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the_END
Mr. E
Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 241
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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cold shocking, who does it?
#6066820 - 09/16/06 01:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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as far as ive been reading some do and some dont. i tried it once and it did initiate pinning.
but that will all happen either way once you put it in the fruiting chamber.
so is cold shocking an idea that was put in there sometime, realised it did initiate pinning so somebody decided to use it, i mean its not like it speeds anything up right?
so yea, im kind of confused i have a cake thats 100% right now i caan shock it or fruit it. any suggestions?
edit: ... or wait for 2 more cakes o become 100% and try my luck with a casing?
Edited by the_END (09/16/06 01:24 AM)
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!
Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 5,958
Loc: Midwest
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: the_END]
#6066834 - 09/16/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I didn't when I did cakes . Dunk and roll or DEC this cake and try a little casing with the other 2 .
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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Westnile
Disease yo!
Registered: 08/23/06
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: HippieChick]
#6067060 - 09/16/06 08:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some people dunk and put their cakes in the fridge. If you want to experiment with cold shocking to see how it works for you this is a good way. Like say your already taking the time to dunk, why not throw it in the fridge? You know?
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esdfsfd
Stranger
Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 350
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Westnile]
#6067363 - 09/16/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i dunked my cause they were really dry and blue, got some monster fruits off them though...2 shrooms were each 1/8th ounce dry
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: esdfsfd]
#6067390 - 09/16/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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no person with any experience or knowledge would even consider cold-shocking a cubensis species.
we dunk in the fridge to ward of bacteria, that is the only reason.
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Westnile
Disease yo!
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 248
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: monstermitch]
#6067567 - 09/16/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hmm, funny. I have both experence and knowledge. I have dunked in the fridge and its worked really well. A drop in temp helps initiate pinning. No rocket science here.
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creamcorn
mad scientist
Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Westnile]
#6067632 - 09/16/06 12:30 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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what mitch said.
cakes belong in the fridge for one of two reasons: you're dunking and don't want them to become contaminated with bacteria (which can happen in a matter of hours otherwise at room temp), or two, you're purposely stalling it to save it for later, to delay birthing
cubensis is not a cold weather species. it does not need low temperatures to signal fruiting. the "temperature drop" as a pinning trigger happens automatically - a colonizing cake or substrate produces some of its own heat; when it gets to 100% it stops heating itself - and the combination of introducing that to fresh air so there's circulation around it is all the slight temp drop you need.
if you've cold shocked something, and saw it pin shortly after - well guess what, it was going to pin all the same. you didn't make it happen with the cold shock and if anything you delayed it slightly.
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CantiSama
Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 794
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Westnile]
#6067678 - 09/16/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Westnile said: Hmm, funny. I have both experence and knowledge. I have dunked in the fridge and its worked really well. A drop in temp helps initiate pinning. No rocket science here.
the fallacy of association as causation - just because it was in the fridge doesn't mean it that is why it pinned.
i have a magic tennis ball that keeps me alive. i am alive, so the tennis ball must be magic. right? no.
--------------------
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
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2FiNiTe
ConsideratlyKilling Me
Registered: 06/12/06
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: CantiSama]
#6068367 - 09/16/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
CantiSama said:
Quote:
Westnile said:
i have a magic tennis ball that keeps me alive. i am alive, so the tennis ball must be magic. right? no.
A fact too many times overlooked, the damn magic tennis ball.
-------------------- "Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war that we know about peace, more about killing that we know about living." General Omar N. Bradley
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Westnile
Disease yo!
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 248
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: CantiSama]
#6068420 - 09/16/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks guys I can really feel the love.
Its been noted on several forums for years now that cold shocking as a means for encouraging pinning is a viable practice.
Heres a page in the shroomery FAQ pointing out some of the benefits and uses of cold shocking. Cold shocking
Also according to Stamets: The Mushroom Cultivator, a 10 degree drop in temperature to 74-78 degrees Fahrenheit is generally enough to initiate the pinning process.
While it is true that in many cases the 10 degree drop has worked fine, as I'm sure you have experienced, there are cases where it doesn't work fine or a pin set could be greatly improved with a cold shock.
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Westnile]
#6068463 - 09/16/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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--------------------
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Westnile
Disease yo!
Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 248
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: monstermitch]
#6068510 - 09/16/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Soooo, from these posts provided by monstermitch, we can see that
a)There has been alot of debate about cold shocking in the past. b)Experenced culivators have different takes on cold shocking. c) cold shocking has successfully been used for stopping vegitative growth. Which means that it is used for more then warding of bacteria.
Are we cool yet?
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Westnile]
#6068596 - 09/16/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah, whatever works.
that's all that matters anyway.
if you get better results cold shocking, then do it.
in the end, we all want the same thing:
correct information for all, and success for all.
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hyphae
born to grow
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: monstermitch]
#6068644 - 09/16/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
monstermitch said: no person with any experience or knowledge would even consider cold-shocking a cubensis species.
we dunk in the fridge to ward of bacteria, that is the only reason.
I've always experienced positive results when fridge dunking cakes. I do not coldshock casings however but I do follow optimal parameters closely between incubating and fruiting. Cold shocking is also a valuable when working with very aggressive myc as well as coir based casing mixes but only the pros realize this and use it to their advantage.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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hyphae
born to grow
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Westnile]
#6068661 - 09/16/06 07:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Westnile said: Soooo, from these posts provided by monstermitch, we can see that
a)There has been alot of debate about cold shocking in the past. b)Experenced culivators have different takes on cold shocking. c) cold shocking has successfully been used for stopping vegitative growth. Which means that it is used for more then warding of bacteria.
Are we cool yet?
Well your a bright one! Welcome to the Shroomery bro you'll learn fast!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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the_END
Mr. E
Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 241
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: hyphae]
#6068752 - 09/16/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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well, jsut for your info. i gave that cake i menioned an 8 hour dunk, not refridgerated.. and so far its just chillen, no pins or knots
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gringoman
Stranger
Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 49
Last seen: 10 years, 8 days
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: esdfsfd]
#6069895 - 09/17/06 03:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
esdfsfd said: i dunked my cause they were really dry and blue, got some monster fruits off them though...2 shrooms were each 1/8th ounce dry
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: hyphae]
#6070179 - 09/17/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
hyphae said:
Quote:
monstermitch said:
no person with any experience or knowledge would even consider cold-shocking a cubensis species.
we dunk in the fridge to ward of bacteria, that is the only reason.
I've always experienced positive results when fridge dunking cakes. I do not coldshock casings however but I do follow optimal parameters closely between incubating and fruiting. Cold shocking is also a valuable when working with very aggressive myc as well as coir based casing mixes but only the pros realize this and use it to their advantage.
tc
-------------------- Laterz, Road Who the hell you callin crazy? You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch! Brainiac said: PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work
Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Roadkill]
#6070192 - 09/17/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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so I will officially change my position...
cold shocking has it's place with cubes, but those places are limited.
cold shocking should be used to halt overly aggressive mycelium, to halt mycelium from colonizing a coir based casing, or otherwise to stop vegetative growth.
because that's what the "cold shock" is doing, stopping the vegetative growth.
for the above mentioned cases, this can help bring on a pinset quicker than without a cold shock. but be warned that it may increase the time between flushes, therefore you may ultimately gain nothing in time.
Cold shocking should be used in moderation and only when it is needed. It is not a practice that will benefit all those who wish for quicker pinning. It will most likely slow down those people.
______________________________
as for cakes:
cakes are very, very dense.
they require much longer than a few hours to dunk. they need more like 24 hours for the water to truly be absorbed.
therefore, sitting in that stagnant water for so long, the cakes are for sure inviting contamination.
bacteria can bloom in hours if these dunking cakes are left at room temperature.
therefore, putting the cakes in the fridge for the dunk protects them. the low temperature will stop the bacteria from blooming and keep your cakes protected.
this is the only reason the fridge is used for dunking cakes, unless you're trying to stop the growth of the mycelium.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Roadkill]
#6070206 - 09/17/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Cold shocking" takes several days. You must indicate to temperature sensitive mycelium that a change in seasons has occured.
Dunking in the refrigerator is good practice because it keeps bacterial blooms under control while the organic material of the cake is under water.
However, it must be undestood that dunking for 24 hours in the refrigerator is NOT cold shocking.
Cold shocking is for edibles such as agaricus, shiitake, p nameko, shaggy manes, etc.
Tropical species do not benefit from a cold shock. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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hyphae
born to grow
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#6070234 - 09/17/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'll also add dropping the temps quickly and were talking core temps here guys not only slows vegetative growth quicker but also hastens the transition from vegetative growth the generative growth (fruiting) in cubies. And although I very much agree with RR I must say fridge dunking is most definitely cold shocking and has a direct response on myceliums growth. It isn't the same "cold shock" as our fall fruiting species use to trigger fruiting where it is needed and is one of the most important pinning triggers, which also can take much longer than several days as well.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: hyphae]
#6070255 - 09/17/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think vegitative growth is the wrong term, mycelial would probably be more apropriate
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hyphae
born to grow
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#6070275 - 09/17/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: I think vegitative growth is the wrong term, mycelial would probably be more apropriate
Vegetative growth is the proper term as is generative growth as mycelial growth never really slows (expect during transition) it's just simply put to a different means (use).
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Terillius
Renaissance Man
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Posts: 1,301
Loc:
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: hyphae]
#6071333 - 09/17/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Given that you want to put cakes in the fridge solely to prevent bacterial contamination during a 24 hour soak, can you leave them at room temp and use hydrogen peroxide water to soak them instead?
What if a partially contaminated cake from some kind of bacteria is dunked in h2o2 water and then returned to incubation? Could mycelium take over the previously contaminated area?
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creamcorn
mad scientist
Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Terillius]
#6071488 - 09/17/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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first question, yes.
second question, possibly. have personally succeeded doing basically that - h2o2/water dunk, then crumbling (mixing the uncolonized sketchy areas right in with the rest) and allowing to stitch together into a solid block in a tray. depends on how much substrate there is to go, and how agressive the bacterial contaminate is. usually bacterially contaminated cakes dont make it very far, but if it happened to make it almost to completion with little spots left that didn't go, you can pull it off.
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Terillius
Renaissance Man
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: creamcorn]
#6071548 - 09/17/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Looks like you are a fan of the stuff. I was searching away and found this post. I realize it is off topic, but it was very informative... Double thanks!
on hydrogen peroxide...
Quote:
creamcorn said: there's definitely no place for it in a colonizing pf tek jar. if you put it in before sterilization, it will degrade to just water and oxygen by the heat. and anything you try to add after sterilization just increases the chances you introduce contaminants... so its not a winning situation either way.
i do like a 1:10 solution (1 part 3% H2O2 to 10 parts H2O) when i dunk pf cakes. i do notice that cakes on 2nd or 3rd flushes "fizz" a lot when i place them in the water, yet interestingly they don't fizz when they're initially dunked after birth. so who knows, maybe having them exposed to the outside world for two weeks during a flush they've collected some nasties and the fizzing is the H2O2 killing it, or maybe its due to something else all together...
i use a 1:10 solution in my mister too... but i'm betting that doesn't do much... mainly because again H2O2 breaks down easy... and one of the ways to speed that up is by causing turbulence in the solution (ie, shaking). i'm wondering how much of it actually survives the nozzle on the spray bottle considering its already so dilute... but whatever, a 1L bottle is $1.50 and its peace of mind even if its a placebo.
using it as a substitute for sterilizing substrate doesn't work very well or at all, been there done that! sure it keeps contams away those first few days, but it doesn't kill contam spores! it does the same thing to contams as it does to mycelium: slows them or prevents them from growing... until its broken down. then boom, its like you didn't do anything at all, and everything latent that was hanging out already comes back in full force.
other uses like putting it in your humidifier, PMP style fruiting chamber, TiT water, etc, are mostly pointless, because of that breakdown... unless you keep re-upping it every 2 days or so.
it is useful when applied as is at its 3% concentration to cobweb mold on casings, it will kill that on contact, but it definitely slows the mycelium down a few days until its broken down.
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creamcorn
mad scientist
Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: Terillius]
#6072193 - 09/17/06 09:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yes and no... i take back the comment about it not killing contaminate spores... i believe now it may actually oxidize some (but certainly not all, different contams are tougher than others)... and i have stopped using it in my mister water as i mentioned i never felt it did much, and not using hasn't had any negative consequences.
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hyphae
born to grow
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: creamcorn]
#6073785 - 09/18/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Peroxiding substrates from agar to grains has proven quite successful at controlling pathogenic outbreaks. Distilled water is all one really needs to use as it becomes pretty much sterilized through the manufacturing process.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!
Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 5,958
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: cold shocking, who does it? [Re: hyphae]
#6074268 - 09/18/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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