are not going to support our necessary war against those who are trying to destroy us. One may have his doubts about the Iraq war; and the Bush administration, in its justification and execution, has earned a great deal of the skepticism about that conflict. But the War on Terror is another matter entirely. The skepticism about that has not been earned; it has been manufactured.

We cannot allow the truth of what happened on 9/11 to be clouded by the conspiracy nuts. America cannot afford to lose the will to fight this war.

— Andrew Cline is editorial page editor of the New Hampshire Union Leader.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Mjc2MjZmOTI2YzM0M2ZjOTUwZWU4YWRiMjRlOTVjZGM=

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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Luddite]
    #6067506 - 09/16/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Most of that article was based on assumptions. It's pure bullshit. It plays the card that all in the 9/11 truth movement believe the towers were brought down by a government demolition, when if fact the very oppisite is true. It also talks about all the people scholars, professors, and generally very intelligent people as being a minority of the academic community, which is suggesting that ~35% of college professors are whackjob crackpots that just make shit up and just go along with anything, and will stuggle hard to get the word out there because, you know, the have nothing better to do, being college professors and all.

I trust the way of the detective, by following motive back to the criminal. That's only half of it of course, motive, there are many different events on 9/11 and the days after that point towards government involvment.

The silly theories of the 9/11 truth movement, such as the bomb in the pentagon, were created by either extremists desperatley trying to wake up the other half of America, not realising they're damaging there cause, or by the other side, trying to throw in some nonsense here and there to make a generalisation about everyone in the 9/11 truth movement. Truth is, most of us don't go beyond the government's allowance of the attacks theory, which can be backed up with the report on Bush's desk about terrorists planning to hijack planes and fly them into buildings in New York, days before the attack. He did not bring any attention to it within the government or notify the public.

Then another part of that 50% of NY citizens, 35% of all Americans, believe the government had paid Osama to execute the attack, and this claim is backed by the simple fact of Osama's connections to the US government and the fact that the pentagon was hit in such a way that no serious damage was actually done to our government (those who don't know, the sector hit was being renovated for the past two years) even though supposably they supposably were attacking us because of our government, yet they really helped the government a shitload and the man behind it is now free, and when he is caught, something tells me he'll be chilling out in a mansion somewhere with American guards at the gates as CNN reports the death of Osama Bin Laden.


When something like 9/11 happens during such a dirty criminal's presidency, and then that already known dirty criminal gets what he wants and what he's been talking about, as a result, and then continues his unamerican acts with spying, signing statements, and corruptness on every level to as a result from having the attack, they continually show us reasons why they and how they (morally) could have caused it.

They screw up sometimes and really show it. For example, the famous "America is under attack" whispering in the ear of Bush, and almost as if he knew he wasn't in harms way, as if he knew no chemical, nuclear, or any sort of WMD was on its way, almost as if he knew what just happened, he sat there, for 5 minutes, reading my pet goat. A chemical weapon could have just swept through the nation and could be in his area, but for whatever reason, he didn't decide to find out.

Their mistrust within the people they rule continually deepens, last week spending $20 million dollars of tax payer money on following media reports about Iraq. Tax payer money well spent? Yes, it's not as deep of a crime, and cannot really (technically) be called a crime, especially compared to what they've done on 9/11 and in Iraq, but it just goes to show the tyranny will not end until we have justice and make an example out of this group.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (09/16/06 12:13 PM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: beatnicknick]
    #6067706 - 09/16/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

beatnicknick writes:

Quote:

Truth is, most of us don't go beyond the government's allowance of the attacks theory, which can be backed up with the report on Bush's desk about terrorists planning to hijack planes and fly them into buildings in New York, days before the attack.




Odd how you would start such an outrageous lie with the phrase, "Truth is..."

I have followed the whole 9/11 story as closely as anyone, and this is the first I've heard of any report available to Bush days before the attack stating terrorists were planning to hijack planes and fly them into buildings in New York. I am sure you will have no difficulty providing a link to a reliable source confirming said report.

Quote:

Then another part of that 50% of NY citizens, 35% of all Americans, believe the government had paid Osama to execute the attack, and this claim is backed by the simple fact of Osama's connections to the US government....




There you go again. You can stuff THAT "fact" back into the bodily orifice from which you pulled it, too. The only "connections" ObL had with the American government were his multiple attacks on American assets -- the WTC bombing in 1993, the African Embassy bombings in 1998, the attack on the USS Cole in 2000, for example.

Quote:

When something like 9/11 happens during such a dirty criminal's presidency and then that already known dirty criminal...




Please list for us Bush's criminal convictions. Thank you.

Here we see once again the unifying characteristic of the Truthers: it's not that they don't know anything, it's that they know so many things that aren't so.




Phred


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Phred]
    #6070254 - 09/17/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Here we see once again the unifying characteristic of the Truthers: it's not that they don't know anything, it's that they know so many things that aren't so.





aka paranoia (the psychopathological kind)

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Luddite]
    #6070347 - 09/17/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Explain this then..

On that day several buildings fell to the ground. All of them were WTC buildings and ALL of them fell in a manner consistent with that of a controlled demolition..

Is that just coincidence?

Did anyone see building 7 go down? That was an OBVIOUS controlled demolition. No way could fires on just a few floors have brought down that building, that way. Its just not possible.


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Phred]
    #6070500 - 09/17/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The only "connections" ObL had with the American government were his multiple attacks on American assets -- the WTC bombing in 1993, the African Embassy bombings in 1998, the attack on the USS Cole in 2000, for example.





what about the fact that both the carter and regan administration were funding
and training 'terrorist' cells in the middle east during the afgan/russian wars


did OBL have anything to do with 9.11?

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #6070547 - 09/17/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

did OBL have anything to do with 9.11?




I doubt it. If he did and we were after him then I doubt that he would still be around..

We offer lots of money and a better way of life to capture guys like him and no way could he hide for this long, even within that faithfull group of his. Someone would have sold him out by now... Osama is just a puppet, like Hitler.


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GabbaDj

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6070563 - 09/17/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Quote:

did OBL have anything to do with 9.11?



I doubt it. If he did and we were after him then I doubt that he would still be around..





the FBI seems to think he didnt, anyway we've had several chances to aprehend/kill
osama but havent taken any of them, he was in meetings with dignitaries and heads
of state from the mid east and europe, aparently it would look bad on those people
to be busted with osama

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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6070914 - 09/17/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Explain this then..

On that day several buildings fell to the ground. All of them were WTC buildings and ALL of them fell in a manner consistent with that of a controlled demolition..

Is that just coincidence?

Did anyone see building 7 go down? That was an OBVIOUS controlled demolition. No way could fires on just a few floors have brought down that building, that way. Its just not possible.




How do you know what a controlled demolition looks like
?


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6071093 - 09/17/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No way could fires on just a few floors have brought down that building, that way. Its just not possible.

And your expertise in this field would be..?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: zorbman]
    #6071115 - 09/17/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

ever seen a building of concrete and steel burn?

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #6071786 - 09/17/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You may not have noticed, but there tend to be fires when tens of thousands of gallons of fuel are present near a plane crash.

Ok, I've wasted enough time on this thread.
Someone else can field these softballs.  :grin:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: zorbman]
    #6071807 - 09/17/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

yes, that is a given but have you seen concrete and steel collapse due to a fire?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #6071818 - 09/17/06 07:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
ever seen a building of concrete and steel burn?




Yeah, more than two. Although this may come as a surprise to you but they burn all the time here in NY. Amazingly enough, there are other elements of construction in those buildings. Like wiring. And heating. Shouldn't you be spending your time tilling fields and not concerning yourself with urban life?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6071835 - 09/17/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
ever seen a building of concrete and steel burn?




Yeah, more than two. Although this may come as a surprise to you but they burn all the time here in NY. Amazingly enough, there are other elements of construction in those buildings. Like wiring. And heating. Shouldn't you be spending your time tilling fields and not concerning yourself with urban life?




what happend when those buildings burned?

and dont try baiting me, I'm not a fool junior

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #6071933 - 09/17/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't recall. None of them had jet planes full of fuel sticking out of them but they sure did burn.

And if you think that these buildings were brought down by controlled demolition you are exactly what you profess not to be. IT'S FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6071951 - 09/17/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I don't recall. None of them had jet planes full of fuel sticking out of them but they sure did burn.





at what temperature does concrete or steel ignight? are you sure it wasnt the
furnishings and finishings of the building that actualy burned?

Quote:

And if you think that these buildings were brought down by controlled demolition you are exactly what you profess not to be. IT'S FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE.





could you clarify this, it makes no sense to people that think rationaly

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #6072133 - 09/17/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

This is so sad, we have the WTC 7 debate every 3 days in this forum. But, I really love this community, so for its sake I'll go over again why WTC 7 was not a controlled demolition once more:

To begin with, the building did not collapse as a controlled demolition does. Infact, it listed to the South-East on its way down, and fell onto the building located behind it, to the South-East. This can be clearly seen by looking at the 2nd through 5th from-last photos on this page: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

Furthermore, there is a history of buildings of similar construction collapsing under fire, the notable examples being the McCormick Place fire in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theatre in Pennsylvania.

It is also well documented that WTC 7 housed a power-generation substation for New York City, and as a result, had a massive diesel reserve for power generation purposes. It is this diesel that most likely caught fire and continued to burn for the 6-7 hours before the building came down.

Now, many conspiracy theorists point out to other buildings that have had similar construction and have burned for similar amounts of time and have not collapsed. However, none of these had anything close to the amount of damage that WTC 7 had.

Looking at the eyewitness account from Fire Captain Boyle, available here: http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html

He describes a hole punched in the base of WTC 7 on the South side that is "about 20 stories high". This hole is also apparent in any photos taken of the South Side of the building. This level of damage is also consistant with other buildings within a similar radius of the Twin Towers, the Bankers Trust Building, for example, also had a hole roughly 20 stories high torn into its base. However, the other buildings did not house known diesel reserves, and at any rate did not catch fire.

When asked how widespread the fire was, Boyle states that at least a 3rd of the exposed floors were on fire, clustered around the middle of the hole, and we know that these fires burned for at least 6 hours.

Simply put: there are no other buildings in existence of similar construction to WTC 7 that have not collapsed after having 20-story tall holes punched in their base, then having caught fire on at least 6 floors, having subsequently burned for more than 6 hours, while debris was falling on top of them the entire time (this is also a concern listed by Captain Boyle, but one the conspiracy theorists usually don't mention).

You might find buildings that had 20-story holes punched in them (Banker's Trust), or buildings that caught fire and burned for more than 6 hours (La Plaza is usually mentioned), or even that caught fire across 6 or more floors that burned for more than 6 hours, but there are NO other buildings in existance that underwent the combined stress of 20-story-hole, 6-floors-on-fire, 6-hours-of-burning, and debris-constantly-hitting-building-top.

Edited by Economist (09/19/06 01:15 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: GabbaDj]
    #6073059 - 09/18/06 05:08 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Did anyone see building 7 go down? That was an OBVIOUS controlled demolition. No way could fires on just a few floors have brought down that building, that way. Its just not possible.




This is a perfect example of why I make fun of the Alex Jones conspiracy crowd.

> Did anyone see building 7 go down?

Nope. Everybody turned off their cameras and closed their eyes!

> That was an OBVIOUS controlled demolition.

Gee... I thought it was an OBVIOUS sneeze from the giant meatball in the sky. How many demolitions have you OBVIOUSLY witnessed first hand. My guess, ZERO.

It is a good thing science demands more than the OBVIOUS for proof since the OBVIOUS is usually misleading.

> No way could fires on just a few floors have brought down that building, that way.

Ah, now you are both a civil engineer and a fire arson investigator on top of being a building demolition expert and an explosives expert. You are GOOD... (more :rolleyes)

> Its just not possible.

Based upon your years of engineering school, your years of on the job engineering training, your years of high rise construction experience, your years of demolition experience, and your years of experience working as an arson investigator? Sorry, but I will wait for somebody with real credentials, rather than somebody that knows how to repeat what they saw on TV or heard on the radio, before trusting their opinion on what is or is not possible.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: 9/11 doubters discard the truth [Re: Seuss]
    #6082364 - 09/20/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

- irony on -
So controlled demolition is an easy job, because all buildings will naturally collapse in a controlled way ?
I didn't know that statics works this way.
I will have to close my windows and doors a bit more carefully :smile:
:eek:
- irony off -


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (09/20/06 01:19 PM)

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