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OfflineSilverwolf
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U.K cyanescens indigenous or import?
    #6052525 - 09/12/06 08:58 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

We need desperately to answer the question whether p.cyanesecens has a true European expression or not, how long it has been here and whether there is a tradition of shamanic use. Would anyone with any information on the subject please post on this thread?

(wrong forum? It's up to you guys but I would like it visible to the shroom community it might get a bit buried in Ethno).


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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OfflineShroomeyfinder
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Silverwolf]
    #6052837 - 09/12/06 12:16 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Qoute from Wikipedia

Quote:

Psilocybe cyanescens grows on woody debris - in the presence of woodchips and mulched plant beds (particularly under rhododendrons). In the U.S., P. cyanescens occurs mainly in the Pacific Northwest, south to northern California. Among European countries, it is reported from Belgium, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland and United Kingdom. This species was likely introduced to Europe, where it occurs mainly in cemeteries, botanic gardens and city parks.




I hope this helps =+)


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Let us go dance into the night....and let the vibe of hundreds of awesome people surround us... let us get to know eatchother and everyone else..emotionally..spirtually..and mentally..please..can I hold you close..and protect you...can you hold me close and protect me...because even equivalent exchange must play it's role in a relationship...I want to find you, you are somewhere out there my lover...





Edited by Shroomeyfinder (09/12/06 12:17 PM)


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Shroomeyfinder]
    #6052885 - 09/12/06 12:34 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

This link suggests it has migrated to Europe from the US:
Quote:

...was first described (by Wakefield) from specimens growing in flowerbeds in Kew Gardens in 1946. It may have come from the Pacific northwest coast of the USA, although there is some uncertainty about cystidia on the gill faces (scarce or absent in type material, but found by Paul Stamets to be abundant in Pacific NW specimens).




Biology Daily lists ps. cyanescens as native to the US only:
Quote:

Psilocybe cyanescens (native to northwestern North America)




It seems that no extensive information is available on this topic on the net, so your best bet would be scientific literature on the subject. Perhaps you could start by looking up the Wakefield description (see above.)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: koraks]
    #6053690 - 09/12/06 04:37 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

indigeny and godliness are like george bush and apple pie.


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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Silverwolf]
    #6054396 - 09/12/06 07:37 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

This one I can answer.
Pluteus was doing some mapping work with Psilocybes - particularly Psilocybe cyanescens - from specimens from europe, the UK and the United States.
Traditionally Watling and others at Kew gardens had suggested that Ps.cyanescens had been introduced to the United Kingdom either from mainland europe or more specifically the united states either on imported plants or wood debris.
This variety of Ps.cyanescens was reported to lack cystidia - specifically pluerocystidia. As most people will tell you, Ps.cyanescens from America has shitloads of p.cystidia.
From the mapping project it became pretty clear that their had been TWO introductions of Ps.cyanescens into the united Kingdom - the first happened obviously some time ago and this strain has limited phenotype expressions, limited cystidia forms and it was pretty unimpressive in terms of its rigourousness. The source of the DNA of this variety was not found.
A second, more recent introduction of a species that has been identified in the united kingdom has lots of cystidia and last time i spoke to Pluteus he wasnt even sure whether it was Ps.cyanescens from america or a variety of Ps.subaeruginosa from Australia was running right through Kew Gardens and spreading further throughout the united kingdom. This variety had cystidia similar to the american version of Ps.cyanescens (which has reasonably similar cystidia to Ps.subaeruginosa).
The mapping project worked out that there were two original sources of Ps.cyanescens - the united states and an unknown less vigourous substrain, but BOTH were introduced to the United Kingdom.


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6054511 - 09/12/06 08:15 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
indigeny and godliness are like george bush and apple pie.




There's no need for sarcasm (philistine)...

:gethigh:


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6054536 - 09/12/06 08:23 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bluemeanie said:
This one I can answer.
Pluteus was doing some mapping work with Psilocybes - particularly Psilocybe cyanescens - from specimens from europe, the UK and the United States.
Traditionally Watling and others at Kew gardens had suggested that Ps.cyanescens had been introduced to the United Kingdom either from mainland europe or more specifically the united states either on imported plants or wood debris.
This variety of Ps.cyanescens was reported to lack cystidia - specifically pluerocystidia. As most people will tell you, Ps.cyanescens from America has shitloads of p.cystidia.
From the mapping project it became pretty clear that their had been TWO introductions of Ps.cyanescens into the united Kingdom - the first happened obviously some time ago and this strain has limited phenotype expressions, limited cystidia forms and it was pretty unimpressive in terms of its rigourousness. The source of the DNA of this variety was not found.
A second, more recent introduction of a species that has been identified in the united kingdom has lots of cystidia and last time i spoke to Pluteus he wasnt even sure whether it was Ps.cyanescens from america or a variety of Ps.subaeruginosa from Australia was running right through Kew Gardens and spreading further throughout the united kingdom. This variety had cystidia similar to the american version of Ps.cyanescens (which has reasonably similar cystidia to Ps.subaeruginosa).
The mapping project worked out that there were two original sources of Ps.cyanescens - the united states and an unknown less vigourous substrain, but BOTH were introduced to the United Kingdom.




Yeah but it's a difficult locating him as it is p.cyanescens! Plute where are you, we used to rap man? Damn it "I could have been a contender" (sorry)
O.K I guess maybe that is what he was trying to say to two (or is it three?) years ago. So my "druidic fantasies" are dashed. However they obviously grow better now due to climatic change. What happened to Plutes maps bud? I saw a small British map giving a location for p.cyanescens due north of Southampton onsite and I have recently seen pictures of them growing on a roundabout in Leatherhead!

I also thought that you guys might be interested in the rap I'm having with the guy that produced the most recent paper on active and non-active psilocybes in Britain (note he answers my/"our" question about about non-visible hosts for amanitas, but remember Lupophiles I'd say don't eat 'em .ed)

P.Shawwrote:
Dear Gerard
I have been trawling and found you to be one of the few researchersshowing a genuine interest in the active and non-active psilocybespecies.
To be fair although I have probably put out the most recent paper (atleast in The Mycologist), most other mycophiles keep an eye out forthese species too; most Psilocybes over here would be alien exotics inthe UK hence exciting to the twitcher mentality. I have good access to The New Forest. I
have been studying mycology in a "field work" fashion for over twentyyears ("on" and also "off" quite alot) all over England and Wales butnever expected the sh**storm of abuse I got over the "Haymaker"(Panaeolina Fonesecii), infact I was hoping to find p.cyanescens butstumbled into the controversy surrounding "P.F" instead. I maintain
they
are probably a chemically morphic shroom which becomes an activepsilocybe under certain conditions but God nows what they are!
I know nothing about any storm of abuse over Panaeolina foenisecii - canyou enlighten me? I believe that fruitbodies attributed to this speciescan prove to be psychoactive, but suspect that these are often mis-IDfor other Panaeolus species such as P sphinctrinus, which certainly doescontain various alkaloids. I can report no experience whatsoever of anyP. foenisecii having any active anything in it, but my sample size istoo small to generalise. I also
happen to know that p.cyanescens can be found in this area but have noidea where.
It will occur on fresh mounds of wood chips, probably in the back ofthe biggest poshest most formal garden in the area!! I've studied the use, preparation and mythology of
a.muscaria too and have drawn interesting conclusions about the
presence
or otherwise of certain plant sugars in a.muscaria and it's
relationship
to their ritual use (earlies being stronger with far differentmorphology etc.).
Now there you're deluding yourself. No-one has ever suggested thatsugars have anything to do with psycho-activity in any fungus, or plant.Muscimol, atropine and ibotenic acid - look them up! A. muscaria willfruit off roots of recently dead trees, also off dwarf willow which canseem not to be a tree at all. The chemical composition varies betweenclones, but never features the relatively safe indoles found inPsilocybe. Bluntly, if you value your nervous system, you shouldn't beeating Amanita muscaria; ibotenic acid is proven to causeneurodegeneration.There is a new forest fungus group - maybe you could go on some forayswith them for general fungal education? If you want Psilocybe, I'dfocus on P semilanceata since it's (a) reasonably safe and distinctive,(b) once you've found a spot it will be reliable for decades, unlike Pcyanescens whose colonies are evanescent.Do tell me about you foenisecii problems!BestPeter_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by The Roehampton University MailScanner and is believed to be clean
Well I'm not as wrong about this as you may think!
The controversy surrounding p.fonesecii concerns the work of two mycologists considered radical by some of the mycological community (one in America and one in Australia -I think-, there may be others) who suggested, as I said, that P.fonesecii becomes an active, and rather unusual, psilocybe under certain environmental conditions.
The process of photosynthesis which provides the plant sugars for a.muscaria to the mushroom through the hyphae , which is obviously at it's highest when trees are in fullest leaf and the research (maybe I can find the reference works, the work is rather buried now because I thought that everyone knew this) into muscimol content states that earlier amanitas have higher muscimol content (both when fruiting and when dried) than their later brethren. Also have you studied a.muscaria morphology? The "Lewis Carol" cap is not it's only expression!
As I understand it there is a European "sub-species" (?) of p.cyanescens. I have always wanted to know how long it has been here and whether it has anything like a tradition of shamanic use in Britain.
Ibotinol changes to muscimol when properly dried (not an illegal process in Britain, unlike that of drying -or now doing anything to!- psilocybes) and they become a much safer substance to take (I still wouldn't recommend it to anyone suffering from kidney problems though). The process is easily visible because once dried (I use a domestic fan heater for 3-6 or more hours there is a lot of water in an a.muscaria) the caps turn a rich gold, this is the "alchemical standard" for muscimol production.
Not all the wisdom of the world resides in the hallowed halls of Academia. I will gladly send samples of p.fonesecii to anyone wishing to do a full chemical analysis, however if the rumour is true this is a study which needs must be continued over a number of years!



Edited by Silverwolf (09/13/06 06:24 AM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Silverwolf]
    #6054668 - 09/12/06 08:55 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Ps.semilanceata is your answer - genuinely native id assume.


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6054719 - 09/12/06 09:09 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah I know (check out Tinyclangers remark on "German Semilanceatas" he has been reporting albinism in Welsh liberty caps,I didn't last year because I was in enough trouble already).


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Silverwolf]
    #6054894 - 09/12/06 10:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

sometimes your questions are only of for your own intellect and not for others because you always use the term that many are seeking this answer. In America, we do not hear these questions aked by hundreds of collectors of these shrooms whom we personally known. And sometimes some of your questions and your threaded posts are quite well more than a little bit off the wall..

Paul Stamets in mycelium running writes:
Quote:

The species represented in this group [re: Psilocybe cyanescens] are found throughout the temperate forests of the world, including, but not limited to the coastal Pacific Northwest of North America; northeast North America; the British Isles; and temperate zones of Europe, Eurasia, Asia, southern Argentina, Chili, and South Africa.




It is a northern species throughout the world, originating in the north of the planet. not introduced to usa or to uk, as you asked.

Again, Panaeolina foenisecii with its brown spores is not and never has been a psychoactive psilocybian mushroom Papers have been by both Ola'h, Tyler and others on both Psathryella, Panaeolina and the infamous not psychoactive species Panaeolus sphinctrinus. The results of their analysis were published but now are known to have been false positives, and I am currently rewriting some of those corrections also along with five other authors.

We are just finishing the SEM of several new species and chemical analysis of same. I am sorry I cannot post any of the data for this research until after the article appears. It will shortly be submitted for journal publicaition. At this moment, the paper is 130 pages in length and we are still awaiting final DNA on both Italian and Swiss liberty cap specimens and we are also doing SEM of Shroomey Dan's alledged P. caerulipes, which I hope Guzman soon gets to work on the specimens Dan and I sent to him.

Also the work of Catchu's P. laurae and P. villarealii. Those a SEMS will be made this morning and I should get the film within ten days or so.

one more thing, Stamets also added New Zealand and Australia as habitats of P. cyaescens, basing his response on my paper with Merlin on the Australian and New Zealand Psychoactive fungi. Where P. cyanescens does not occur, Our reporting oif that species in the continent were errors due to a paper by Margot and Watlin who did some comparative analysis of Australian species with English specimens of P. cyanescens and Merlin and I erred in adding the P. cyanescens tot he report we published inthe Journal of Psychoactive Drugs. That error was corrected inthe erowid website which hosts the Australian book..

mj


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6054952 - 09/12/06 10:17 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

There are no subspecies of P. cyanescens, again somemore misinformation from Kreiglesteiner who assumed that P. bohemica, P, maire, P. serbica and P. cyanescens were all the same species.

20 years ago I wrote they were not and Gartz finally showed they were separate species in several of his European English language papers.

In the PNW we have what we refer to as two variations. One is a bow-tie variation, but under the microscope one can still find the same species in both variations (Psilocybe cyanescens).

Trace elements in fungi according to Mycellium Running by Paul Stamets and the work of Stijve for thirty years on the same subject shows differences in the cystidiata of these species although the P. cyanescens may have slight differeces microscopically, the spores of the mushrooms deifinately delienate one species from another showing allo are P. cyanescens of those studied from around the world. They also occur in China.

While DNA sequencing will only be of interest to those who study it, Mushrooms will generally still be identifiable by their normal macroscopic and somewhat confusing microscopic physiologies.

Remember that Guzman has placed many species in certain stirps for their relationships to one another.


Thus the families say of P. stuntzii, P. sierrea, P. fimetaria,etc.; P. semilanceata, P. strictipes, etc., and he is now rewriting the revised Genus Psilocybe which will cover many of those answers everyone really wants to know. This time with many color photos, sems and dna sequencing among other things. Also P. mexicana, P. antioquensis and P. samuiensis are also very closely related both macroscopically and both microscopically.

P. samuiensis is the only mushroom foound outside of the Americas directly related to P. mexicana.

The P. antioquensis I discovered in cambodia is directly related to P. semilanceata and is also origianlly identified from Antios, Colombia and from Mexico.

You can add P. cyanescens, P. subaeruginosa, P. maire and others to the cyanescens stirps.

Also regarding sporeless liberty caps. We find those are common also in Oregon and Washingtron and British Colombia, and Newfoundland as well. I have posted same of wild cubes which were sporeless and also Psilocybe cyanescens.

Remember there were originally two species of P. semilanceata. First it was known as Agaricus semilanceatus, Then Deconica and finally Psilocybe similanceata. then one author noted some bluing reactions in some specimens and some which did not have a bluing reaction and so he renamed those which blued, Psilocybe semilanceata var. caerulescens.

No one really understands why some libs did blue and some did not, but partially dried to a golden sandy color and a pinch of a stem and placed under a hallyte the liberty cap will stain blue. Also if it is too cold, the caps will turn blue. You can see the buing of many species in the species index of the Shrooemry's Ultimate Shroom guide which represents 60 species and more than five thousand images. many of which have bluing sections to their species.

mj



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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? *DELETED* [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6055188 - 09/12/06 11:03 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by bluemeanie

Reason for deletion: k



--------------------


Edited by Zen Peddler (09/12/06 11:08 PM)


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InvisibleJim
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6055200 - 09/12/06 11:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

:stfu:


--------------------
Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6055835 - 09/13/06 02:08 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Hi Blue meanie, I errred in my writing about this situation but Silverwolf in his post above sid:
Quote:

As I understand it there is a European "sub-species" (?) of p.cyanescens




Now regarding my comments on two variations of P. cyanescens I was refering to macroscopic variations inthe Seattle region which, however, as I may have sounded off the wall, are common in Seattle but both variations are p. cyanescens. And a few slight other macroscopic variations inthe species.

It is the macroscopica characteristics of those two variations to which I was referring to.

While you and I know that both P. subaeruginosa and P. cyanescens can have a wavy cap. Well so can the cubensis mushrooms. i have dozens of those iamges.

however, here are two of the P. cyanescens mushrooms I referred to in my response above. These are bow-Tie cyans.






In those above images you see two of the adult bow tie shrooms.

Now see below for some convexed capped cyans.

]http://mushroomjohn.com/wcpcyan/wcpcyan38.jpg[/image]

Again no umbos and still becoming wavy in age


This adult specimen showed a striate margin and a specific umbo similar to that of P. azurescens. We find this once in a while on the cyans in the pnw. the smaller one cut off on the right was also one of the ones with convexed caps.




And some cyans with flat caps and no wavyness, also common.


Another of the flatened caps, only one with a little wavy in the cap. Also common in colder weather near freezing but not so cold it actually freezes.



And of course the wavy caps of the full grown adults hand held. Sorry I am in Bangkok or I would have used better images to represent what I was describing as a variation of the genera.





Now again, that wavy cap is a characteristic found in many of the genera psilocybe, including as I noted earlier, P. cubensis. IT too has wavy caps. A few images to show so.

[image]http://mushroomjohn.com/sa/44-SA-2-19-44.jpg[image]





This next image not only has a wavy cap but also a pitted wrinkled edges similar to P. baeocystis caps.

However, it is a cube.



Since this is a joke regarding this waviness and the bow-Tie variation vs. the wavy caps of P. cyanescens, P. subaeruginosa and sometimes even P. azurescens, then maybe we should add wavy cap P. cubensis to the same stirps. However, the cube has a veil and remnants so it cannot be included.
Agrocybes and many other genera also can have a wavy cap, but l;ack psilocine, etc.

Maybe this will help you understand my statement to which you responded to.

Now, regarding Paul Stamets quote.

You know that I generally do not quote him because he too carries errors in his books as do everyone else who writes an id book on shrooms and includes errors carried by others.

Christian Raatsch just reedited Schultes and Hofmann's Plants of the Gods and still carried Panaeolus sphinctrinus as a psilocybian mushroom used by the Mazatec shamans, while I have letters from Schultes who admits that was an error and a misidentified shroom which was originally included in Schultes and Rekos collections in the thirties and then analysed by others as containing psilocine/psilocybine. Later, in the 1950s, Singer found that that particular collection had many P. mexicana shrooms. But even the new u[pdated version of their book still carried the original error.

I still believe that P. cyanescens is probabaly 99% originally found in the northern hemisphere in woods of alder and other hardwoods from PNW to UK throughout Europe and into China where I have reports of it and pictures.. And that is its distribution.

mj

Have a shroomy day. Luckilly I am at Chula so I have computer access.

I should have explained my comments more thouroughly and I did not read them after posting them, only just now.

I still think Singers Agaricales stands up to much of the identification of families and species based on Linnaeus system of classification.

Those who work on the DNA of the mushrooms are not into mycology, they are into is DNA. Molecular science and have no interest in mycology as a whole. Only in the classification of it.

Hundreds of thousands of mushroom pickers of edibles and magic have no interested in the DNA of a shroom. They identify it by the books they get formt he libraries and form the amazon and stores in their area.

I leave that there since your generation has to deal with that aspect of mycological classification of species. Hawksworth says there are 1.5 million species of fungi to classify.

Good luck,

mj


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6055944 - 09/13/06 02:53 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting, but it doesnt address any of the issues I raised about your original reply.
Secondly:
'Those who work on the DNA of the mushrooms are not into mycology, they are into is DNA. Molecular science and have no interest in mycology as a whole. Only in the classification of it.'

Actually I know at least three people - including Pluteus who were involved in DNA mapping that are very much into mycology - eventually DNA will clear up the murky delineations that people like Guzman have made purely on minute cystidia differences, etc.


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6056157 - 09/13/06 05:58 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Thoughts gentle-readers..The only way we could establish any long term (post the retreat of the last ice-age)use (and therefore obviously presence) of p.cyanescens in Britain I can think of is to find an "in-situ" "bog-body" and examine the stomach contents for the sacrificial victims last ritual meal (even so even if we could find evidence of psilocybe use would we know which one? Also as bog sacrifices were popular post "Mesolithicum" any answer would hardly be definitive (which is what I said last time isn't it Plute?).


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6056198 - 09/13/06 06:31 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

"We" care (here in Britain) M.J but then we have environmental racial memories that date back unbroken for 12,000 years. Do you always have a go at people when you feel threatened M.J? I don't often show my teeth here M.J but back off! If you can't be "off the wall" in The Shroomery "we" all may aswell give up evolution as a bad idea right now.


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"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""


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Offlinepluteus
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Registered: 08/12/03
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: Silverwolf]
    #6057141 - 09/13/06 03:07 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Pluteus still lives; I am his colleague and am posting this message on his behalf.

Pluteus is still remanded on police bail following his arrest, a year and a half ago, for matters entirely unrelated to hallucinogenic mushrooms. The case carries on and it seems likely Pluteus will receive a custodial sentence of perhaps two years when he is eventually sentenced in several month's time. Although he continues to research part-time, his bail conditions deny him the use of the internet apart for strictly academic purposes and to his sincere regret Pluteus cannot actively participate in this forum. He does however wish to make the following information known to you.

Firstly, Pluteus' intial phylogenetic work on the P. cyanescens complex was rather incidental to his funded research and has not been written up for publication, although it may yet be; nevertheless, we will soon be uploading all of Pluteus' new Psilocybe DNA nucleotide sequences onto the GenBank database (at the NCBI website), so that this data is freely available to all researchers - including Pluteus himself when he returns to this work as is his long-term intention (we also understand there is a large-scale sequencing project of Psilocybe in progress headed by R. Vilgalys). As soon as the sequences are uploaded we will notify bluemeanie and others of the accession numbers as well as any relevant papers that have been submitted.

Secondly, Pluteus wishes to make clear that a definitive picture of P. cyansescens biogeography remains elusive pending further analysis of a much broader range of specimens representing all major localities (importantly, the 1946 type collection and auxillary collections of P. cyanescens which reside here at our workplace remains unanalyzed), and one that also integrates detailed information about morphological and mating behaviour traits. The major points which Pluteus' study demonstrated were that (a) populations of P. cyanescens in the UK at scales from nationwide to individual fruiting sites are non-clonal, contrary to what had been suggested by some authors; (b) most specimens of PNW cyanescens and British cyanescens were consistently genetically different at the single gene examined, with these differences being of the order of magnitude expected of two sister species; and (c) - not so far reported to anyone - UK P. cyanescens comprises at least three major genetically distinguishable subpopulations with the rarest type being correlated with 'naturalized' fruiting settings (e.g. several sites in Northamptonshire and Berkshire where morphologically typical P. cyanescens fruits directly from grassland with very little detectable underlying woody debris), with another of the sub-populations much more closely related to typical PNW lineages than it is to the others. To draw any final conclusions about the ultimate origins of the various P. cyanescens lineages based on these findings (and other more detailed ones originally reported to bluemeanie) would be premature; however some of the inferences reported by bluemeanie, particularly in terms of there having been an introduction from the PNW and also secondary introductions, can be regarded as well-supported if not yet statistically incontrovertible.

Silverwolf, Pluteus notes that you have been corresponding with Peter Shaw, a splendid ecologist, in relation to active / non-active Psilocybes. Pluteus has previously published with Peter but is not in close contact with him and wonders, not having read Peter's recent articles, if Peter is considering this issue from a phylogenetic perspective. As Pluteus has banged on about here before, Moncalvo, et al. (2002) showed that the genus Psilocybe is polyphyletic, being made up of two relatively unrelated lineages, one of which (containing the type species P. montana) produces non-active fruitbodies, with the other producing mostly active fruitbodies (which leads to ironic nomenclatural consequences).

Finally, as a colleague of Pluteus' also working in evolutionary mycology, we have both noted with distaste MJshroomer's comments on this thread along the lines of "Those who work on the DNA of the mushrooms are not into mycology, they are into DNA. Molecular science has no interest in mycology as a whole. Only in the classification of it."

MJshroomer, you might have more accurately written "morphological features" instead of "DNA" or "molecular science". Seriously, your comments show an outstanding ignorance of the role of DNA analysis in illuminating all kinds of issues in mycology, from developmental processes, to community interactions, to dispersal, to the evolution of different chemical traits... the list is as limitless as the biology of these fungi is fascinating. MJ, you have somehow managed to overlook a vast body of literature, from Hibbett to Vilgalys to Bruns, that speaks for the consummate passion of molecular mycologists for truly knowing their study group: the fungi. We begin to think that perhaps you are the one with the limited outlook, the one who sees "mycology" purely in terms of how people can identify Psilocybes in the field, and the one who even within this very narrow context is resisting new and powerful ways to understand the relationships between the organisms you study. And all because morphological features remain paramount in the field! But, after all, we molecular scientists are only too happy to include morphological information in our studies, and, in fact, to use DNA to specifically address questions about morphology; whereas you seem closed to this approach. Really, it could be reasonably said that we are more interested in morphology than you are, in the sense that we want to get to the bottom of how morphological traits evolve and are specified - and the fact that this will provide empirical measures of the reliability of different morphological traits in indicating natural classifications is rather secondary to its potential for uncovering the *adaptive* role of these features - something you do not concern yourself with at all. So how is it exactly, then, that you are the one taking an interest in mycology as a whole, and we are not? How is it that we are the ones purely taking an interest in classification, and you are not? MJ, when you neglect to consider DNA, you neglect to understand lifeforms at their most fundamental levels. You neglect, in other words, mycology as a whole.

In any case, we find it contemptible that a field mycologist of your stature would spread such misinformation about us. We in no way wish to belittle your contributions to the study of Psilocybe diversity, MJShroomer, but a little perspective-based modesty would suit you better. Please do not tell us what we are or are not "into".

This post concludes communications to this forum from the username 'Pluteus' for the forseeable future. I will let various of you know the fate of Pluteus, when his fate becomes clear.

Bestest.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: pluteus]
    #6059765 - 09/14/06 05:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

It is fantastic and concerning to hear from Pluteus's friend. Good because I havent heard a word from him for quite a while for now obvious reasons.
Sad because its terrible to hear of the situation he is in and I sincerly hope it all works out well for him.

And perspective-based modesty for MJ would be ideal. Rather than posting complaining that moderators here not deferring to his website exclusively to assist in the identification of mushrooms, or making blanketly ignorant statements, or advertising magazines because they refer to him maybe he should take the time to listen rather than just typing.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Posts: 6,379
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Re: U.K cyanescens indigenous or import? [Re: mjshroomer]
    #6059768 - 09/14/06 05:58 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

And it is refreshing to hear from actual studies and science that is demonstrating the truths of mycological realities, rather than relying on the opinions of others where there is no actual founding basis other than just that - opinion.


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