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 Schwammel
Auk
Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 845
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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 Re: intuition and programming  [Re: Icelander]
#6072160 - 09/17/06 08:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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LMAO
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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Schwammel]
#6072170 - 09/17/06 08:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Meds
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6072229 - 09/17/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"The abstraction is recognized with intuition. Something profound is happening or such. Then we can mistakenly personify it to a cultural program and then get caught up in the program itself instead of the intuited revelation."
to recognize something AS something is a rational process, not intuition. When do any of our thoughts or actions not have a rational process behind them? I'm not trying to get caught up in semantics here  Just looking at the mechanics of thinking.
Intuition to me applies of some higher order of processes, and to seperate that from our everyday patterns of thought I think is very misleading.
Another way to ask is "what does it mean to 'trust' ourselves?"
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: kaiowas]
#6072243 - 09/17/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think I ever stated that intuition isn't rational. It would have to be to be correct. Intuition is unclouded rationality, unclouded by cultural programming that must adapt everything to something in the program. We are not at odds here.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Quote:
I think that we might be prone to misinterpreting intuition because we are not able to really utilize it in the first place.
Speak fer yeself.
Quote:
I think that intuition is the result of a balance between the subconscious mind and the conscious mind in one's present experience.
Its all simply speculation, but I think that the more one is aware of one's state of being, thinking is intuition.
Ja or nei? What do you think?
I think speculation is what the analytical mind does. Intuition works very differently then mental analytical speculation. It's just a strong knowing that overcomes you from out of no where. There is no thinking involved that brings it up.
However, like Ice said, once the knowing pops up, people rush to interpret it, and that's when the analytical mind starts the speculation process on it and usually decides to ignore the insight, because it came without any basis or reasoning for it.
Thats how you know what just came over you was from intution. There was nothing to support such a thought feeling, idea or image just prior to recieving it. It literally comes from out of no where.
My goal is to one day live purely off of intuition. So far, its proven itself an awesome guide, when its working and I listen to it. I dislike the times it goes quiet on me. Feels like being completely in the dark by comparison.
I still engage in the bad habit of thinking my way through things and I pay for it. When I switch gears and start feeling my way trough things is when, life gets so much easier, almost effortless and the bonus bucks of life come pouring in.
Just comments on my experience with it.
 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6072356 - 09/17/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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This past year for me has been an experience in learning to trust my intuition, and it has served me well. It began with a mystical experience much like the one you describe in your first post(though I had the insight to realize that Christ was found within, and was one of many possible emanations of the same divine presence), and has led me here to where I am today, in my own apartment, with a new job, in a new city. Just one month ago, I couldn't have imagined being where I am today. Everyone needs to find their Tao. Once you find it, things will fall into place as they should.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6072396 - 09/17/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I don't think I ever stated that intuition isn't rational. It would have to be to be correct. Intuition is unclouded rationality, unclouded by cultural programming that must adapt everything to something in the program. We are not at odds here.
the definition of intuition is "instinctive knowing without the use of rational process."
choose another word then to use if that definition isn't what you are speaking of. not trying to be a by the book kinda guy, but as far as definitions go I have to use them or else there isn't solid ground for us to speak on.
to go back then, you think your rational process is always right...then how does that leave room for change, to grow, to expand?
or would you say the rational thought process already has growth embedded in it?
good thread btw icelander  that's what my rational says anyway
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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"I think speculation is what the analytical mind does. Intuition works very differently then mental analytical speculation. It's just a strong knowing that overcomes you from out of no where. There is no thinking involved that brings it up."
The strong knowing is a result of many thoughts towards your specific rational interpretations. If you were presented with the same physical situation (say the option of talking to new people) in two different 'places' (say a bar and a forest), whether you 'intuition' would give you the go to want to talk to people or not, would depend on what your brain picks up. There's still rational thought behind a seemingly instant 'feel' I know what its like to 'feel' that something is not right, or something IS right! But it still comes from your environment and how your rational mind reacted to it, does it not?
just to note, I'm not saying these are my true beliefs in any way, but I had these thoughts while reading this post and feel I should represent them in order to see what you guys think.
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: kaiowas]
#6072478 - 09/17/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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What you're describing sounds like good old fashion Instinct to me, (picking up subconsciously on environmental cues). It's intuitions more primitive kinfolk.
Instinct can often be waaaaaay off. For example, instinct has us pre pre- programmed to feel fear when someone big and mean looking is present, even though, they are being friendly and may have the disposition of a Teddy Bear.
Or, instinct may have you punch someone in the face who you think is stealing your wallet from you when all they were doing was shoving it deeper INTO your pocket so no one else would easily steal it from you.
Sometimes, it is right on the money.
Anyway, they are different which is why there are two different words and meanings for them. What you described sounds like instincts function. What does websters say on it?
edit typo
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (09/17/06 10:30 PM)
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kaiowas
lest we baguette
Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
What you're describing sounds like good old fashion Instinct to me, (picking up subconsciously on environmental cues). It's intuitions more primitive kinfolk.
Instinct can often be waaaaaay off. For example, instinct has us pre pre- programmed to feel fear when someone big and mean looking is present, even though, they are being friendly and may have the disposition of a Teddy Bear.
Or, instinct may have you punch someone in the face who you think is stealing your wallet from you when all they were doing was shoving it deeper INTO your pocket so no one else would easily steal it from you.
Sometimes, it is right on the money.
Anyway, they are different which is why there are two different words and meanings for them. What you described sounds like instincts function. What does websters say on it?
edit typo
haha, now webster isn't my bible mmmk
what does it mean to you when some talks about 'trusting ourselves'
is trusting intuition trusting yourself?
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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: kaiowas]
#6072639 - 09/17/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hehehe,
I just meant to say that instinct and intuition are two different functions and your first definition of intuition was on the money for matching what the experience is like and the second was on the money for matching what the experiences of instinct is like.
Blapholabashiba anyway............
What do we mean when we talk about trusting ourselves? Hmmmmm good question. I can't speak for everyone.
To me, its pretty interchangeable with my level of experience and due to it, confidence in an area or about something.
In other words, I am not going to trust myself to do or say the smartest thing in an area completely foreign to me, or one, I always screwed up in the past. I will trust myself in an area that is very familiar to myself that I had a lot of proven successes with.
Thats where I am coming from if I ever say, "I trust myself".
Trusting myself isn't the same to me as saying, I trust my intuition. When intuition goes dark on me, I may find myself facing things I have no experience or familiarity with and my confidence level in dealing with it might not be to high and therefor nor will be my sense of trusting what I am doing or saying is right or smart.
That's when I get cautious, back up, watch, ask a shitload of questions, study and learn. I do trust that ability and eventually, know, I can face anything new I wish too with some level of confidence and trust in what I have learned in time.
Trusting my intuition requires NONE of that. If its there, I can be in any unfamiliar territory and my forge my way through with its light and guidance feeling tremendous trust and confidence in what I am doing and saying.
That's just my answer to the question.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6072716 - 09/17/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm not sure what you mean by "intuition", but psychologically speaking intuition is an ingrained instinct. It is an extremely simple and unconscious heuristic process used to prevent yourself from being harmed. For example, I think most people are aware of the "flight or fight response", although they may not be aware of how this response effects their specific behavior. As the name suggests, this is a very quick and mechanical way of determining whether to stick around or get the hell out of there. This process is not explicit and effects our attitudes in mostly subliminal and covert ways.
In this sense, intuition seems to be neither right nor wrong. It seems to achieve it's purpose, preventing the organism from being harmed, quite efficiently... yet it isn't always the 'best' choice. Your intuition may cause you to run away, either physically or psychologically, from a person who actually is harmless, but due to some confusion appears dangerous. While this will prevent you from being harmed, you may feel foolish afterwards, regret running away, miss an opportunity to meet someone new, etc.
Can this type of intuition be used to 'discover the truth'? I highly doubt it! It seems entirely based on avoiding harmful situations, with no concern for the truth. It is based on the appearance of the situation rather than all the rational processes actually going on behind that situation. (Thinking about all those goddamn rational process just takes to much goddamn time, goddamnit. You need to be able to decide what to do in a dangerous situation quickly.)
The only other kind of intuition I know of is a religious concept synonymous with "direct perception" or "instant knowledge." It all seems chimerical to me. I think it is the same process I talked about above misunderstood and, as what so often happens with misunderstandings, deified. But, I won't get into that.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (09/17/06 11:58 PM)
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Here are both of the definitions for Intuition and Instinct. You all can decide which word best fits what you mean to say or convey. 
Intution is pretty clear and defined. Instinct has so many definitions it can mean lots of things, including intuition. 
Note that intuition is not based on a biological responce to external stimuli in any case. Some forms of instinct can be considered intuitive, however. That's why I made the destinction when I saw definitions for instinct being used for the word intuition when they do not apply to the meaning of the word intuition.
If this thread topic is to be about subconscious or genetic programming, then what we are talking about here is instinct, not intuition.
Intuition
in-tu-i-tion/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-too-ish-uhn, -tyoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. direct perception of truth, fact, etc., independent of any reasoning process; immediate apprehension.
2. a fact, truth, etc., perceived in this way.
3. a keen and quick insight.
4. the quality or ability of having such direct perception or quick insight.
5. Philosophy. a. an immediate cognition of an object not inferred or determined by a previous cognition of the same object.
b. any object or truth so discerned.
c. pure, untaught, noninferential knowledge.
Instinct
in-stinct / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-stingkt]
–noun 1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.
2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.
3. a natural aptitude or gift: an instinct for making money.
4. natural intuitive power.
–adjective 1. filled or infused with some animating principle (usually fol. by with): instinct with life.
2. Obsolete. animated by some inner force.
n.
An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli: the spawning instinct in salmon; altruistic instincts in social animals.
A powerful motivation or impulse.
An innate capability or aptitude: an instinct for tact and diplomacy.
adj. (n-stngkt)
Deeply filled or imbued: words instinct with love.
Obsolete. Impelled from within.
in·stinct (nstngkt)
n.
An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli.
A powerful motivation or impulse.
Function: noun
1 : a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason
2 : behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level
adj : (followed by `with')deeply filled or permeated; "imbued with the spirit of the Reformation"; "words instinct with love"; "it is replete with misery" [syn: instinct(p), replete(p)] n : inborn pattern of behavior often responsive to specific stimuli; "the spawning instinct in salmon"; "altruistic instincts in social animals" [syn: inherent aptitude]
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant
Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6073256 - 09/18/06 07:33 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
If I take a trip and see some version of god. (lets say jesus) then I may believe that jesus is real and has visited me to let me know he is real and then often I would adopt some form of christianity and become a true believer.
or mescalito... remember the multi-model approach to interpreting such experiences presented in Cosmic Trigger? i still believe i saw jesus, but only on tuesdays 
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Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good.
If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.
It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.
I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: kaiowas]
#6073454 - 09/18/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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the definition of intuition is "instinctive knowing without the use of rational process."
Maybe I don't have the word for this yet. But even though intuition doesn't use the rational process, the outcome is always compatable with rationality. Otherwise intuition would be wrong and get us into trouble.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,172
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6073457 - 09/18/06 09:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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kiowas suggests that intuition is a higher order process on the one hand yet that it relies on instinct (hardwiring) on the other hand.
he also advances that instinct is a rational process on its own.
this all may be true too
if hardwiring includes the basic associative process,
instinctual insights or leaps are also associative results.
these connections are as rational as anything else, bearing in mind that rational thinking always involves a chain of connections, and this chain more than anything substantiates truth or believability.
in my terms:
for a single link - there is basic associative processing which links images or ideas from memory that are suitable to some stimulus in mind or environment. This could be the generic thing that we are hardwired for, yet it is not instinct per se since it is so generalized (instinct is a term applied to some specific behavior).
for a chain of links - rational thought emerges as a series of linked images or ideas one after another often surrounding some larger idea or zone of related ideas.
contrast with a chain breaking link- such as intuition which is an unexpected link that connects very disparate images accompanied by some astonishment; it behooves us because there is no substantiation by way of the chain that approaches the resulting image or thought, it just suddenly appears and is suitable.
really the intuitive leap is the same as any other single associative linkage, usually the scope of intuition seems greater than the average idea connection, yet the lack of related chainlink debris (or artifacts of thinking going on) often erodes its credibility.
often it can occur out of a chain, but it is so unlike other links that the chain seems broken or hangs badly to our logic censor.
contrast intuition with scholarly work where the weight of the bibliography is the chain that binds it to "truth" augmented by a few decorative chains of argument in support of the premise.
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 _  🧠_ 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: CosmicJoke]
#6073951 - 09/18/06 12:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
If I take a trip and see some version of god. (lets say jesus) then I may believe that jesus is real and has visited me to let me know he is real and then often I would adopt some form of christianity and become a true believer.
or mescalito... remember the multi-model approach to interpreting such experiences presented in Cosmic Trigger? i still believe i saw jesus, but only on tuesdays
right 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6074048 - 09/18/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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For me I see pure intuition is idea.
That is prior to the rational and irrational processes occurring in our mind.
The intuition based on instinct is some hard wired, programmed mechanical warning system, crossing over with a free associative intuition, which occurs in relaxed minds, and which may be only fed by the completeness of our mind itself. There is where the link is. Both are fed with concepts (the instinct based intuition and the 'free' one).
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6074415 - 09/18/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't know what intuition is. I speculate. I do think I see how it can be confused with and altered by our programs after it happens.
Here's a thought for you CC fans. Intuition=seeing; a direct knowing.
Maybe?
c
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: intuition and programming [Re: Icelander]
#6074506 - 09/18/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Intuition is way way before knowing.
Seeing gives an image of knowledge, which is fast to swallow.
Intuition leads our field of vision to be aware of what we need to compute (rationally or irrationally). Both.
Inner and outer visions to get in coherence. Both can be objective or subjective AND rational or irrational
And at the really really end, there stands knowledge, if we can even ever be sure about that
Edited by BlueCoyote (09/18/06 03:49 PM)
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