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OfflineAldous
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Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what?
    #6059917 - 09/14/06 07:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Zembla is an often controversial investigative program on Dutch national TV. Always revealing, high quality and balanced. Since they're not prejudiced, they decided to take a close look at the main 9/11 conspiracy claims and have them analyzed by a multidiciplinary team from the Technical University of Delft. They also simulated the Pentagon flight on a simulator, and asked Holland's leading controlled demolition expert to comment on the collapses.

Here are the results:
The Twin towers: According to Danny Jowenko, the controlled demolition expert, those towers fell by themselves, because the collapse started at the impact points, and explosives placed there would have detonated at 300°C, i.e. on impact of the planes. Some scientists on the team argued that a spontaneous thermite reaction could have taken place with ingredients present in the building.

The Pentagon: A Hanjour-like semi-rookie did not have too much difficulty reproducing the flight path of flight 75 and hit the Pentagon on all three attempts, although a few parameters seem to have been missing. According to the producers of the program, the conclusion, based on the simulated flight, and the analysis of the damage and the debris, is that it is more likely that a 757 hit the Pentagon than something else. They accuse Dylan Avery of outright lies on this subject in Loose Change. You can watch the simulations here in Dutch.

WTC7: Here it comes. The footage was presented to the CD expert, who obviously had never even heard of the building. He called it a great job, demolition without a doubt. When he heard it had taken place on 9/11, he couldn't believe what he heard. He said it would take a lot of people and speed to manage such a job in only a few hours. When he heard the building was empty and on fire at the time, he still couldn't believe what he heard, but he maintained his conclusion. Jowenko is not a self-proclaimed expert, he's referenced on implosionworld.com as a "licensed blaster" and considered as Holland's leading expert. You can see the footage here, with subtitles in English).

The producers of the program acknowledge they couldn't address all issues, and that their findings are not final. They do however consider that claims of unanswered questions should be taken seriously, considering the importance and worldwide consequences of the events. Their own conclusion is that the Bush administration at least knew what was coming and let it happen, and took the occasion to blow up WTC7. They sought cooperation from the FBI, the FAA, Norad, the NYSE (insider trading), etc., but didn't get anything whatsoever.

Thumbs up for these unprejudiced journalists! Although I think they could have gone further (they didn't analyse the problem of the molten steel and left aside a bunch of other issues), I guess we would know much more if at least a few more press people worked like they should: in search of truth instead of arguments to fuel their worldview.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Aldous]
    #6060260 - 09/14/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If possible, could you drum up some links regarding their overall studies and the methods of research used to determine their findings?

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OfflineAldous
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Redstorm]
    #6060294 - 09/14/06 10:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is announced online tomorrow, but I'm afraid it will be in Dutch. I will point to it as soon as I have it though.

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Aldous]
    #6060772 - 09/14/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

He said it would take a lot of people and speed to manage such a job in only a few hours




Most qualified people to do that on planet earth = US special forces.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineAldous
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6060887 - 09/14/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You don't get the point. Nobody claims this job was done in a few hours. Some people claim it was controlled demolition planned well in advance, others claim it was spontaneous collapse by fire and damage. The 'lot of people and speed' idea was a misconception of the expert who wasn't aware the building was empty and on fire at the time. Nobody claims it was really planned and executed in a matter of hours in this case.

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Aldous]
    #6060910 - 09/14/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Nor do I believe it was planned in a matter of hours  :lol: I'm just pointing out, if anyone can pull it off, it's US special forces and their commanders.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Aldous]
    #6060915 - 09/14/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

To me, the most outstanding piece of this puzzle is how the hell did terrorist passports survive a plane crash, a gigantic explosion, an inferno, and a building collapse?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

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OfflineAldous
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Redstorm]
    #6060969 - 09/14/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

@ Redstorm

All I can give you is this: an official presentation at TU Delft of the research project and its results (click on "View: conclusies zomeropdracht Case 9/11"). It's video in Dutch, apparently combined with a slideshow. I guess that will be it. I don't think they go into WTC7, as this wasn't part of the university team's assignment.

On a more general note, someone spoke to the demolition expert after the TV broadcast, and it's remarkable to see the same thing happening as with Van Romero. He's a bit upset about all the fuss his comments have elicited, and says there's no reason at all to doubt the official story. He even says he remembers the media coverage at the time of the attacks clearly stated the building had been voluntarily brought down as a precaution, although he himself admitted this would be extremely difficult under normal conditions, and implied it was impossible with the base of the building on fire. Of course, he's not telling the truth, since - allegedly except for Silverstein - no-one ever officially stated that the building had been demolished on purpose to avoid worse damage or whatever.

Obviously, nobody wants to be "the expert who defies the US government". Understandably so, I guess.

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OfflineJ4S0N
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Aldous]
    #6061019 - 09/14/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineKamek
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: J4S0N]
    #6065412 - 09/15/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I watched the zembla program on 9/11 on TV and i remember that most of the pentagon and WTC arguments Loose Change uses are disproven...

The most interesting part was indeed the part in which the explosives expert was interviewed, he seemed very professional about the subjects they discussed.

So this way a lot of the conspiracy theries may have been disproven but some very important questions remain. There must be things they aren't telling because there are still too many holes in the story.

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Offline5150
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Kamek]
    #6065606 - 09/15/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

all u have to do is look at the video u can hear the explosions all the way over in new jersey
why would building 7 go down when it wasnt even hit by an airplane
the people that don,t believe it will never believe the gov. had anything to do with it, they r people who r blindly patriotic and will volunter to go take over sovereign countrys, vote republican, and always believe "america is the best" idiots


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: 5150]
    #6065687 - 09/15/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

building 7 is way off base, it had minor damage, yet collapsed.......


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: daimyo]
    #6065846 - 09/15/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
To me, the most outstanding piece of this puzzle is how the hell did terrorist passports survive a plane crash, a gigantic explosion, an inferno, and a building collapse?




yup.

See, I can see the remote possibility of WTC7 collapsing due to fire and structure damage. I am undecided, but I can see how it could be physically possible. But I cannot even imagine Atta's passport surviving intact and being so conveniently found.

September 11th does not add up.

Either the passport was fabricated and planted on the scene or the supposed finding was just a lie. If the passport was planted, that means conspiracy. If the passport story was a lie, then that demonstrates sufficient prior knowledge.

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Vvellum]
    #6065881 - 09/15/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Look at the videos on this site.

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Luddite]
    #6065898 - 09/15/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yeah, so, what about them?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Vvellum]
    #6066096 - 09/15/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Atta's passport wasn't found. It was the passport of one of the other terrorists -- not that it makes much difference except to illustrate how the Truthers can't even get their facts straight about things they tout as "proof" of conspiracy.

In addition, several other small personal effects of passengers were found intact. It is not unusual in the slightest for fairly light objects inside a crashed plane to end up being ejected relatively unscathed fairly large distances from the body of the crashed airplane. Not common, mind you, but not that unusual either.



Phred


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Phred]
    #6066202 - 09/15/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Is that what these people are calling themselves, 'Truthers'?


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Gijith]
    #6066941 - 09/16/06 05:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Many of them, yes.



Phred


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Aldous]
    #6066963 - 09/16/06 06:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Building 7 could be taken down with explosives with or without a conspiracy and after the attack if you happen to have a highly skilled military demolition team.

There can be perfectly legitimate reasons to take down Building 7 too, so in any case it remains possible.

I think built-in charges are in place in certain strategic buildings to bury top secret data in the interest of national security, and that this "self-destruct mechanism" was used to take the building down, or triggered by the fire.

They obviously do not want the general public to know that certain buildings of strategic importance are rigged.

If you look at top secret stuff, you see that every possible thing under the sun has at one time been rigged with some kind of self-destruct mechanism. Secret documents on combustion-enhanced paper, high tech equipment with small thermite charges inside, ship logs with lead covers so they sink when thrown overboard, harddrives that can be erased in an instant. I don't think that buildings with a self-destruct mechanism are just something you see in the movies, and if thats the case then Building 7 would be a likely candidate to be one.

And again, no conspiracy or outrageous speculation is needed. A conspiracy might exist, but its not needed to cause what we have seen.


--------------------
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higher knowledge starts here

Edited by Asante (09/16/06 06:21 AM)

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Dutch TV program takes scholarly look at 9/11, and guess what? [Re: Gijith]
    #6067075 - 09/16/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Is that what these people are calling themselves, 'Truthers'?





In the Soviet Union, they had a newspaper called Truth. The Soviet Union was one of the greatest lie and disinformation generators on earth. Islam has always been the greatest lie and disinformation generator on earth and the 911 Truthers are allied with the worse Islamic extremists.

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