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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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If Bush wasn't a gutless coward
    #6066944 - 09/16/06 05:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

When Bush crawled trembling from the mile-deep hole he hid down on September 11 he had two choices. Submit meekly to deranged fantasies of empire building dreamed up by the neo-cons, or stand on his hind-legs and go after Bin Laden and his organisation. If he'd had a little courage and gone directly after Bin Laden and his organisation instead of blundering into Iraq would the war on terror now be over?

With the money he's pissed away in Iraq and Afghanistan he could have paid off the debts of every poor country on earth. What effect would that have had on support for terrorism?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6067333 - 09/16/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I was actually thinking about this very question yesterday, and I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

I think the real problem is Pakistan.

According to NATO reports, Taleban fighters frequently take refuge in the tribal regions of Pakistan where they cannot be pursued. Pakistan, meanwhile, despite their initial support, has reached agreements with local groups that clearly allows the tribes to freely aid the Taleban (which is a major reason for their recent resurgence) along with other militants, most notably Bin Laden's allies.

Of course, Pakistan has nuclear weapons, so an American invasion was out of the question. But as long as the tribal region is open and allows refuge to the militants, Bin Laden's not going to be caught.

Not that being in Iraq is helping us with any of this...

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6067463 - 09/16/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
When Bush crawled trembling from the mile-deep hole he hid down on September 11 he had two choices. Submit meekly to deranged fantasies of empire building dreamed up by the neo-cons, or stand on his hind-legs and go after Bin Laden and his organisation. If he'd had a little courage and gone directly after Bin Laden and his organisation instead of blundering into Iraq would the war on terror now be over?

With the money he's pissed away in Iraq and Afghanistan he could have paid off the debts of every poor country on earth. What effect would that have had on support for terrorism?





For your information, Bin Ladens organization was in Afganistan. Thats were the war started.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6067552 - 09/16/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:shocked:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6067736 - 09/16/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

For your information, Bin Ladens organization was in Afganistan. Thats were the war started.


Bin Laden was never caught tho it was complete waste of time. It's like invading Eire because Gerry Adams was there. You don't need to invade the country, you need to take out Gerry Adams.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Economist]
    #6067748 - 09/16/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Taleban fighters frequently take refuge in the tribal regions of Pakistan where they cannot be pursued

I think 254 billion might have got round that problem tho. Give Pakistan a couple hundred billion in aid and I'm sure the americans could have put their entire army and airforce into that area of Pakistan with no problem whatsoever.

Is there some percentage to Bush in leaving Bin Laden free?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6067760 - 09/16/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I think 254 billion might have got round that problem tho. Give Pakistan a couple hundred billion in aid and I'm sure the americans could have put their entire army and airforce into that area of Pakistan with no problem whatsoever.

Is there some percentage to Bush in leaving Bin Laden free?



I'm just not sure about the bribe-Pakistan bit. I definitely think that more efforts should have been made, and I think there should have been public discourse about the need for American military forces in Pakistan but...

The majority of the population of Pakistan has always teetered between hating the west and wanting to actually develop. On the one hand, Americans have been unwelcome in Pakistan since the 1970s, on the other, everyone in Pakistan can see that India is way outpacing them thanks to western influence. I don't think it would take much to push to population of Pakistan over the edge into total anti-Americanism, and a military presence in Pakistan would be one of the surest ways to accomplish that.

Musharraf isn't an idiot, and would like to remain in power, so he probably wouldn't allow something that could cripple his hold, like an American presence, even if the price seemed right.

I also think that an invasion of Afghanistan would have been necessary no matter what. If we've learned anything since the invasion, it's that the Taleban are willing to fight to the last man in order to support Bin Laden's militants.

Iraq, on the otherhand, was a total mistake. All of those soldiers should be in Afghanistan and coordinating/coercing/something with Pakistan to get Bin Laden caught.

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6067765 - 09/16/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The war on terror is not meant to end, ever.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Economist]
    #6067766 - 09/16/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Mushareef has already sided himself with Bush tho. If he had any worries about his people being anti-american surely he wouldn't have so openly supported Bush?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6067798 - 09/16/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Mushareef has already sided himself with Bush tho. If he had any worries about his people being anti-american surely he wouldn't have so openly supported Bush?



I think his pro-Bush stance was a case of "it sounded good at the time" and he later came to regret it, and even work to get out of it (negative fallout from Pakistan's support is credited as a major factor in the Pakistan Tribal Agreement, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3652509.stm )

Now, maybe this means that if Bush had rushed in immediately and said "We need to put the American military in Pakistan" then the government of Pakistan would have gone along with it back in 2002, but (as much as it pains me to say this) I have a hard time faulting him for not doing so when the Pakistani military was already operating in the region and an invasion of Afghanistan seemed necessary.

Of course, as with Iraq, there seems to have been no post-invasion strategy, and as of 2004, apparently no contingency plan if Pakistan stops looking for Bin Laden.

Clearly the invasion of Iraq, the post-invasion plan for Afghanistan, and the lack of a post-Pakistani-Tribal-agreement plan are all major failings of the Bush administration, but I just don't think failing to immediately deploy troops to Pakistan in 2002 is a failure on the same scale. There just wasn't anything, at the time, that made it seem necessary.

The real question I want answered is: Now that Pakistan has removed itself from the hunt, and it's pretty clear that Bin Laden is hiding in Pakistan, what are we going to do about it? And it's pretty clear that the Bush administration's answer has been "Hope he goes away..."

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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Registered: 01/20/05
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6068370 - 09/16/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
When Bush crawled trembling from the mile-deep hole he hid down on September 11 he had two choices. Submit meekly to deranged fantasies of empire building dreamed up by the neo-cons, or stand on his hind-legs and go after Bin Laden and his organisation. If he'd had a little courage and gone directly after Bin Laden and his organisation instead of blundering into Iraq would the war on terror now be over?

With the money he's pissed away in Iraq and Afghanistan he could have paid off the debts of every poor country on earth. What effect would that have had on support for terrorism?




He is the leader of the free world, and had no idea what was happening it only makes sense for him to be put into a safe hole until what was really happening could be sorted out. You don't put your leader out front during an attack when you don't know what's going on.

It's our money to do with what we want, if those other countries would figure out how to do something productive for us then we'll give them money in exchange for goods and services. Countries being poor or rich would have no effect on terrorism because the terrorists are a bunch of lunatics.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Economist]
    #6069783 - 09/17/06 01:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Don't you think providing Northern Pakistan with housing, running water, food, earthquake warning systems etc would dissipate a lot of the anti-american feeling tho? With 254 billion to spare Bush could have improved an awful lot of poor Pakistani lives.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #6069785 - 09/17/06 01:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He is the leader of the free world

Well he's the leader of America not the "free world", whatever that is.

and had no idea what was happening it only makes sense for him to be put into a safe hole

Don't you think in times of crisis the leader should be setting an example rather than cowering down a hole a mile deep?

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6069810 - 09/17/06 02:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Don't you think providing Northern Pakistan with housing, running water, food, earthquake warning systems etc would dissipate a lot of the anti-american feeling tho? With 254 billion to spare Bush could have improved an awful lot of poor Pakistani lives. 




:lol:
we're talking about ingrates here aren't we?
what would be the first things they'd burn and destroy in a tantrum?

do you like how the muslims are burning churches  now because of what the pope said,'the truth' about islam?

"it's even worse than the cartoons"
:lol:
imbeciles


--------------------

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InvisibleAlex213
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Posts: 1,839
Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: quiver]
    #6070085 - 09/17/06 07:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You get better results by feeding people than bombing them tho. What percentage do they have in helping America win? If American wins in Afghanistan they're next move will be to destroy the opium crop and drive the region into even more extreme poverty.

If you were living in that are you wouldn't support the Americans either. Not unless they were offering something other than bombs and poverty.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6070707 - 09/17/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Don't you think providing Northern Pakistan with housing, running water, food, earthquake warning systems etc would dissipate a lot of the anti-american feeling tho? With 254 billion to spare Bush could have improved an awful lot of poor Pakistani lives.



Frankly, I don't think the tribal areas of Pakistan would even accept that much aid, they'd assume it was a trick or call it an occupation of something. Look at insurgents in Iraq: they bomb US efforts to establish running water and electricity all the time.

Given that the tribal peoples are content to shoot at members of the Pakistani military, there's no reason to expect them not to bomb/shoot at the American military or American development efforts.

Furthermore, I just don't think that was a realistic plan back in 2001/2002. Back then it really was important to solve the Afghanistan problem. Most of the money would have been better spent invading and rebuilding Afghanistan.

There was also little reason to think that Pakistan was going to give up so easily back in 2001/2002. They also didn't give up until 2004, and they were taking casualties/mounting operations the entire time, so it was VERY hard to anticipate that the political fallout would be so bad as to get the government to more or less surrender and pull out.

The Pakistan problem was just something that could not have been anticipated in 2001/2002. Perhaps we could have dealt with it in 2003 if we hadn't been so involved in Iraq, but the solution probably still would have been a military one for the reasons listed above.

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6071232 - 09/17/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Don't you think providing Northern Pakistan with housing, running water, food, earthquake warning systems etc would dissipate a lot of the anti-american feeling tho? With 254 billion to spare Bush could have improved an awful lot of poor Pakistani lives.





Your're incredibly naive. People in that area in the world are subhuman and need to be controlled by superior western people with the US government leading them. Read this for absolute indisputable proof I'm right.




‘Quake money’(Pakistan Earthquake relief funds) used to finance UK plane bombing plot
DailyTimes, Pakistan ^


Posted on 08/11/2006 5:59:51 PM PDT by milestogo


‘Quake money’ used to finance UK plane bombing plot

* Funds given to two British citizens of Kashmiri origin and an Islamabad-based Kashmiri builder * ‘Earthquake relief’ money remitted to individuals alarmed British agencies

By Sarfaraz Ahmed and Maqbool Ahmed

KARACHI: A UK-based Islamic charity organisation remitted a huge amount of money to three individuals in three different bank accounts in Mirpur, Azad Kashmir, in December last year with the sole purpose of helping its recipients and their organisations carry out the aircraft bombing plan in the UK, insider sources told Daily Times yesterday.

An investigation carried out by Daily Times showed that Muslim Charity of UK remitted not so long ago a huge amount of money under the head of “earthquake relief” to the accounts of three individuals in three different banks — Saudi Pak Bank, Standard Chartered and Habib Bank Ltd. One of these banks is UK based and has its presence in Azad Kashmir because of a huge number of British citizens of Kashmir origin in UK. The money was transferred from UK to banks in Azad Kashmir through Barclays Plc..

Two of the recipients of the transaction are British citizens of Kashmir origin while the third is an Islamabad-based builder, also of Kashmir origin. They were arrested in the last two weeks at three different places in the country. One of them was arrested in Karachi, the “builder” was arrested in Islamabad while the place of the arrest of the third suspect is still not known. There are no available details about these three suspects with regard to their links with organisations such as Al Qaeda or Lashkar-e-Taiba or both.

Pakistani FIA investigators were apparently tipped off by the British authorities about the fund transfers and asked to investigate. Following their arrests the three suspects revealed some key elements of the aircraft bombing plan during interrogations by various agency personnel, who were also aided by at least one expert specialising in money laundering. The Pakistani and British investigators were able to discover how operatives at both ends had raised and moved their funds around. These investigations also established that it was due to the prompt and successful operation of Pakistan’s intelligence agencies, particularly the FIA, that the world was saved from a fate worse than 9/11.

“Had we been even slightly complacent, the perpetrators of this plot might have been able to carry out their operations without little or no problem in the UK because of two broad reasons,” said a senior government official, who was privy to the inquiry carried out by Pakistani agencies following the receipt of a tip from UK’s National Terrorist Financial Investigation Unit in June this year.

First, he said, “Pakistani anti-terrorism agency counterparts abroad have been showing a lot of trust in our skills and abilities and none of our reports has so far been challenged by them.” Second, he added, any delay on the part of the Pakistan agencies in acquiring and relaying this information would have cost the NTFIU dearly for it was desperate to know the outcome of Pakistan’s inquiry report in order to determine whether or not to ask the UK authorities to declare a “red alert” in the country. Giving details, the official said the NTFIU, which reportedly plays a central role in informing and implementing British government policy on terrorist finance and is an integral part of the UK’s intelligence structure targeting terrorist finance, had asked Pakistani authorities to carry out a “highly discreet” inquiry on some money transfers.

According to the NTFIU, a huge amount of money had been transferred from Britain to Azad Kashmir for quake relief efforts two months after the quake caused devastation. “Neither the amount nor the purpose for which money was sent caused any concern in the British investigation unit,” said the senior official. “What raised alarm among British sleuths specialising in finances was the fact that the entire money was remitted to three individuals, not to any organisation or organisations involved in the relief work.”

The official, who refused to disclose the amount, however said that the entire transaction was in pound sterling. “It is up to you to deduce. What I can say is that it was a huge amount. Had it not been gone into the accounts of individual, nobody would have been bothered,” he said.

A senior Pakistani banker who has successfully dealt with a number of money laundering cases told Daily Times on condition of anonymity that the UK has had extensive experience of tracking, disrupting and undermining the finances of terrorist networks and continues to develop new ways in which such targeting and disruption can be effectively achieved. In this case too, the UK Unit’s expertise provided immense guidance to Pakistani sleuths to uncover the plot, he added. Another senior official told Daily Times that the Pakistani agencies have in recent months been able to effect significant seizures of terrorist cash and identify and disrupt terrorist fundraising activity.

According to him, all banks, including multinationals, and financial institutions have been cooperating fully in seeking out sources of terrorist funding since 9/11. “This was mainly due to the cooperation of the three banks through which money was transferred to these suspects,” the official said, and added that one of the most significant features contributing to the success of this case was increased integration between key bodies involved, ranging from government, law enforcement and regulatory bodies at home and abroad.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1682185/posts

Edited by Luddite (09/17/06 04:49 PM)

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Invisiblequiver
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6072649 - 09/17/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

lets not forget that pakistan has huge military parades and they STARVE???
they seem to be able to afford military might but not food for their people,thats when we idiots come in eh?


--------------------

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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Economist]
    #6072928 - 09/18/06 02:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Frankly, I don't think the tribal areas of Pakistan would even accept that much aid

I think they'd accept food, water and better housing in a heartbeat. I think we're overestimating how many "jihadists" there are in Northern Pakistan. The vast bulk of pakistani's won't give fuck one for jihad, they'll just be concerned with feeding their families.

Given that the tribal peoples are content to shoot at members of the Pakistani military

But what are the pakistani military doing to them? They arn't going up there to provide them with food and water are they?

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Invisiblequiver
freedrug
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Re: If Bush wasn't a gutless coward [Re: Alex213]
    #6072963 - 09/18/06 02:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

again,why not reply about their military might whilst starving?

lost for words?

i wouldnt feed them if they begged and converted to christianity let alone hope they liked me or the west if i did in the first place


how about muslims feed me?


--------------------

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