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InvisibleAlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
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Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
    #6056137 - 09/13/06 03:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The point is, those nations that truly want to develop peaceful nuclear technology, nuclear reactors for power generation, create civilian agencies or field the program out to existing civilian agencies.

Meanwhile, countries that want to build nuclear weapons get the military involved.

Iran's nuclear program is overseen by the military, thus it is reasonable to assume that they are attempting to build weapons.




And what are we exactly doing that is so different from their intent?

Playing police?


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
    #6056283 - 09/13/06 05:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Okay, here's some reasoning:

FACT: Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons
FACT: The President of Iran has said Israel should be wiped off the map

So, at the very least, there's one problem that's going to happen in the future if something isn't done...



With respect to your first fact, while it's somewhat astonishing that people haven't learned to be more conservative in using the word 'fact' after the debacle leading up to Iraq, you're likely -- though by no means definitely -- correct.

What I feel needs to be pointed out though, is that Iran is almost certainly not developing these weapons with the express intent of obliterating Israel, regardless of what their President says. Rather, having seen the difference between US action towards Iraq and US action towards North Korea, it's developing these weapons as a means of deterrence to US bellicosity.

Ahmadinejad's rhetoric may have led you to believe that he's completely irrational, but I can assure you this is far from the case. He's fully cognizant of the fact that obliterating Israel and/or giving Nuclear Weapons to terrorists -- even if doing so would make him unbelievably content in his ideal world -- is far from in the best interest of his country.

It is my belief, then, that most of his rhetoric is nothing more than bluster designed to curry favor among both his own people and, perhaps more importantly, the Arab Street. Ahmadinejad is engaged in an unbelievably high stakes gamble. He's banking on the West having neither the resources nor the public will to back up its threats, and to this point it looks as if he'll have gambled correctly.

If Israel believes that Iran having Nuclear Weapons is completely antithetical to its national interest, it is its sovereign prerogative to do something about it. But, contrary to what most every politician would have you believe, Israel's interests are NOT the same as America's interests. I believe it is both in the best interest of itself and in the best interest of the Middle East at large for America to not intervene militarily in Iran. The consequences that would redound from such an action are beyond anyone's ability to predict, but given America's already precarious position abroad, it is beyond me how how we would deal with a newly belligerent Iran.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineRosettaStoned
Stranger

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 9 days
Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Ancalagon]
    #6057146 - 09/13/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Good post. I agree they are likely following NKs lead on the nuke issue. They have seen when the US thinks you might have a nuke we won't fuck with ya. Thus it's only logical after seeing iraq, that iran must now develop/buy nuclear tech to protect against american military action. If they stop developing all nuke tech, it wouldn't matter, we would still say they are hiding it (see iraq). So they are in a no-win situation, damned if they do, damned if they don't so to speak. There is no way to shed their image and "follow the rules" at this point.

Isn't it great how we are "safer" all these years later after 9/11?  :rolleyes:


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineEconomist
in training
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Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Ancalagon]
    #6057507 - 09/13/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
What I feel needs to be pointed out though, is that Iran is almost certainly not developing these weapons with the express intent of obliterating Israel, regardless of what their President says. Rather, having seen the difference between US action towards Iraq and US action towards North Korea, it's developing these weapons as a means of deterrence to US bellicosity.




That may or may not be true.

Personally, I didn't care when Pakistan and India developed nuclear weapons because it really didn't matter. They both bave governments that the people of their nations more-or-less support that are dedicated to admirable aims, like the benefit of their populace, and even aims of developing an open society (even if Pakistan is too corrupt and India is too socialist).

Iran doesn't match this at all. The stated goal of Iran (and it's clearly supported by a majority of the populace, given the relative stability in Iran compared with other nations) involves a convoluted intersection of Sharia Law, conservative interpretations of Islam, and a hate of Judaism.

Maybe their decisions right now have only to do with survival, I don't know. I certainly never advocated "militant action" against Iran.

However, I do think that President Bush has a point when he says that this is a problem that won't go away if we don't deal with it.

Iran having nuclear weapons is not going to help anyone. Now, why we aren't focusing on forcing Iran to open their doors to trade, instead of bullshitting around with their nuclear program, I don't know. But if we don't take steps to force changes in Iran's goals, there's no way a nuclear armed Iran is good for the future.

Maybe they won't attack Israel in the next 10 years, but what about the next 20? The next 50? Once Iran has nuclear weapons, they're not likely to just "go away".

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