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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Al Quiada [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #6065537 - 09/15/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

alpharedecho said:
Don't insult my intellegence, we both know you were referring to me.




No, I was not referring to you. I do not think you are a candidate for suicide bombing or columbine. That was the navel gazing type neurotic sucker I was referring to, not their enablers, which is another kind of neurotic navel gazing nitwit. Not that I mean that you're one of them either. Narcissistic certainly, but probably not neurotic.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Al Quiada [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6065605 - 09/15/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
I believe bin laden's viewpoint is largely due to his sympathy for the majority of the Arab population which is desperately poor while having US supported govts who are wealthy beyond imagining.

So in a sense, if the majority of Arabs had a good job, food and other necessities in adequate numbers bin laden's life and viewpoint would be very different.




I am going to re- clarify my position and reason for jumping into this thread.

Eco said that people with jobs, food and friends do not become terrorists. I already pointed out how that is FALSE.

He then backed it up by saying, countries that have open trade policies do not breed terrorist and that open trade was the solution to stooping terrorist attacks and bombings on innocents.

Timothy McVay anyone?

Open trade may have virtues for putting the world in Nike's and Micky Ds at every street corner, but curing psychotic human mental and emotional disorders isn't one of them.

There is a group of Aborigines that are living quite peacefully, well fed and with a strong sense of friends family and community in Australias outback who live completely independent from the system of global open trade, materialism and economics.

Read Mutant Message from Down Under.  It's awesome :thumbup:

Anyway, I don't want to argue anything. I just wanted to correct what eco said about well fed, working people with friends do not become terrorists and that open trade is the solution to preventing terrorists acts, small or large, upon others. Not true as I have pointed out.

He's gotta look for his causes and solutions elsewhere. :wink:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineEconomist
in training
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: Al Quiada [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6065627 - 09/15/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
He wants Israel to give the holy land back to Palestine and for the U.S. to stop protecting and defending Israel and for the U.S. to get out of trying to make reform policies in their Nations.




This is one of the biggest misconceptions about Bin Laden.

The reality is, he doesn't really give a shit about the plight of the Palestinian people.

Bin Laden is primarily concerned with the Saudi Monarchy and how they govern their country. Look up his comments on the Saudi Monarchy if you don't believe me, his public comments putting them down begin around 1990-91. The anti-Israel crap didn't start entering his speached until the late 1990s (usually 1998 is the attributed year because of the fatwa, but a handful of comments came earlier), mostly to rile people up. His stated long-stated goal has been to "free Mecca" which he feels is under occupation, as long as the American military is aiding the "corrupt Saudi monarchy".

Again, this is all because he feels that the Saudi government has vastly mismanaged its people (and so we get into the whole starving bit) and he believes the monarchy have allowed America to grow richer while Islamic peoples suffer.

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
If he truly gave a shit about the down trodden in his region who are not eating, working and are without friends, he would use his families wealth to create more jobs, free food shelters and social clubs as well as use his families influence with his regions leaders to make their Nations be more like the U.S. and China that has open trade, which according to what I have been reading from your view, somehow magically solves all human tendencies towards greed, hate and desires for power over others.




His problem is that he holds ultra-nationalistic beliefs. He thinks that the only solution for Islamic countries to to adopt more and more extreme views of Islam. Look at his complaints: The Saudi government invited the US to help protect their country, and Bin Laden views this as a foreign occupation invited in by a corrupt monarch. At the time, Bin Laden wanted to resist Saddam by himself with a make-shift army, an offer the Saudi government turned him down on.

I don't know why he thinks that ultra-nationalism is going to work, I have a hard time finding any example of it ever working.

But therein lies the problem. There are people (and governments) in this world that are committed to approaches towards "self-betterment" which are complete dead ends. As long as those people are allowed to influence policy, we're basically screwed.

I don't think regime change is the answer, but it's clear that changes do need to be made on their end, not ours.

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InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: Al Quiada [Re: TrancedShroom]
    #6065870 - 09/15/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)




"Since the attack [9-11], I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such
surpassing stupidity that they must be addressed. You've heard them too.

Here they are:

1) "We're not good, they're not evil, everything is relative."

Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, nothing is relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying "We're good" doesn't mean, "We're perfect." Okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be the greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens.

2) "Violence only leads to more violence."

This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy
League university to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half measures lead to more violence. However, complete, fully thought through, professional, well executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not reeducated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead.

3) "The CIA and the rest of our intelligence community have failed us."

For 25 years we have chained our spies like dogs to a stake in the
ground, and now that the house has been robbed, we yell at them for not
protecting us. Starting in the late seventies, under Carter appointee Stansfield Turner, the giant brains who get these giant ideas decided that the best way to gather international intelligence was to use spy satellites. "After all, (they reasoned,) you can see a license plate from 200 miles away." This is very helpful if you've been attacked by a license plate. Unfortunately, we were attacked by humans. Finding humans is not possible with satellites. You have to use other humans. When we bought all our satellites, we fired all our humans, and here's the really stupid part. It takes years, decades to infiltrate new humans into the worst places of the world. You can't just have a guy who looks like Gary Busey in a Spring Break '93 sweatshirt plop himself down in a coffee shop in Kabul and say "Hiya, boys. Gee, I sure would like to meet that bin Laden fella. "Well, you can, but all you'd be doing is giving the bad guys a story they'll be telling for years.

4) "These people are poor and helpless, and that's why they're angry at
us."

Uh-huh, and Jeffrey Dahmer's frozen head collection was just a desperate cry for help. The terrorists and their backers are richer than Elton John and, ironically, a good deal less annoying. The poor helpless people, you see, are the villagers they tortured and murdered to stay in power. Mohammed Atta, one of the evil scumbags who steered those planes into the killing grounds is the son of a Cairo surgeon. But you knew this, too. In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war were upper-middle-class college kids who grabbed any cause they could think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. It's the same today.

5) "Any profiling is racial profiling."

Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the
New York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the
gazillionaire bin Laden family living in America were afraid of reprisals
and left in a huff, never to return to studying at Harvard and using too
much Drakkar. I'm crushed. Please come back. Let's all stop singing
"We Are the World" for a minute and think practically. I don't want to be
sitting on the floor in the back of a plane four seconds away from
hitting Mt.Rushmore and turn, grinning, to the guy next to me to say, "Well, at
least we didn't offend them."

SO HERE'S what I resolve for the New Year: Never to forget our murdered
brothers and sisters. Never to let the relativists get away with their
immoral thinking. After all, no matter what your daughter's political
science professor says, we didn't start this. Have you seen that bumper
sticker that says, "No More Hiroshimas"? I wish I had one that says, "No
More Pearl Harbors."

THIS NEEDS TO STAY IN CIRCULATION FOR THOSE WHO HAVE OR WILL FALL FOR THE
STUPIDITY GOING AROUND. PLEASE PASS IT ON!

"If you can read this, thank a teacher....
If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier."

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Al Quiada [Re: Economist]
    #6066580 - 09/15/06 10:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This is all interesting stuff on BL and very comedic. He should be working at the Improv.

Quote:

Eco said:
The reality is, he doesn't really give a shit about the plight of the Palestinian people.




Please keep telling that to all of the people who think Al Queda is Jihading for religious belief purposes.

(I think not personally, but anyway)

Quote:

Eco said:
Bin Laden is primarily concerned with the Saudi Monarchy and how they govern their country.




So naturally he would want to terrorize the U.S. on the other side of the globe :confused:

He has a bad sense of direction.

Quote:

Eco said: Look up his comments on the Saudi Monarchy if you don't believe me,




I'll believe anything you say he said. I just don't believe anything he says. :smile:

Quote:

Eco said:
His stated long-stated goal has been to "free Mecca" which he feels is under occupation, as long as the American military is aiding the "corrupt Saudi monarchy".




So the U.S., who is not enslaving anyone in Saudi Arabia that I am aware of, is aiding the country, contributing GREATLY to its GNP via buying it's oil, and giving it military protection from invaders, is the cause of his countries corruption, lack of islamic faith and poverity he says?

I'd like to know who taught him his math skills.

Quote:

Eco said;
Again, this is all because he feels that the Saudi government has vastly mismanaged its people (and so we get into the whole starving bit) and he believes the monarchy have allowed America to grow richer while Islamic peoples suffer.




So the U.S. gives them billions of dollars buying their oil from them, and somehow he believes we are getting wealthier while they get poorer?

Do you have anymore of his funny one liners that may help me understand how he added that up? 

Quote:

Eco said;
His problem is that he holds ultra-nationalistic beliefs.  He thinks that the only solution for Islamic countries to to adopt more and more extreme views of Islam.




What is the problem he needs an Islamic solution for? Does he think extreme islamic views will put an end to his corrupt monarchy? If so, how does his math work on that one. What sort of corruption is he accusing the SA Monarch of commiting anyway?

It doesn't make sense regardless because, you said earlier that he doesn't give a shit about the Palestinian Islamic concerns to recover their holy lands in Isreal to help them strengthen their faith as they say having it back will do.

Which is it Bin Laden? :crazy2:

Someone get him replying in this thread already. Whose got Bin Ladens phone number?

 
Quote:

Eco said;
Look at his complaints: The Saudi government invited the US to help protect their country, and Bin Laden views this as a foreign occupation invited in by a corrupt monarch.




:what: Again, his problem he says is his own corrupt monarchy. Why isn't he terrorizing them instead of us and western Europe? 

Someone needs to give that man a geography lesson, map and compass. His sense of where his enemy is and aim is really off target.

I wish you had more on him to see where he faults the U.S. for a weak Islamic faith in Saudi Arabia.  I'm not aware that our military has been acting as evangelists trying to convert Islamics, putting anyone into slavery, or seatling their money from them.

Anyone have any links supporting or suggesting the U.S. is actually doing these things in Saudi Arabia as Bin Laden accuses us of doing? Maybe Bin Laden knows something we don't.

Unless of course, he has paranoid delusional problems.

Quote:

Eco said:
At the time, Bin Laden wanted to resist Saddam by himself with a make-shift army, an offer the Saudi government turned him down on.




BL is a piece of work. First he accepts our help training and weapons when putting up a resistance to Russia invading Afghanistan, and then is insisting on rejecting it,when we want help resist Saddam from invading Kuwait and maybe SA, next.

Damn BL is a fickle fuck.:lol:


Look at a mock break down.

Bin Laden says, "I am pissed at the saudi monarchy for being corrupt and my own people for being weak ass islamist as well as the U.S. for putting a military base in my country to help fight off invasions from Iraq. I wanted to fight off Saddam and the Iraquis myself with my own army. :grin:

Bush says, "We invaded Iraq because we believed Saddam was making WMD that he was going to sell to Bin Ladens army, for them to use against the U.S, as well as harbor Bin ladens army (al queda).

All the while, Bin laden is mad at us for helping us fight off Saddam and his army.

Does not compute, Does not compute. What a circular cluster fuck of nonsensicle logic that all is. Think about it. It will hurt your brain.

Quote:

Eco said:
I don't know why he thinks that ultra-nationalism is going to work, I have a hard time finding any example of it ever working.




Maybe he doesn't really believe it will either and every reason he gives for why he does what he does is a bunch of BULLSHIT. Ever consider that? :smile:

Quote:

Eco said:
But therein lies the problem.  There are people (and governments) in this world that are committed to approaches towards "self-betterment" which are complete dead ends.  As long as those people are allowed to influence policy, we're basically screwed.




He He he, I remember the first time politics and voting got my serious attention was when I heard Ross Perot say he was going to send the Lobbyists packing and make it illegal to lobby. Oh yeah, and he said he was going to shit can the IRS too. He got my attention and support. I had a glimmer of hope and voted for him and have been voting green ever since.

Sounds like from your last comment I quoted that you are a tad more aligned with where I sit then I originally thought. I sit seeing the BIG MONEY behind the lobbyists (influence as you put it) shaping the world as it best serves their pocket books and private interests.

Quote:

Eco said:
I don't think regime change is the answer, but it's clear that changes do need to be made on their end, not ours.




You'd think it would be just as clear to BL and he would be bombing the Saudi Arabians instead of the U.S.'s, and preaching Islam in the streets of SA to get what change he wants to come from them.

Or were you talking about IRAQ?

What does Regime change in Iraq have to do with Bin laden being upset with his corrupt Saudi Arabian Monarchy and its countries lack of Islamic faith and poverity and his taking his frustrations  out on the U.S and Western Europe?

Tooooo much doesn't make sense about what BL says related to lining up with what Bush says about him.

Did you catch the quote of the week Paradigm put up in the pub from Bush?

It fits perfectly here. Bush said in his recent interview with Katie Couric

"The hardest part of my job is connecting Iraq with the war on Terror"

No kidding Mr. President? :smirk:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Al Quiada [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6066648 - 09/15/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, bin Laden did use his money for shelters, hospitals, schools etc. in Afghanistan in both the 1980's and right up until the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. Everything there is to possibly know about OBL has been well documented by Peter Bergen. OBL, not surprisingly, believes he is a righteous man fighting a righteous cause. That being said, to Osama and his ilk his attacks aren't terrorism. He has elaborate justifications for his atrocities, especially in regard to 9/11, which he believes was a military operation against the "enemy's" economic and military epicenters. However, the reality of the attacks are different, as the hijackers struck at a time during the day that would ensure the maximum civilian casualities. At the end of the day, these are just the cognitive distortions of a religious fanatic who murders in the name of "Allah, the Most Merciful and Most Compassionate".


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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