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 ZippoZ
Knomadic
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
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 Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote 
#6051999 - 09/11/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would like to hear shroomtes voices on this. what do you believe and to what degree.
I personally tend to believe that the buildings were detonated through a controled demolition after the planes hit them, and that some elements of the government did know what was happening and allowed it to go on.
What do you believe?
for some reason i cant add a poll
pappy make it better will you
??????????????????????
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PEACE
 zippoz
"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"
"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
Edited by zippoz (09/11/06 11:35 PM)
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albino_shroom
you say early, Isay already
Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 461
Loc: everywhere but here
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052016 - 09/11/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't believe that the government was behind it like that but I do believe that they didn't do all they could to stop it.
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"If it wasn't for my white guilt, I'd make you cry."
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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 Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052017 - 09/11/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I can't vote because there is no poll, let alone a STAL option...
I think it's a conspiracy...
Your poll-less thread, I mean...
Reptilloids...
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ZippoZ
Knomadic
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6052035 - 09/11/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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damnit...
i will modify it
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PEACE
zippoz
"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"
"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052040 - 09/11/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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See sig 
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OneMoreRobot3021
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,026
Loc: the sky
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052047 - 09/11/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zippoz said:
I personally tend to believe that the buildings were detonated through a controled demolition after the planes hit them,
Quote:
and that some elements of the government did know what was happening and allowed it to go on.
What do you believe?
The second half is more believable. I prefer though to think that the whole thing, as Worth says in Cube, "a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan."
The left hand doesn't speak to the right. Look up New Yorker archives and find an article about the FBI agent who was on the cusp of putting all the pieces together but the CIA wouldn't give him the info he needed, which would have led to the arrest of the hijackers while they were in the U.S.
You think terrorism is some sort of fairy tale the government uses to play games with our heads? People want to kill you.
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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DNKYD
Turtle!
Registered: 09/23/04
Posts: 12,326
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052064 - 09/11/06 11:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's no secret the CIA trained and funded the mujahadeen during the Cold War to disrupt Russia. That later led to Osama's rise to power with the al-Qaeda. The CIA refers to situations such as 9/11 as "blowback".
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ZippoZ
Knomadic
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#6052071 - 09/11/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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okay OMR 2 questions for you
1) has the united states government ever used a "false Flag" operation and attacked its own people in order to justify entering a war
2) do you know how hot jet fuel burns? do you know how much molten metal was found at the WTC sites days after the attack?
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PEACE
zippoz
"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"
"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
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 SerratedFrond
Pinning
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 131
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
#6052077 - 09/11/06 11:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Self inflicted wound ya'll.
Im so convinced that I was handing out copies of "loose change" outisde of the premire of that movie "United 93".
I suggest you order some copies for yourself!
http://www.loosechange911.com/
http://911research.wtc7.net/
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Genesis 1:29
AsalamAlakum ~ SF
Edited by SerratedFrond (09/11/06 11:45 PM)
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: SerratedFrond]
#6052166 - 09/12/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SerratedFrond said:
Self inflicted wound ya'll.
Im so convinced that I was handing out copies of "loose change" outisde of the premire of that movie "United 93".
I suggest you order some copies for yourself!
http://www.loosechange911.com/
http://911research.wtc7.net/
I have reason to make the claim that elements of the U.S. government are criminally involved in hijacking the republic, its citizens, its population, the people, us, to create a totalitarian state.
This is what concerns me.
Whether these ruling powers allowed a foreign body to attack America or whether the ruling powers planned, scripted, and carried out this attack themselves, is both wrong and betraying. All signs do point to the latter, but all in all the present is more important than the past.
It would be very beneficial to our future if we could discover a way to present the evidence in concrete form through a third-party or some other judicial establishment. A change in power in the near future could save potential thousands of life and hopefully allow us a more peaceful life domestically.
Basically what i am trying to say is that there is no denying that we are on a dangerous course, life is not fun nowadays. If we can accept this, realize this, wake up to this, illuminate ourselves, and act on this awakening then we can begin communicating with another more efficiently with a clear goal in mind.
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kosmic_charlie
Truckin' in style
Registered: 03/18/01
Posts: 5,203
Loc: Deep Elem
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6052193 - 09/12/06 12:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Goin' where the water tastes like wine.
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6052198 - 09/12/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Capliberty:
"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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doctor_gonzo
Go fuckyourselves SanDiego...
Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 398
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052199 - 09/12/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
zippoz said:
I personally tend to believe that the buildings were detonated through a controled demolition after the planes hit them, and that some elements of the government did know what was happening and allowed it to go on.
Jesus god! You must be completly twisted on high doses methamphetamine and speed to be that paranoid. It was merely a hellish retaliation to an ongoing hate between The U.S. and the Jihad. As far as there being any chance of stopping this disaster before it occurred is up for speculation and is fairly irrelevant now. To place blame on our lack of preparation is one thing, but to actually think our government, polluted as it may be, actually took part in this mess is absurd.
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"You're a fully grown man! Of course you don't wanna
hold her hand, you wanna dick her!" -Grace Slick's
response to The Beatles' "I Wanna Hold Your Hand".
  -This pic thanks to aNeway2sayHooray
Edited by doctor_gonzo (09/12/06 12:36 AM)
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Toad_Stool
Sloth Nation
Registered: 07/03/02
Posts: 7,462
Loc: California
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052207 - 09/12/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hahaha
haha
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There's nothing more I'd rather do, than the drug I call you
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THE KRAT BARON
one-eyed willie
Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 42,409
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Toad_Stool]
#6052209 - 09/12/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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poll...
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m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
#6052219 - 09/12/06 12:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Marilyn Monroe was killed by a barbiturate enema administered by Peter Lawford and Robert Kennedy...
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THE KRAT BARON
one-eyed willie
Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 42,409
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6052224 - 09/12/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I almost spit beer on my monitor while reading that.
Who's to say DiMaggio didn't do it in a fit of passionate rage while under the influence of a handle of whiskey, huh?? 
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m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
#6052233 - 09/12/06 01:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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There's actually been whole books written about that theory, and a dateline NBC special... 
Myself, I think it was Arthur Miller. He could never get over her taunting him that his friend Elia Kazan was "better in the sack." This, and the fact, that Kazan named names during the McCarthy hearings was more than the sensitive playwright could handle, and he just snapped...
However, your DiMaggio theory also holds promise. It is well known, now, that he beat her like a red-headed stepchild...
Here's another chestnut for you: Carol Wayne was killed by Johnny Carson...
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052234 - 09/12/06 01:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14727720/
These polls don't mean much but it's still kind of surreal to see the results on mainstream news
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052237 - 09/12/06 01:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I swear the next credulous turniphead who urges me to watch that appalling collection of paranoid gibberish -- "Loose Change" -- will get a major smackdown.
Although there are literally dozens of sites which have done a superb job of debunking that steaming pile of bovine excrement (some of them almost frame by frame), this one is succinct and somewhat amusing at the same time. When you have done reading the first page, be sure to click the link at the bottom of the page -- "The other side says..."
... because the second part is even better than the first.
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052238 - 09/12/06 01:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I swear the next credulous turniphead who urges me to watch that appalling collection of paranoid gibberish -- "Loose Change" -- will get a major smackdown.
Although there are literally dozens of sites which have done a superb job of debunking that steaming pile of bovine excrement (some of them almost frame by frame), this one is succinct and somewhat amusing at the same time. When you have done reading the first page, be sure to click the link at the bottom of the page -- "The other side says..."
... because the second part is even beter than the first.
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html
Phred
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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 Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052239 - 09/12/06 01:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Zippos, sorry I didn't see your edit about having trouble getting the poll edited in. Mattz got one going though, and it's neck and neck!
What's even more interesting is that STAL is really trailing in the poll -- I guess people really care about this issue; I didn't even vote STAL this time...
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6052241 - 09/12/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Debunk this [url=&q=terrorstorm&hl=en]TerrorStorm[/url]
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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 Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6052243 - 09/12/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
buckwheat said:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14727720/
These polls don't mean much but it's still kind of surreal to see the results on mainstream news
Extremely Surreal!
I guess it lends credence to that old expression, "I know it's true, because I saw it on TV."
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6052247 - 09/12/06 01:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol it's not easy to debunk alex, he's a true expert in his field.
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ZippoZ
Knomadic
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6052252 - 09/12/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I never advocated :loose change, and perosnally think that it is quite ridiculous in more than a few ways.
Regardless
2 very important facts to consider are these
The time that it took the towers to fall : 10 seconds. free fall time would have been 9.2 seconds. a ibt too fast for anything other than a controlled demolotion
The amount of molten steel found at the sites days after the attacks
And the collapse of WTC 7
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PEACE
zippoz
"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"
"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6052259 - 09/12/06 01:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
lol it's not easy to debunk alex, he's a true expert in his field.
I'm with Webster Tarpley he sticks with to the more important topics. Alex can be all over the place but he's still way better than Loose change it's just poorly done. I have no idea why Alex promotes it.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052266 - 09/12/06 01:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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plus these towers were architected to withstand fire and even plane crashes, these factors were taken into consideration during construction.
there's no way a fire alone could have done this, no way at all.
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mungojerry
free as a bird
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6052276 - 09/12/06 01:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052280 - 09/12/06 01:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I never advocated :loose change, and perosnally think that it is quite ridiculous in more than a few ways.
I mentioned Loose change because of course it came up almost instantly in the thread -- not mentioned by you personally, I realize -- and because your statement, "I personally tend to believe that the buildings were detonated through a controlled demolition after the planes hit them," is basically the whole thrust of the Loose Change moonbats.
As for your two very important "facts", one of them is not a fact at all -- the towers took a lot longer than 10 seconds to collapse.
The second "fact" is not a confirmed fact either. There was for sure a big puddle of molten something at the site. No one has demonstrated that something was steel.
Since you believe in the "controlled demolition" theory, you really should click the link I provided and read it. Skip the first part if you wish, but don't miss the second.
Phred
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6052285 - 09/12/06 01:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't know. There is some weird stuff going on out there. I know this because I once spent six-months trapped between frame #312 and frame #313 of the Zapruder film...
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: mungojerry]
#6052292 - 09/12/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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That freedomunderground piece of crap is just as bad as Loose Change. I suggest you also read through the link I provided. Pay particular attention to the first page.
Unless you provided the link for humorous purposes and your claim of "TRUTH!!!!!!" was meant sarcastically, in which case it's nice to see someone who recognizes bullshit when they see it.
Phred
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mungojerry
free as a bird
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6052301 - 09/12/06 01:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Im glad u caught it
Honestly Im somewhere in between
basically not sure
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mungojerry
free as a bird
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: mungojerry]
#6052303 - 09/12/06 01:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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whys it caca?
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Stein
Stranger
Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 35,129
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6052305 - 09/12/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm one of the very few who think 9/11 didn't happen at all. I believe the whole thing was done in a giant studio and that New York is just some fake state that everyone hears about but doesn't really exist. 
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052310 - 09/12/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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This just in...
Poll Results to date:
7 yes
5 no
1 stal
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mungojerry
free as a bird
Registered: 02/25/06
Posts: 3,598
Loc: Nappy Dub
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6052326 - 09/12/06 01:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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phred cool hand and cool link
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052344 - 09/12/06 02:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I personally tend to believe that the buildings were detonated through a controled demolition
From Phred's link:
First, picture the demolitions teams wiring up the World Trade Center towers with explosives prior to the attack. Obviously you couldn't do it during business hours, since it'd be kind of hard to explain to the 100,000 people who worked at or visited the WTC towers on any given day why you had a huge chunk of wall torn out and were wiring up a bomb on the steel beams there.
I mean, keep in mind, I don't know how big of a job that would be (no one has ever demolished a building that size before) but a building just half the size of one WTC tower took 4,000 separate charges to bring down. Four thousand.
That job took seven months of prep work... and they had the run of an abandoned building, without having to hide their work from 100,000 people every day. Our demolition crew, on the other hand, can work only at night and has to spend the last bit of every shift carefully repairing the wall and hiding any evidence of charges or detonators as not to be discovered during the day.
Huge teams of demolitions experts, who had no problem wiring a building full of innocent New Yorkers to explode, hired in secret, worked every night for what had to be a year (and that's only if they had a big enough crew) placing maybe 10,000 separate charges in each tower and another few thousand in WTC 7 (the smaller WTC tower that also collapsed, later in the day on 9/11).
And nobody notices. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Spooge
The Nutter
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 5,189
Loc: Ice patches that last for...
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052423 - 09/12/06 03:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think there are conspiracy elements to it all.
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ZippoZ
Knomadic
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Spooge]
#6052425 - 09/12/06 03:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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it just aint right 
it just aint right.....
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PEACE
zippoz
"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"
"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
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bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052440 - 09/12/06 04:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If it wasn't an inside job, it sure was convenient.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,330
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052497 - 09/12/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The twin towers weren't taken down, but Building 7 was, presumably to safeguard strategic documents.
Elements in the US Gov't were aware that 9/11 was going to happen and used this knowledge to their advantage.
This is how I see it.
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Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here
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Simisu
taken by gravity
Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 5,435
Loc: Israeli in 
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Asante]
#6052524 - 09/12/06 06:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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everybody knows that the US GOV knew about it!
all they really wanted to do was clear some space for the undergrownd trains... for the future of manhaten!
that's all there was to it. trains!
oh, and the war of course... that dip shit president of yours was playing "wag the dog" with ya'll
amazing how he got realected huh?
i don't know about you lot but i was awe struck when those buildings fell like they did... it seemed most unnatrual to me... i was pretty sure that if they some how did fall it wouldn't have been that "clean"!
so yeah personally i kinda belive all i wrote up there and yet... it's all crap!
i've no idea! just a VERY BAD FEELING about the whole shabang 
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   Shr mery
Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth
 Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum
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speeddealer
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052531 - 09/12/06 07:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have never seen more paranoid people in one place....Okay my last coke party reminded me of this thread.
Either our government is completely inept, mishandling and bungling every challenge thrown at them....
OR
They are one of the most lurid examples of totalitarian planning and control that had managed to pull off one of the most well-orcestrated conspiracies of all time. I mean they couldn't cover up Katrina, c'mon guys---do you really think this could happen without one SHRED of actual, physical, evidence? Just cuz you tell lies, don't make them true. IMAGINE that they could fell those buildings and have that many people complicit, and not...one...shred of ACTUAL evidence...would come to the fore?
Which is it, lefties?
Inept bureacracy or perfect planning?
(Also had to add...my avatar? Just to piss of the majority here. We have several guys who's avatars contain swastikas and I am getting all the hate mail...you know what, hippie, I am keeping it...eatadickup)
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect)."
-Samuel Langhorne Clemens-Notebook, 1904
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Papaver
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Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: speeddealer]
#6052676 - 09/12/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Current Poll Results...
16 yes
9 no
3 stal
It looks like the governemtn did it. Polls don't lie. That's why they use then on the news.
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Scratcher
Stranger
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: speeddealer]
#6052796 - 09/12/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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When buildings that were desgined to withstand the impact of an airplane DON'T withstand the impact of an airplane and, in turn, cause the deaths of thousands of people, wouldn't it be reasonable to think that there should be an examination of the steel structure that failed so miserably? If the US gov was not involved in 9/11, every last piece of steel from those buildings would be in a hanger somewhere being studied with a fucking microscope. Instead, all of it was shipped away for recycling while everyone was still in too much of a state of shock to bother questioning why? So that's my question; WHY? Why was it shipped away? Why was it not examined? Who made, and enforced this decision? This is one of the biggest red flags for me. The biggest fucking crime scene in the history of the world and the evidence is loading onto trucks and destroyed. Those who believe the gov had no part in this, please shed some light on this so I can understand.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052832 - 09/12/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What about building 7? Headquarters of the CIA? Fell the same day as the Trade centers but later on that day. Claims of several small fires in the pretty much vacant building were reported. Then the owner says we had to "pull" it. Now in demolition terms "pull" means to take down. How could a few small fires in a concrete and steal building force the owner to pull it? How can the owner "pull" a building anyway?
How come we only had 3 planes protecting the united states? We sent the rest off to fight "mock" battles. This caused mass confusion at the time when the planes were flying. The pilots asked to pursue the planes but the commander told them to stand down, there by letting them go on to kill thousands.
How did we get started in WW2? Did someone say Pearl Harbor? How did that happen? We let it.
now i am not saying its the government. I am saying it could be small fractions within the government, bent on wars and power.....
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scrname
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Scratcher]
#6052868 - 09/12/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ok to all the people that think that it was a controlled demolition. I am not arguing if the government knew about it or anything but just the fact that the WTC collapsed because of the fire and plane crash. First off it was not hot enough to melt steel, but at 1100 F steel looses 50% of its strength. Now the building is made of steel and concrete. Concrete is also an insulator so the heat that is in the building stays in the building and gets a lot hotter then say if a wood house burns. So now the building which is on fire and has lost 50% of its structural strength and plus it was hit by a 757 which is a big plane. Now tell me any building that can survive that kind of damage and still stand.
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theophage
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#6052869 - 09/12/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: theophage]
#6052879 - 09/12/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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loose change is a bunch of crap.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
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Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: theophage]
#6052892 - 09/12/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think the 911-Truth Movement is funded by the CIA to divert the population's attention from what's really going on. Similar to the government's attempts to discredit UFO's by funding ridiculous theories to make all theories guilty of foolishness by association. Darn tricky these government types. It's all smoke and mirrors. Juts like when Satan planted the dinosaur bones to make us believe in evolution...
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6052909 - 09/12/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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They also like using scape goats and pattsies. They like to find village idiots to blame. They like to get a group of people together and talk about how they wanna change the world. Then the one guy thats in the gov or what not says hey i got the cash and the tools, You guys wanna make it? Then oh damn that dumb ass  did it!!!!!!!
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Papaver
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Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#6052918 - 09/12/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Tru Dat...
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Vvellum
Stranger
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Posts: 10,920
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#6052925 - 09/12/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think September 11th 2001 was planned and executed by Muslim extremists by overlooked and possibly allowed to happen by rouge elements of opportunists found in our government and the private sector.
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6052927 - 09/12/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think some knew what was planned
Those that knew had motivations for not acting
They felt they could gain more in the long run from the after effect than the immediate gratification of a bust
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6052938 - 09/12/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Papaver said:
I think the 911-Truth Movement is funded by the CIA to divert the population's attention from what's really going on. Similar to the government's attempts to discredit UFO's by funding ridiculous theories to make all theories guilty of foolishness by association. Darn tricky these government types. It's all smoke and mirrors. Juts like when Satan planted the dinosaur bones to make us believe in evolution...
Alex Jones IS a shady character. 
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#6052964 - 09/12/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Frankly, I wouldn't trust most people in government as far as I could throw them -- especially this current pack of rabid ideologues...
I think Roger Waters -- my favorite poet of dysfunctional of contemporaneity -- said it best, in his song, "Powers That Be."
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that I personally buy into every fantastic theory that comes around. I've cut myself on Occam's razor before, but that's why I always have a styptic pencil handy... 
Powers That Be
Roger Waters
The powers that be
They like a tough game
No rules
Some you win
Some you lose
Competition's good for you
They're dying to be free
They're the powers that be
They like a bomb proof cadillac
Air conditioned
Gold taps
Back seat gun rack
Platinum hub caps
They pick horses for courses
They're the market forces
(background : Nice car Jack)
They like order
Make-up
Lime light power
Game shows
Rodeos
Star wars
TV
They're the powers that be
If you see them come
You better run
Run
You better run on home
Sisters of mercy better join your brothers
Put a stop to the soap opera right now
They say the toothless get ruthless
You better run on home
You better run
Run
You better run on home
The powers that be
They like treats
Tricks
Carrots
And sticks
They like fear and loathing
They like sheep's clothing
And blacked-out vans
Blacked-out vans
Contingency plans
They like death or glory
They love a good story
They love a good story
Sisters of mercy better join with your brothers
Put a stop to the soap opera state
They say the toothless get ruthless
Run home before its too late
You better run
Run
You better run on home
You better run
[Billy:] "Goodnight, Jim."
[Jim:] "Goodnight, Billy."
[Uncle David's Great Dane:] "Woof, woof, woof!"
[Paraquat Kelly:] "Bull heads, three red snapper, one pink snapper
And your Pacific coastal trench hosemonster fish."
[Cynthia Fox:] "Ohhh!
At Sky David's juke joint of joy reports
Forty under the console giggle stick ling cod
Twenty-three purple perches
Four sledgehammerhead sharks
And what a surprise
Eightyfour crabs, and no red snappers."
[Paraquat Kelly:] "Hey, and that'll do for the triumphant return
Of the fish report with a beat."
[Jim:] "We think of it as mainstreet
But to the rest of the country
It's Sunset Strip
You're listening to KAOS in Los Angeles."
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SerratedFrond
Pinning
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6053834 - 09/12/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
I swear the next credulous turniphead who urges me to watch that appalling collection of paranoid gibberish -- "Loose Change" -- will get a major smackdown.
Although there are literally dozens of sites which have done a superb job of debunking that steaming pile of bovine excrement (some of them almost frame by frame), this one is succinct and somewhat amusing at the same time. When you have done reading the first page, be sure to click the link at the bottom of the page -- "The other side says..."
... because the second part is even beter than the first.
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html
Phred
Damn . . I feel used and abused. Like I was sexually assaulted in a dark alleyway or something . . .
I wasnt entirely impressed with the link you posted, but then I found my way to this video:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6596630292015140276&hl=en-CA
I spent most of my morning and afternoon viewing it, its listed news reports, and similar websites. (i.e. loloosechange.com)
I must say that I was wrong, and apologize for spewing "loose change" around.
After I finished watching "Loose Change" for the first time (the original edition a couple years ago), I was a complete skeptic. I am always wary when people throw "if-then" statements at me like popcorn, and I too questioned Avery's lack of bibliography.
However, I did alot of research, as I dont take things at face value, and usually dont go for the conspiracy theory thing. I even busted out my chemistry text books from college and started checking all of Avery's calculations on melting points and combustion temperatures. Essentially I convinced myself that this many "Coincidences" could not be as such. That even if I thought some of what was contained in the "documentary" could be easily explained, all of it together prooved something.
Unfortunatly, when I was doing my research, there werent these websites that Phred has led me to. Obviously these people have DONE the depth research that I failed to do.
Basically even though I did not trust the makers of "loose change" as I researched for myself, I should have trusted them even less. I will admit I made some concessions to believe certain things they said at face value. Now I know that alot of it is just outright NOT TRUE! Not confused, or misread, or underresearched (although these might be the case as well) but not true . . . damn . .
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Genesis 1:29
AsalamAlakum ~ SF
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: SerratedFrond]
#6053877 - 09/12/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Personally, I think conspiracy theories are the New God!™ People cling to them because it helps make order out of chaos; explanations the inexplicable; and provides warmth in an otherwise cold universe...
However, that being said, one could take William Gibson's view on religions and easily apply it to conspiracy theories...
"I think of religions as franchise operations. Like chicken franchise operations. But that doesn't mean there's no chicken, right?"
--William Gibson
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6053935 - 09/12/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thats why i just do what i do. Stay away from trouble and live life.
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djtetsu
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#6054068 - 09/12/06 04:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's really scary how many people think it's an inside job. If you knew how hard it is to keep a secret like that you would think otherwise. Maybe you guys aren't old enough to remember the Oliver North hearings or didn't learn about Watergate or countless other blunders that go exposed.
Simply put, our government is not that well organized, and to an extent, not that smooth. They are blundering Iraq. Bush's polls are down. Don't you think if they were that smooth, so slick, so well organized, they are better off attaining other things than to kill 3000 of its own people? For what? Just so it can attack Iraq?? Do you think there are easier ways they could of have accomplished this?? and... just use your imagination for a second.... What are the facial expressions of the subordinates that would listen to an order to kill 3000 of its own citizens??
GIMMMEE A FRIGGING BREAK!
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OneMoreRobot3021
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 61,026
Loc: the sky
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054071 - 09/12/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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Schwip
Never sleeps.
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054091 - 09/12/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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maybe not an inside job
but definitely a huge mistake and or tactical error
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" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: SerratedFrond]
#6054094 - 09/12/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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My hat's off to you, SerratedFrond.
You didn't resort to the standard conspiracy nut reflexive kneejerk defense of "Loose Change", you actively made the effort to seek out more data to check its claims, and found out for yourself those claims don't hold up to even the most casual informed scrutiny.
I agree with you that -- taken at face value in a total informational vacuum -- Loose Change can have an impact. But those who have spent any amount of time following events are not operating in an informational vacuum. And I also agree with you that it is a hell of a lot easier TODAY to find out what a pile of crap it is than it was to do so several years ago.
The problem is (as you discovered for yourself) not only is a lot of Loose Change poorly researched or not researched at all, a significant part of it is pure 100% made-up BULLSHIT. It is such blatant crap it actually makes Fahrenheit 9/11 look factual in comparison, and that is something I would have thought nearly impossible to accomplish.
Again, my congratulations for taking the time to look more closely. If only more folks would do the same.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son
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Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054124 - 09/12/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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djtetsu writes:
Quote:
Simply put, our government is not that well organized, and to an extent, not that smooth.
Exactly. That kind of an operation would be nearly impossible for even a competent organization to pull off. To think the US government with the Bush administration at the helm could handle it is one of the most risible ideas ever expressed on this board.
Phred
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054139 - 09/12/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
djtetsu said:
It's really scary how many people think it's an inside job. If you knew how hard it is to keep a secret like that you would think otherwise. Maybe you guys aren't old enough to remember the Oliver North hearings or didn't learn about Watergate or countless other blunders that go exposed.
Simply put, our government is not that well organized, and to an extent, not that smooth. They are blundering Iraq. Bush's polls are down. Don't you think if they were that smooth, so slick, so well organized, they are better off attaining other things than to kill 3000 of its own people? For what? Just so it can attack Iraq?? Do you think there are easier ways they could of have accomplished this?? and... just use your imagination for a second.... What are the facial expressions of the subordinates that would listen to an order to kill 3000 of its own citizens??
GIMMMEE A FRIGGING BREAK!
How did Hitler get his soldiers to kill Jews? Governments have had no problem killing it's own people. It has happened over and over again why are we so different? I posted a link to Terror Storm earlier in this thread it deals with the same topics.
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speeddealer
Stranger
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6054237 - 09/12/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So, quick question to all you guys that said that the government did it, had knowledge aforethought and ignored it, or compelled evil muslims to do it...
WHY? Cheap oil? (LOVING all this cheap oil) Hegemeonic control of Halliburton, Coca Cola, or Walmart? Selling more high fructose corn syrup through ADM? The religious right? Anti-Islam? Making money through the IMF or World Bank? Or so Karl Rove could make more money on stocks? Just curious as what the motive behind this would be and who benefits from killing American civilians? All murder has a motive and I think one is sorely lacking.
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SerratedFrond
Pinning
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6054303 - 09/12/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
buckwheat said:
How did Hitler get his soldiers to kill Jews? Governments have had no problem killing it's own people. It has happened over and over again why are we so different? I posted a link to Terror Storm earlier in this thread it deals with the same topics.
Thats not really the same . . .
Hitler rose to power in a country in the midst of economical and social ruin. He made the jews the scapegoat, a common enemy.
They were in effect not "their own people"
If his years of propoganda wasnt enough to "convince" his soldiers, the threat of death and seizure of all their property and arrest of their family if they didnt comply with his will certainly was.
--------------------
Genesis 1:29
AsalamAlakum ~ SF
Edited by SerratedFrond (09/12/06 05:20 PM)
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djtetsu
Stranger
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6054364 - 09/12/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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ok, granted they can get them to kill its civilians. What I was trying to arrouse was an image of... how does a person respond to the idea, "let's blow up both of the world's trade center towers.", if you were Bush, Cheney, or just anyone.
Imagine yourself hearing it. Does it make sense? The first thought that comes into my mind is... can we do it another way? Want a war in Iraq? Let's detnoate a nuke in Iraq and blow up a factory or something, take satelite pics of it, claim they are going nuke, and start a public histeria.... is just one idea.
Again try to look at the whole picture, how hard would it be to keep a a secret like that, and there's a consistency with all of its past blunders that got exposed, and those intents behind them are nothing as big as an intent to blowing up its own citizens. The difficulty of this and its cost IF FOUND should deter anyone from trying it, and they would be able to find an alternative.
They couldn't do it, and wouldn't want to do it.
But you're right governments have no problem killing its own people. We are no different. Just like them, it's a game for resources. Wars never stopped.
But I'm sorry 9/11 was real. The families that lost loved ones, they really lost it to terrorists.
Perhaps for some psychologically this is hard to take, and maybe there's some that are predesposed to believe in this to avoid facing that fact that we still have those terrorists running lose, so we need to point a finger at someone new. It seems to me it's getting bigger after a few years have passed, and I think it's because we are finally now ready to EITHER make it a memory and make it part of history... OR a reason for new anger. Once this anger starts rolling, I think... it's hard to make a U-turn.
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EndlessNameless
Stranger
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Loc: Valley of the Sun
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6054371 - 09/12/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What's a 9/11?
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: speeddealer]
#6054378 - 09/12/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
speeddealer said:
So, quick question to all you guys that said that the government did it, had knowledge aforethought and ignored it, or compelled evil muslims to do it...
WHY? Cheap oil? (LOVING all this cheap oil) Hegemeonic control of Halliburton, Coca Cola, or Walmart? Selling more high fructose corn syrup through ADM? The religious right? Anti-Islam? Making money through the IMF or World Bank? Or so Karl Rove could make more money on stocks? Just curious as what the motive behind this would be and who benefits from killing American civilians? All murder has a motive and I think one is sorely lacking.
All of the above. Defense Contracts,Oil,Power,money power,One world government. Larry Silverstein for example took out terrorist insurance on the towers weeks before 911 and got billions.A german data recovery company Convar found evidence of CIA insider trading from damaged hard drives.Money for low level pawns, More power for the shadow government for their One World government. And look at my sig for proof of shadow government straight from his mouth director of the CFR at one time and the only man to have ever attend all Bilderberg meetings.
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djtetsu
Stranger
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 40
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: speeddealer]
#6054409 - 09/12/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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OK I feel stupid now! I was thinking they did it so they would have a reason to attack Iraq! But they didn't plant any Iraq guys on the plane!
So....hmmm .... why did they do this? To go after Osama bin laden? Great idea... no, and no because he's still at large.
So I'm also interested as speeddealer, why ?
Quote:
speeddealer said:
So, quick question to all you guys that said that the government did it, had knowledge aforethought and ignored it, or compelled evil muslims to do it...
WHY? Cheap oil? (LOVING all this cheap oil) Hegemeonic control of Halliburton, Coca Cola, or Walmart? Selling more high fructose corn syrup through ADM? The religious right? Anti-Islam? Making money through the IMF or World Bank? Or so Karl Rove could make more money on stocks? Just curious as what the motive behind this would be and who benefits from killing American civilians? All murder has a motive and I think one is sorely lacking.
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djtetsu
Stranger
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 40
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054420 - 09/12/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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ok sorry you beat me to posting.
Ok, One World Government... That's my que to get the heck out of this debate.
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Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054434 - 09/12/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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not that buy into it, but if no one was around to scutanize shit like this (the so-called conspiracy nuts, if you will) then who would?
ignorance makes people blind
also easy to take advantage of.
do you think the patriot act is a good thing?
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" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054444 - 09/12/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
djtetsu said:
ok sorry you beat me to posting.
Ok, One World Government... That's my que to get the heck out of this debate.
Straight from his mouth! What is he crazy now too? 
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Clean
the lense
Registered: 05/11/03
Posts: 2,374
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: djtetsu]
#6054445 - 09/12/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
djtetsu said:
It's really scary how many people think it's an inside job. If you knew how hard it is to keep a secret like that you would think otherwise. Maybe you guys aren't old enough to remember the Oliver North hearings or didn't learn about Watergate or countless other blunders that go exposed.
Simply put, our government is not that well organized, and to an extent, not that smooth. They are blundering Iraq. Bush's polls are down. Don't you think if they were that smooth, so slick, so well organized, they are better off attaining other things than to kill 3000 of its own people? For what? Just so it can attack Iraq?? Do you think there are easier ways they could of have accomplished this?? and... just use your imagination for a second.... What are the facial expressions of the subordinates that would listen to an order to kill 3000 of its own citizens??
GIMMMEE A FRIGGING BREAK!
Sure they're blundering in Iraq, if the goal is to stabilize the country.
But if the goal is to rape the country and make a huge profit from American taxpayers, they're doing a splendid job.
Bush tells us the goal is to stabilize the country.
He, and his top advisors and officials also told us Saddam was one finger twitch away from nuking us if we didn't go and slap the button out of his hand.
Turns out that was a huge lie. So why should we believe them when they say the goal is to stabilize Iraq?
Why should we take anything this administration says at face value?
Seems like a lot of people are confused about what "the goal" is. "How can the government be so incompetent?", we wonder.
I refuse to just throw my arms up and say "it's a mystery"..
I must consider that "the goal" is, among other things, to slowly demote the U.S. from it's position as #1 nation in order to usher in global government / police state, while simultaneously looting the wealth of the enormous middle class. The neocons are extremely competent when it comes to such endeavors, and their labors are beginning to bear fruit. 9/11 was a key elbow in this crooked path to which the PNAC documents serve as a cryptic map.
Despite what the so called neocons in office may say, their actions show that they regard the Constitution as outdated and obsolete, therefore America itself is outdated and obsolete.
They don't really care about America, as we're led to believe. This parade of ego-inflated "fall guys" we know as politics is a clever show directed by those who work to bring about the New World Order---a phrase which George H.W. Bush and others have publicly uttered many times.
Watergate and the Ollie North debacle only represent the tip of the iceberg. The public spectacles are carefully controlled steam valves employed when things are getting too hot on the inside. For example: John Kerry, a Skull & Bones member like the Bushes, headed the commission to investigate CIA drug running during the Contra era. This scandal went so deep that, had the majority of the public realized the truth and acted on it back then, there probably never would have been a reason for this thread to be created. Hours and hours of hearings and testimony later, nothing really happened and the whole thing just fizzled out with no one facing any consequence other than disappearing from the spotlight for a little while.
And the drugs kept flowing.
As you probably know, Ollie North now enjoys a part time job as a military analyst for FOX TV news. He played along quite well, took a rough fall for the team, and was rewarded.
I'm reminded of the Valerie Plame case and the media obsession with it. How many hours of people's time were wasted paying attention to this painfully long and drawn out soap opera which is nothing more than an endless series of cliffhangers?
No one's in jail. No one has even been indicted.
You're right, it is tough to keep such enormous secrets, and it never really works. The truth has a way of leaking out. But the leaks are tolerable as long as the majority of the public couldn't care less about what's really going on in the halls of government.
Edited by Clean (09/12/06 06:03 PM)
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capliberty
Stranger
Registered: 04/23/06
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Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Schwip]
#6054465 - 09/12/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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90% sure that 9/11 was definitly Osama's work, maybe a little inside tampering could be possible but I doubt it
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6054516 - 09/12/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
buckwheat said:
How did Hitler get his soldiers to kill Jews? Governments have had no problem killing it's own people. It has happened over and over again why are we so different? I posted a link to Terror Storm earlier in this thread it deals with the same topics.
Whoa whoa!
There's just no comparing 9/11 conspiracy theories and the holocaust.
No one in 1930s Germany was confused about what was going on with the Jews. Large portions of the populace participated in anti-jewish riots, many of Hitler's public speaches let the people know that "Jews were the enemy" and random crimes against Jews were carried out by the population on a regular basis.
As early as 1939 the populace of Nazi Germany knew about "genetic purity programs" (then refering to the killing of the disabled and deformed) and most people, whether they wanted to admit it openly or not, KNEW what was going on. The deaths of the initial 200,000 or so disabled individuals were made public. The Nazi party ran public so-called "pro-euthanasia" campaigns.
The point is, everyone knew what was going on.
The 9/11 conspiracy theories are the exact opposite of this.
They contend that the government not only knowingly and willfully killed its own citizens, but did so in a manner that the majority of the US populace does not know about it.
Somehow they were able to kill all those people in 9/11 and they were able to do it with the utmost secrecy, and without anyone whistleblowing.
I just don't buy it.
These people couldn't even keep Enron under control. Do you have any idea how easy it would be for someone with (supposedly) complete and utter command of the massive military-industrial complex required to carry out a covert 9/11 to have simply kept Enron afloat a little longer?
Or, why didn't they just smuggle a few weapons of mass destruction into Iraq after the invasion? After all, they must command some wing of the military willing to kill a large number of Americans, surely people willing to do that would sneak a single nuclear warhead into Iraq.
As djtetsu initially said: Gimme a break!
There's no way this is true, and believing in the conspiracy just makes you sound foolish.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Clean]
#6054554 - 09/12/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Clean said:
Sure they're blundering in Iraq, if the goal is to stabilize the country.
But if the goal is to rape the country and make a huge profit from American taxpayers, they're doing a splendid job.
I don't think you fully understand the capacity of a party with a majority in government to make money.
Honestly, there's no excuse for this kind of logic. I can't even imagine why you would ever think that this is real. What would be the goal of "raping Iraq"? How would anyone anywhere benefit from that? There's just no reason to it.
Also, a majority part in Government could do any manner of things to make money, they were even lucky enough to have Alan Greenspan step down while in power, giving them the opportunity to replace the key member of the FOMC. From bond issues to fixing interest rates to manipulating currency supply, there are an infinite number of non-violent, downright hard-to-prove ways the "neocons" could have all made oodles more money than they're making off Iraq. After all, if they were truly willing to cause, or at least partially cause, 9/11 surely they wouldn't be above simple embezzlement!
But no, the fact that easy, and obvious, alternatives exist must be ignored in the face of convoluted meandering conspiracy to achieve the same ends through the use of sharks-with-friggin-laser-beams-on-their-heads...
Quote:
Clean said:
Seems like a lot of people are confused about what "the goal" is. "How can the government be so incompetent?", we wonder.
I refuse to just throw my arms up and say "it's a mystery"..
I must consider that "the goal" is, among other things, to slowly demote the U.S. from it's position as #1 nation in order to usher in global government / police state, while simultaneously looting the wealth of the enormous middle class. The neocons are extremely competent when it comes to such endeavors, and their labors are beginning to bear fruit. 9/11 was a key elbow in this crooked path to which the PNAC documents serve as a cryptic map.
Despite what the so called neocons in office may say, their actions show that they regard the Constitution as outdated and obsolete, therefore America itself is outdated and obsolete.
They don't really care about America, as we're led to believe. This parade of ego-inflated "fall guys" we know as politics is a clever show directed by those who work to bring about the New World Order---a phrase which George H.W. Bush and others have publicly uttered many times.
...
You're right, it is tough to keep such enormous secrets, and it never really works. The truth has a way of leaking out. But the leaks are tolerable as long as the majority of the public couldn't care less about what's really going on in the halls of government.
Holy Crap! A non-sensical conspiracy argument followed from the initial ridiculous assumption!
I totally called that one... 
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6054579 - 09/12/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The 9/11 conspiracy theories are the exact opposite of this.
They contend that the government not only knowingly and willfully killed its own citizens, but did so in a manner that the majority of the US populace does not know about it.
I would say that is a mischaracterization of the various theories of conspiracy. Who says the entire federal government of the United States is responsible for orchestrating and executing the attacks on Sept. 11th 2001? Nobody.
A good number, rather, point to rouge elements within government (of the US and other nations possibly) or the private sector that had the means and motive to allow and/or facilitate the attacks by the Muslim extremists.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6054614 - 09/12/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm convinced that the Bush administration had enough actionable evidence to prevent 9/11. Whether they were just ignorant or deliberately allowed it to happen, one can only speculate. However, I'm inclined to believe the latter. As for the idea of them being actively involved vis-a-vis controlled demolition and telling fighter jets to stand down, I keep going back and forth on that idea. I wouldn't put it past them.
I will make one unequivocal statement on the matter: The truth about 9/11 is that we don't know the truth about 9/11.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6054643 - 09/12/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Exactly. That kind of an operation would be nearly impossible for even a competent organization to pull off.
Well Al Queda must be fucking geniuses then, huh?
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6054658 - 09/12/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
buckwheat said:
How did Hitler get his soldiers to kill Jews? Governments have had no problem killing it's own people. It has happened over and over again why are we so different? I posted a link to Terror Storm earlier in this thread it deals with the same topics.
Whoa whoa!
There's just no comparing 9/11 conspiracy theories and the holocaust.
No one in 1930s Germany was confused about what was going on with the Jews. Large portions of the populace participated in anti-jewish riots, many of Hitler's public speaches let the people know that "Jews were the enemy" and random crimes against Jews were carried out by the population on a regular basis.
As early as 1939 the populace of Nazi Germany knew about "genetic purity programs" (then refering to the killing of the disabled and deformed) and most people, whether they wanted to admit it openly or not, KNEW what was going on. The deaths of the initial 200,000 or so disabled individuals were made public. The Nazi party ran public so-called "pro-euthanasia" campaigns.
The point is, everyone knew what was going on.
The 9/11 conspiracy theories are the exact opposite of this.
They contend that the government not only knowingly and willfully killed its own citizens, but did so in a manner that the majority of the US populace does not know about it.
Somehow they were able to kill all those people in 9/11 and they were able to do it with the utmost secrecy, and without anyone whistleblowing.
I just don't buy it.
These people couldn't even keep Enron under control. Do you have any idea how easy it would be for someone with (supposedly) complete and utter command of the massive military-industrial complex required to carry out a covert 9/11 to have simply kept Enron afloat a little longer?
Or, why didn't they just smuggle a few weapons of mass destruction into Iraq after the invasion? After all, they must command some wing of the military willing to kill a large number of Americans, surely people willing to do that would sneak a single nuclear warhead into Iraq.
As djtetsu initially said: Gimme a break!
There's no way this is true, and believing in the conspiracy just makes you sound foolish.
Delta force was once a secret, Operation Jedburgh was a secret. Who is to say there are no other secret ops whether it be in the Military or in the Intelligence community. If we don't know if they exists how can we know what they do to those soldiers,agents?There is also the possibility of mercenaries.With the smoke and mirrors of those Military Drills only a few at the top would know. These top agents would be exposed to a time frame similar to those propagandized Nazi soldiers.
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Irishdrunk
Democracy? We Deliver!!!
Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 24,201
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6054688 - 09/12/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Halliburton paid a group of intelligence specialists to fund 20 arabs and start a war by destroying the world trade centre. They knew it would result in alot of contracts for them. Northrop Grumman was in on it too.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6054689 - 09/12/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Phred said:
Exactly. That kind of an operation would be nearly impossible for even a competent organization to pull off.
Well Al Queda must be fucking geniuses then, huh?
Again with the forgetting about the "secret" aspect.
Al Queda pulled the operation off to get the whole world's attention. If 9/11 was actually an "inside job" then it would have to have been pulled off (in many theories this means not just "looking the other way" but even going so far as to plant charges and launch cruise missiles) then the job was not just:
"Hijack 4 planes, crash them into shit"
but rather:
"Plane and execute an attack against US citizens in complete secrecy, and manage to blame people living in caves in Arghanistan"
The second is a far more complex and difficult to achieve operation.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6054699 - 09/12/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Then of course there's the middle ground of allowing Al Queda to pull it off, while concealing one's own involvement. I don't think very many people are saying that Al Queda wasn't involved. Just that there are a number of strange coincidences that just don't add up.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Schwip]
#6054725 - 09/12/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Schwip said:
not that buy into it, but if no one was around to scutanize shit like this (the so-called conspiracy nuts, if you will) then who would?
ignorance makes people blind
also easy to take advantage of.
do you think the patriot act is a good thing?
Good points!
I very much agree that these so-called "conspiracy nuts" are a good thing, and a sort of checks-and-balances system -- an integral part of a dialectic process to arrive at some sort of "truth," which is usually found hiding in the murky grays of the middle-ground.
I also find conspiracy theories fascinating on many levels; sociological, psychological, mythological, et cetera. There are narratives that get hatched in the backwaters of the internet, which are so dizzyingly byzantine in their complexity that it humbles me as a mere individual human being, and as an artist, I find them quite inspiring on a creative-level...
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6054749 - 09/12/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You're not placing us in the same loonie bin as David Icke are you.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Asante]
#6054795 - 09/12/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Elements in the US Gov't were aware that 9/11 was going to happen and used this knowledge to their advantage.
complicity, it's a crime in the US, quite similar to conspiracy
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6054796 - 09/12/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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LoLZ
No, I'm not even placing "you" with "them," or "me" with "us," for that matter...
I really don't know, but I tend to be skeptical and cautious in such matters...
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6054824 - 09/12/06 07:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I saw a Nova special on PBS where they went through and explained EXACTLY why the buildings collapsed, in a very scientific way. You should check it out.
~adrug
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Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: adrug]
#6054859 - 09/12/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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sounds interesting
by chance have a torrent link?
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" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium 
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Schwip]
#6054865 - 09/12/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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my post from OTD's discussion:
has anyone ever considered that maybe the messages on the blackboxes were pre-recorded and there was either one, two, or no people flying the planes? Tickets obviously could have been purcahsed and never used, and no one would know the difference.
There are plenty of people in our gov't crazy enough to willingly sacrifice their lives for the "betterment"
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channel your inner Larry David
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6054880 - 09/12/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
buckwheat said:
Delta force was once a secret, Operation Jedburgh was a secret. Who is to say there are no other secret ops whether it be in the Military or in the Intelligence community. If we don't know if they exists how can we know what they do to those soldiers,agents?There is also the possibility of mercenaries.With the smoke and mirrors of those Military Drills only a few at the top would know. These top agents would be exposed to a time frame similar to those propagandized Nazi soldiers.
Neither of those are even remotely applicable under many of the current 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Operation Jedburgh was barely a secret. Oh, elements of it might have been secret, like the exact names and locations of the participants, but it was no where near the complete and total secret that would be required for "elements of the US government" to execute the 9/11 attacks.
The Nazis knew full well that the Allies were aiding the resistance fighters. They knew full well of the existence of resistance fighters, and the Allies home populations all knew that their governments were taking action to support resistance fighters in Europe.
This isn't at all comparable to a plan executed in complete secret by "elements of the US government" to purposefully kill close to 3,000 Americans and arrange to have it blamed on radical Islamists.
As for the "Delta Force" example, again, gimme a break. Look at the previous link posted by Diploid. In order to set up a controlled demoltion of some sort (again, I know that not all conspiracy theories suggest that, but let's take it one at a time) it would take over 4,000 charges to destroy each tower, and you would have to install them all in secret, despite the 100,000 people who ordinarily worked in the WTC being present basically every day.
That is VERY different from merely having a military group that you've "secretly trained" and whose name you don't like to give out. Even if we assumed there's somehow, somewhere a force that size that was completely brainwashed (something that has NEVER happened in the history of the US before) they would still somehow have to install over 8,000 charges around the WTC without ANYONE noticing.
That includes ordinary maintenance and security workers who were trained to look for bombs after the previous attacks on the towers.
-
As for the argument "The government knew and purposefully didn't do enough," that's fine, and there's no way to argue against it. It employs the exact same logic as the Intelligent Design argument, because it requires opponents to produce evidence that the proponents of Intelligent Design cannot themselves produce.
If you want to believe it, that's fine, just remember that the goal should then be to ensure the government does more next time, mostly by tearing down bureacracy and such.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: adrug]
#6054889 - 09/12/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
adrug said:
I saw a Nova special on PBS where they went through and explained EXACTLY why the buildings collapsed, in a very scientific way. You should check it out.
~adrug
See, that's the thing: I don't know who to believe concerning the collapse. I'm not an engineer, so I don't really have the expertise to judge such things. However, I do know that if I were president, and got an urgent memo that says "Osama Bin Laden determined to attack inside US," I wouldn't consider it a good opportunity to go on vacation for a couple months.
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Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6054901 - 09/12/06 08:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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maybe it will go down in history as the biggest covert op of all time?
maybe we'll never know, cause people refuse to think for themselves?
maybe it really did just happened and people really cant come to accept it.
maybe none of us will ever know?
i dont know.
but i do know speculation will not take me anywhere, cept in a circle
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" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Schwip]
#6054913 - 09/12/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Schwip: I do not; however here is the special I am referring to if you wish to search for it yourself.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
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Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: adrug]
#6054922 - 09/12/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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thanks
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" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: demiu5]
#6054989 - 09/12/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
demius said:
Tickets obviously could have been purcahsed and never used, and no one would know the difference.
from one of the planes a call was made to a lady here in atlanta, her husband was
talking about the attempt to retake the plane, it's where the government gained
some preliminary intel
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6055056 - 09/12/06 08:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
buckwheat said:
Delta force was once a secret, Operation Jedburgh was a secret. Who is to say there are no other secret ops whether it be in the Military or in the Intelligence community. If we don't know if they exists how can we know what they do to those soldiers,agents?There is also the possibility of mercenaries.With the smoke and mirrors of those Military Drills only a few at the top would know. These top agents would be exposed to a time frame similar to those propagandized Nazi soldiers.
Neither of those are even remotely applicable under many of the current 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Operation Jedburgh was barely a secret. Oh, elements of it might have been secret, like the exact names and locations of the participants, but it was no where near the complete and total secret that would be required for "elements of the US government" to execute the 9/11 attacks.
The Nazis knew full well that the Allies were aiding the resistance fighters. They knew full well of the existence of resistance fighters, and the Allies home populations all knew that their governments were taking action to support resistance fighters in Europe.
This isn't at all comparable to a plan executed in complete secret by "elements of the US government" to purposefully kill close to 3,000 Americans and arrange to have it blamed on radical Islamists.
As for the "Delta Force" example, again, gimme a break. Look at the previous link posted by Diploid. In order to set up a controlled demoltion of some sort (again, I know that not all conspiracy theories suggest that, but let's take it one at a time) it would take over 4,000 charges to destroy each tower, and you would have to install them all in secret, despite the 100,000 people who ordinarily worked in the WTC being present basically every day.
That is VERY different from merely having a military group that you've "secretly trained" and whose name you don't like to give out. Even if we assumed there's somehow, somewhere a force that size that was completely brainwashed (something that has NEVER happened in the history of the US before) they would still somehow have to install over 8,000 charges around the WTC without ANYONE noticing.
That includes ordinary maintenance and security workers who were trained to look for bombs after the previous attacks on the towers.
-
As for the argument "The government knew and purposefully didn't do enough," that's fine, and there's no way to argue against it. It employs the exact same logic as the Intelligent Design argument, because it requires opponents to produce evidence that the proponents of Intelligent Design cannot themselves produce.
If you want to believe it, that's fine, just remember that the goal should then be to ensure the government does more next time, mostly by tearing down bureacracy and such.
I don't know of any explanation of how they might have planted the bombs.4,000 is a stretch but not impossible if that's accurate number. It's not a area i look to. I do know that Bomb sniffing dogs where removed from the towers weeks before.
The Drills and our previous CIA sponsored False Flag operations like Gladio are the smoking guns. 15 drills, the most ever in the US on that very day is too much of a coincidence. There is no debating the past few terrorist attacks have a drill of the same type of attack, on the very same day by some government or private consulting agency on 9/11 and 7/7 and Oklahoma city.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6055099 - 09/12/06 08:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
... However, I do know that if I were president, and got an urgent memo that says "Osama Bin Laden determined to attack inside US," I wouldn't consider it a good opportunity to go on vacation for a couple months.
That doesn't necessarily indicate a conspiracy theory, though. I think it more likely indicates that Bush's management style is a "tad lacking," to say the least...
Example: He went on vacation during hurricane Katrina. The "vacation during a crisis" has been a common motif in his presidency. I don't know if it is a way of trying to project a calm, "all is well" attitude, or what, but it is a re-occurring theme...
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6055122 - 09/12/06 08:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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True, and that's why I conceded the possibility of mere incompetence. However, from what I've heard(and again, it's hard to know what to believe), his administration made an effort early on to make terrorism as low a priority as possible, despite the outgoing Clinton administration's warnings to keep an eye on Bin Laden. Also, while it's certainly believable that Bush is an incompetent moron, it just doesn't fit for other members of his administration like Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, or Donald Rumsfeld, all of whom are members of PNAC(Project for a New American Century). And of course, PNAC put out a document in the mid-90's stating that it would take "a new Pearl Harbor" to implement their neoconservative strategy.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6055234 - 09/12/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, the later part of you paragraph is more disquieting, but I still kinda think it just happened. Sometimes bad stuff just happens...
Speaking of Pearl Harbor, you are aware that there were many people, especially anti-Rosevelt isolationists, who believed many of the same things about the Roosevelt administration and Pearl Harbor. That they knew about it, and could have stopped it, but didn't because they wanted an excuse to go to war.
I'm probably sure we could also find examples of these same kinds of conspiracy theories during the Peloponnesian wars too. Actually, now that I think of it, there were such theories, and some of them are probably now our history -- it just goes to show you, if 2,500 years from now the only record of this time is an Alex Jones tape, then the future's concept of this place in time will be very much different than our concept of it...
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SweetLeaf
"33"
Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 476
Loc: wa
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6055245 - 09/12/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I read all the evidence presented by Loose Change, because personally, I'd rather know both angles of the story before making a decision.
However, I think the quotes they use to support their claims are a little unreliable.
I also know that the steel girders used to support the floors were not sealed with fireproofing material, as they should have been.
There are pictures to prove this. Pictures taking several years before the attacks that called the fireproofing inadequate. And it was.
Without proper fireproofing, the steel girders would easily melt and reek havoc as they melted into the floors below them.
I also know that the collapse of the WTC looked nothing like the collapse of the Kingdome in Seattle, which was done by remote dentonation. Remote detonation that required hundreds of charges timed perfectly to cause a complete implosion.
I was on my boat, 400 yards of the piers in downtown Seattle when the Kingdome went down. There were no similarities.
All in all, I think the notion that the government is behind it is ridiculous. There are some clever points, but if you dig hard enough, anything can look like a conspiracy.
The Pentegon on the other hand..
Ahh who am I kidding, all of you need to set the bong down *joking*
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Ph.dizzle
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6055252 - 09/12/06 09:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Papaver said:
Speaking of Pearl Harbor, you are aware that there were many people, especially anti-Rosevelt isolationists, who believed many of the same things about the Roosevelt administration and Pearl Harbor. That they knew about it, and could have stopped it, but didn't because they wanted an excuse to go to war.
Not only could Roosevelt have likely prevented it, but there is reason to believe that he might have intentionally provoked the Japanese into attacking(they didn't just do it for shits and giggles).
Of course, if you really want a good war-based conspiracy, look at the Spanish-American War.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6055279 - 09/12/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Remember the Maine!™ 
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6055283 - 09/12/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Papaver said:
Remember the Maine!™
I wish more Americans would.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6056670 - 09/13/06 10:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Now that I think about it, war and conspiracy almost go hand-in-hand. The history of war is a history of cynical power grabs disguised by deceptive propaganda and Machiavellian manipulation of the masses. Politicians have always concealed their motives and hidden behind more altruistic ones. I find it a bit naive for people to assume that our own leaders are above such things. Scapegoating and cover-ups are as old as politics itself.
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6056754 - 09/13/06 11:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Some of the questions I had about this event stem back to when I was watching it unfold live.
I remember thinking as those buildings fell: "that does not look right". I realize that doesn't mean anything in the way of proof, but I still think it is relevant.
You people who say "what did the government have to gain"? really drives me nuts. Have you not noticed such things like the patriot act. I mean really what a fucking name for a bill or w/e it is that takes away your civil liberties. They are rubbing your faces in it, naming it "the patriot act", oh the arrogance. But hey, as long as you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear from the Patriot act, LOL.
Also, billions in defense contracts, oil, revenge on Saddam, and a prerequisite to many more wars on "terror".
Another interesting note, the owner of the WTC took out a record setting insurance policy just months before the event, and collected millions in profit.
Also brought up earlier, why was all the wreckage shipped away and recycled, and not studied.
Why did it take over a year for an official investigation to take place.
Why have we not caught OBL yet? I know that the fact we haven't proves nothing, but I will tell you now, we will NEVER catch him, alive that is.
Finally, WTC 7.....why did it fall? It just does not make sense.
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Capliberty:
"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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robbyberto
Water Boy
Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 15,502
Loc: Netherlands 
Last seen: 2 months, 12 days
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6056845 - 09/13/06 11:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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“People say having kids is life changing, well that doesn’t necessarily mean a good thing, does it? I could take one of my legs off. That would change my life.” -Karl Pilkington
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater
Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#6056913 - 09/13/06 11:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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100% Al Qaeda. From every angle - physics, eyewitness, government motivation - there's not anywhere near enough evidence to even rationally flirt with this type of thing. I like some conspiracy theories, but this one is total shit. I think it's getting a lot of attention simply because our generation has never had the chance to crack a good conspiracy theory. It drives me insane that so many Americans are willing to buy into this. It's religion for nerds.
Quote:
theophage said:
I think Maddox said it best... There is no 9/11 conspiracy you morons.
As usual, I agree with Maddox.
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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6057082 - 09/13/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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alpharedecho writes:
Quote:
You people who say "what did the government have to gain"? really drives me nuts. Have you not noticed such things like the patriot act. I mean really what a fucking name for a bill or w/e it is that takes away your civil liberties.
Perhaps you can be the first person out of the hundreds I have asked to tell me just how the "civil liberties" of American citizens have been reduced by the signing into law of the Patriot Act. Seriously, in five years, no one has ever been able to offer me an example. Not even one.
Now, I want SPECIFICS. It won't do to just sputter something like "Are you joking me? Just read the freaking thing, mang!" Nope. Not acceptable. What I want is for you to name for me a few actions that an American Citizen could legally perform prior to the signing of the Patriot Act which American citizens cannot now legally perform after the signing of the Act.
Here's your chance to do something hundreds of others have failed to do. Go for it.
Phred
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Scratcher
Stranger
Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 2,323
Loc: eH
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6057162 - 09/13/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think the Patriot Act was made with the future in mind, not the present. Those in charge know that the global power struggle going on right now isn't going anywhere anytime soon and that the shit is gonna hit the fan (ie. nuclear detonation, national chaos) sooner or later. Then, the evil of this act will be seen as your govt struggles to keep control of you. If nothing happens and everyone makes it through this stage in history alive, great, but they're planning for the worst case scenario.
Edited by Scratcher (09/13/06 02:52 PM)
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6057198 - 09/13/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
I find it a bit naive for people to assume that our own leaders are above such things.
I don't think the Anti-911-Truth-Movement people are saying our leaders are "above such things;" simply that they are too incompetent to pull-it off, based on their own recent track-record...
Also, this Maddox guy makes a good point: I know that if I, personally, were behind a vast and complex conspiracy to kill 3,000 americans, that I would have killed that little "Loose Change" piss-ant just on general principles; well, and for the "shits and giggles" I'd get from watching him die...
And I would have made it look like an accident; perhaps a tragic badger incident, or something to do with trout...
My black vans would have swept him up in the parking lot outside the local Quick-E-Mart, where he buys his slurpees, and spirited him away to the badger-house at the Denver Zoo. The rest would have been history; a below-the-fold obit in the style-section of the Times...
I mean, come one now; some of this stuff is just as ridiculous as all those conspiracies floating around during the Clinton administration about how Bill and Hillary were personally responsible for dozens of covert murders to hush-up people about White-Water... Anybody remember those conspiracies?
I'm not saying that the bush administration and several thousand of their jack-booted lackeys, in concert with an extra-terrestrial dynasty shape-shifting reptoids, didn't personally wire-up the twin towers for demolition, in order to start a war with Iraq and help British Petroleum's profit-picture. I'm just saying that, like with God and UFOs, that I require a little more proof than what I've seen so far. Hence, I'm going to remain agnostic on the issue until that proof comes.
By all means, however, people should continue digging; I think things should be examined from every possible side; the truth is out there...
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Scratcher]
#6057211 - 09/13/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Scratcher writes:
Quote:
Those in charge know that the global power struggle going on right now isn't going anywhere anytime soon and that the shit is gonna hit the fan (ie. nuclear detonation, national chaos) sooner or later. Then, the evil of this act will be seen as your govt struggles to keep control of you.
And just how -- specifically -- does the Patriot Act "control" American citizens? If there isn't a single action you could legally take before the Act was signed which has since been made illegal by the Act, then it is quite obvious that you are no more "controlled" now than you were then. Whatever you could do then, you can still do now.
Phred
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6057238 - 09/13/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
alpharedecho said:
I remember thinking as those buildings fell: "that does not look right". I realize that doesn't mean anything in the way of proof, but I still think it is relevant.
This is funny because when reading the 9/11 conspiracy theories I remember consistantly thinking "this does not sound even remotely correct". I realize that doesn't completely prove the theories are bull, but I still think it's relevant.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Another interesting note, the owner of the WTC took out a record setting insurance policy just months before the event, and collected millions in profit.
An of course, you probably never looked at the lease signed on the WTC. You know the one signed in July of 2001. So, what a coincidence, he decided to take out insurance on the towers immediately after he decided to lease them. Well, that sure as hell proves something.
I mean, I never decide to take out insurance on anything right I after I get it, I usually wait years...
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Also brought up earlier, why was all the wreckage shipped away and recycled, and not studied.
This doesn't make sense by anyone's account. Even the conspiracy theorists point to quotes from individuals at FEMA, NIST, and other agencies who all had substantial opportunities to study the wreckage.
The wreckage would only be maintained for years afterwards if there was some kind of a complete mystery surrounding the event, like in the case of TWA Flight 800. But this wasn't even remotely similar. Everyone watched the planes hit the buildings, everyone watched the buildings catch fire, the pertinent information was gathered, studied, and cleared away.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Why did it take over a year for an official investigation to take place.
Funny you should bring this up, there's a new book out on this topic with the title "Without Precendent: The inside story of the 9/11 commission" it's by Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton.
Anyway, one of their conclusions is that relations with victims families were at least as stalling to the investigation as any part of the government.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Finally, WTC 7.....why did it fall? It just does not make sense.
It doesn't make sense that a building with a 20-story hole torn in its base, that had fire on 6 or more floors, was actively being barraged by falling debris from another building, and that burned for over 6 hours collapsed? (all of this is from the eye-witness decription of fire captain Boyle)
It would only "not make sense" if there were examples of other buildings that underwent similar damage (20-story hole in the base, fire across 6 floors, burned for 6 or more hours). To date, there are simply no examples of this ANYWHERE.
Conspiracy theorists like to point to other buildings that have caught fire, but none of them experience the initial 20-story tall impact, or were weighed down by additional debris falling from above.
Unless evidence is provided of a similar occurence elsewhere, I'm sorry but I see no reason why WTC 7 SHOULD NOT have fallen down.
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Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6057244 - 09/13/06 01:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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everything ive seen(not much) about building 7 never mentioned a big 20 story hole.
why were closer buildings not damaged more?
was building 7 just unlucky?
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" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Phred]
#6057262 - 09/13/06 02:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Why would they cause alarm by arresting people en mass for petty shit outlined in the Patriot act. I admit, I rely on what I have heard from others, and have not actually read the thing. Can I read it? Is that allowed by your Gov't? I will take you up on this phred, when I get home from work in a bout 2 hours.
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Capliberty:
"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6057286 - 09/13/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't think the Anti-911-Truth-Movement people are saying our leaders are "above such things;"
I didn't say they were. I was just making a general point about the way people view their own government vs. other governments.
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6057300 - 09/13/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
I remember thinking as those buildings fell: "that does not look right". I realize that doesn't mean anything in the way of proof, but I still think it is relevant.
This is funny because when reading the 9/11 conspiracy theories I remember consistantly thinking "this does not sound even remotely correct". I realize that doesn't completely prove the theories are bull, but I still think it's relevant.
You're so clever.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Another interesting note, the owner of the WTC took out a record setting insurance policy just months before the event, and collected millions in profit.
An of course, you probably never looked at the lease signed on the WTC. You know the one signed in July of 2001. So, what a coincidence, he decided to take out insurance on the towers immediately after he decided to lease them. Well, that sure as hell proves something.
I mean, I never decide to take out insurance on anything right I after I get it, I usually wait years...
Nice twist job, of course you take out insurance on things right away, but my point was, what a convenient time to lease it, and purchase a RECORD SETTING insurance policy. Then claim it with out making barely any payment on it.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Also brought up earlier, why was all the wreckage shipped away and recycled, and not studied.
This doesn't make sense by anyone's account. Even the conspiracy theorists point to quotes from individuals at FEMA, NIST, and other agencies who all had substantial opportunities to study the wreckage.
The wreckage would only be maintained for years afterwards if there was some kind of a complete mystery surrounding the event, like in the case of TWA Flight 800. But this wasn't even remotely similar. Everyone watched the planes hit the buildings, everyone watched the buildings catch fire, the pertinent information was gathered, studied, and cleared away.
Yeah, that makes sense, let's just assume everything is the way it appears. You're a dictators dream.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Why did it take over a year for an official investigation to take place.
Funny you should bring this up, there's a new book out on this topic with the title "Without Precendent: The inside story of the 9/11 commission" it's by Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton.
Anyway, one of their conclusions is that relations with victims families were at least as stalling to the investigation as any part of the government.
Can you explain this a little better, I don't quite understand what you mean.
Anyway, there is no reason why is should take over 450 days to launch an investigation into the biggest act of terrorism in United States history.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Finally, WTC 7.....why did it fall? It just does not make sense.
It doesn't make sense that a building with a 20-story hole torn in its base, that had fire on 6 or more floors, was actively being barraged by falling debris from another building, and that burned for over 6 hours collapsed? (all of this is from the eye-witness decription of fire captain Boyle)
It would only "not make sense" if there were examples of other buildings that underwent similar damage (20-story hole in the base, fire across 6 floors, burned for 6 or more hours). To date, there are simply no examples of this ANYWHERE.
Conspiracy theorists like to point to other buildings that have caught fire, but none of them experience the initial 20-story tall impact, or were weighed down by additional debris falling from above.
Unless evidence is provided of a similar occurence elsewhere, I'm sorry but I see no reason why WTC 7 SHOULD NOT have fallen down.
Did you watch the way it fell in on itself. I would think that with the problems you described, the building would collapse in the direction of the structural breaches.
Also, Oklahoma city bombing......wouldn't that be a similar example? I'm not sure, and have done no research on it, so if it helps prove your point, so be it. I just thought it should have collapsed too, according to your logic.
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Capliberty:
"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Economist
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Schwip]
#6057310 - 09/13/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Schwip said:
everything ive seen(not much) about building 7 never mentioned a big 20 story hole.
why were closer buildings not damaged more?
was building 7 just unlucky?
The huge hole in building 7 is only visible from the south side of the building (I know the south-side view has been posted a few times on this site, I also know you can find it on this page: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm )
As I stated above, the hole is also mentioned in eyewitness accounts, you can read Fire Captain Boyle's account here http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html
Also, no buildings were "closer" than WTC7 that were not also destroyed. There were some buildings *as close as* WTC7 that did not ultimately collapse, but recieved equivalent amounts of damage. In the first link in the post you can see photos of an enormous hole in the Banker's Trust building, for example.
The big difference was the fire. WTC7 not only had a huge hole ripped in it, it also caught fire on several floors. WTC7 housed a power-generating facility along with huge reserves of diesel (something the Banker's Trust building did not have). The fire caught across many floors, continued to be fueled by the available diesel, and burned for over 6 hours before the building collapse.
So, in many ways WTC 7 was unlucky (having both diesel reserves and catching fire), but it wasn't especially remarkable, as other buildings recieved similar damage from impacting debris.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6057342 - 09/13/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
I don't think the Anti-911-Truth-Movement people are saying our leaders are "above such things;"
I didn't say they were. I was just making a general point about the way people view their own government vs. other governments.
Ok. Fair enough...
I still say, those Canadians are a shifty lot, though. What, with their round bacon and strange money...
There's something that doesn't quite add-up about them. I mean, why Canada? Why not Albania? When you look at it that way, it kinda makes you think, doesn't it?
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6057352 - 09/13/06 02:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If Canada is a sovereign nation, then why do they have another nation's monarch on their money?
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6057371 - 09/13/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Exactly!
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Economist
in training
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6057404 - 09/13/06 02:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Nice twist job, of course you take out insurance on things right away, but my point was, what a convenient time to lease it, and purchase a RECORD SETTING insurance policy. Then claim it with out making barely any payment on it.
Do you remember what the real-estate market looked like back then? The insurance would HAVE TO BE record setting, because the lease itself was record-setting.
Also, he clearly wasn't obsessed with the terrorism bit of the policy because it was poorly worded, leaving the real-estate developey forced to fight a legal battle for his pay-out, and even then it was a payout that nearly bankrupted him, and he coudln't begin to recieve it until 2004. If he was really planning on having the towers collapse, wouldn't he have made sure the whole terrorism bit of the contract was iron-clad?
Also, no offense, but to suggest that he could somehow profit from the insurance claim MORE than he would have profitted from the towers still standing is a little naive. Even if Silverstein were able to collect twice on his insurance policies (an amount totalling to little over $7 billion) this still would have been significantly short of the estimated value of the properties when they were standing, which was $8 billion.
When you add in the loss in rents following the general flight from lower Manhattan following the attacks, especially given Silverstein's massive investments elsewhere in the city, even if Silverstein had recieved every penny he asked for from the insurance policies, he NEVER would have made money.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Can you explain this a little better, I don't quite understand what you mean.
Anyway, there is no reason why is should take over 450 days to launch an investigation into the biggest act of terrorism in United States history.
Sure, in the initial stages of the investigation (before the commission was formed) there was a higher priority placed on things like victim identification. There was also the initial rush to get to survivors which meant that evidence collection would have to wait until the possibility of survival had passed.
Once that was done, the investigation *did* begin. FEMA and other government agencies immediately began investigating. Discussion of a congressional investigation didn't begin until January 2002. At that point Bush wanted the Senate Intelligence committee (which is bipartisan, so claiming this is part of the conspiracy is crap unless there were Democrats "in" on the conspiracy) to investigate the attacks. The families of the victims were uncomfortable with that because of the secret nature of Intelligence Committee debate.
The Democrats called for a more open investigation, but the victims families did not agree with many Democrat-forwarded ideas and a united-front wasn't presented for several months. This is a very short version, the book I mentioned has over 100 pages on this process that I outlined in 2 sentences
Meanwhile, the investigations by FEMA, NIST, and the Sentate Intelligence Committee went forward, so claiming that no invesigation took place is a complete falsehood.
When the commission was formed the first thing they did was look at the reports from these investigations, which had already taken place.
Quote:
alpharedecho said:
Did you watch the way it fell in on itself. I would think that with the problems you described, the building would collapse in the direction of the structural breaches.
Also, Oklahoma city bombing......wouldn't that be a similar example? I'm not sure, and have done no research on it, so if it helps prove your point, so be it. I just thought it should have collapsed too, according to your logic.
The building did collapse in the direction of the damaged area. If you look at the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th from last photos on this page: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
you can clearly see that the building was collapsing to the South-East, and not straight downward. Furthermore, looking at the 5th photo from the bottom you can clearly see that all the debris from the WTC 7 collapse fell toward the South East, and not symmetrically around the base (as it would if it collapse straight downwards).
Finally, the Oklahomah City bombing isn't relevant for 2 key reasons:
First the building never caught fire. WTC 7 caught fire across several floors and the fire burned for over 6 hours.
Second, the two buildings were constructed in significantly different ways, one was a steel-frame construction (WTC 7), the other was a reinforced concrete construction (Oklahomah City).
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6057432 - 09/13/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Of all the disconcerting things people have posted about 9/11, I find the most disconcerting one to be in someones signature.
Quote:
"For more than a century, ideological extremists, at either end of the political spectrum, have seized upon well-publicized incidents, such as my encounter with Castro, to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal, working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists,' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
David Rockefeller, Memoirs, 2002, p. 405
Who has what to say about this admission from David Rockefeller? Think of how many people are called moon bats and nut jobs when they mention the "Illuminati" or the Bilderberg meetings and here, a member, admits to the existence of it and that they will work against the best interest of the U.S. to further their international interests. You can't dispute it. He said it. He along with his brother being one of the founders of the WTC project.
How many of you knew the Rockefeller's initiated the plans for the WTC and that when met with resistance for the plan, a brother, Nelson, got elected as Governor, who then, put his own people on the Board of Directors at the Port Authority and then, got the plan passed, despite enormous protest. One of the biggest reasons for the protest was that, government money was now being spent, to make it happen for them, when there already was a huge surplus of office space available for rent in Lower Manhattan.
Who and why, gets the government and tax payer money to help them tear down and rebuild on 16 acres of land, (ten million sq foot of office spaces) that there is no public/private need or demand for? How many of you know those Towers sat mostly empty through the 70s and 80s? What spaces were rented ended up being rented out to the state for government offices at inflated prices, meaning tax payers paid for most of what rent came in, during it's first 20 years.
It did start to fill in more and become profitable in the 90s with the internet boom. Planning was started in the late 1950s and the doors opened in 1973.
Forget about how much of the 9/11 debates don't make much common sense. The conception of the WTC doesn't make any either.
The history of it aside, David Rockefeller publicly declares in his memoirs that is a member of a secret cabal that does not have the U.S. at its best interest. His name is on the guest list of their last meeting.
David Rockefeller put the WTC their for his own interests of course, which he proudly declares are not in the best of the U.S.
Is it so shocking then, that he may be involved with a group that took them down for their own interests, which he admits are not in the best interest of the U.S.?
Someone or a couple steered attention more towards the private sector of global monetary power which uses elected government officials (which are in control of global military power) as their pawns.
In other words, when one says "inside job", maybe it was an inside job, however, it may not have been initiated by the government and they may have just been manipulated to play along. Something else to consider, if an inside job of sorts was at play.
Oh, and if anyone asks, "What did David Rockey have to gain by taking out his own buildings that finally became profitable? For money like theirs (and the family is in Banking) 150 million a year in profit, that the WTC was generating is chump change.
However, generating reason for a war on terror and then being able to justify invading a country claimed to have nukes they will sell to terrorists to use on the U.S. gave them reason to take out Saddam, who's country has a lot of wealth in oil. Reason being is that, Saddam was never a part of the One World Order Bilderburg group nor cared to be. If you read up on the agenda of the group to eliminate all powerful threats against their wealth, (first forged in the early 1900s) by getting them all to work together to maintain their wealth and power, Saddam had to go and be replaced with someone who would join their group and not be a threat to them. The perfect set up to justify and over throw of a global power to replace it with a yes man.
On a side note, its weird to think all of this could be going on, while they just freaking have most of us with a pot to piss in, going along with it because, Americans like their recliners, satellite TV, Doritoes, techy gadgets, sports cars, taco grande's, strip malls, 401K's and free internet porn.
The only way they will ever crumble is if they are left to collapse in on themselves. It would take an extra greedy power hungry group within the group, forming its own secret society to over throw the group, others finding out about it, getting paranoid, mistrust growing, and them all turning on each other. Such a scenario would be a case of their worst fear manifesting, (what they have been subjecting the masses to all of this time) and what all of the scheming has been meant to prevent happening to them in the first place.
In other words, given time, everything comes back to its creator tenfold and only their own greed will tear them apart and down. Not sure if it will happen in my life time, but I rest assured it will at some point in time.
I still don't know what to believe myself. What if the official story is close to the truth and Bin laden with his connections to the Bush Family and CIA and his own uber wealthy Oil family became disillusioned with the Bilderburgs global scheming for world domination and was just attacking symbols of it and anyone who worked for it.
In PAL the other day, someone put up a post asking if anyone thought Bin Laden may someday be recognized as an American Hero? It sounded nuts at the time, still does, but who knows? If the official story is true and Bin Laden has been taking active offense to the Bilderburg group, maybe he will be.
Look at how the 9/11 attack exposed so much about it. How many people knew about it before 9/11/01 ? I didn't. The 9/11 attacks got people asking a lot of questions and digging deep for answers, explanations and understanding.
Another consideration. Maybe Bin Laden and his cronies (driven by his ego need for recognition and tired of being just a Bilderburg pawn) is the first within the group to turn against the group and we are seeing the beginning of the Bilderburg melt down.
Will more connected to the Bilderburgs crack under varying heats of public pressure, ego drives, or a moment of consciousness and turn on them if thats what Osama did, and the offical story is close to the truth?
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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pantsboy
I troll because I care.
Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 13,002
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Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6057512 - 09/13/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I personally couldn't give a fuck either way. It's already happend and it's old news now. What people should be thinking about is how to better prepare themselves mentally and physically against future incidents like these. Everything seems to building up and accelerating at such an intense rate that I really can't seem to find the time to question and analyze past events.
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Acid doesn't hurt when you're on fire.
"Mushrooms are only similar to penises in their appearance." - LeBron James (2013) ToiletDuk said: "Bus squelching is not to be laughed at."
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: pantsboy]
#6057605 - 09/13/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Exactly pantsboy. I think many do see it that way and the analyzing is really about getting to the bottom of just who it is people are now to be covering their own asses from. Is it the U.S. government? The uber wealthy private sector? Islamist extremists?
Does it even really matter to know if regardless who it is, the goal is to put us under their thumb through the weapon of FEAR?
Breaking it down to a classic system of using fear as the primo weapon of manipulation being used against us to keep us in our places, the best future prevention to not falling under their thumb is to NOT LIVE IN FEAR.
So I don't. I don't care who calls me gay for all my posts about living in love with life.
My last reply here was rainy day "who dunnit murder mystery" entertainment.
Gotta keep living, laughin and loving life before its ripped away from you one way or another.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: pantsboy]
#6057660 - 09/13/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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While I wouldn't exactly say that it doesn't matter, I agree that it's not worth dwelling on. I generally try not to spend too much time arguing in these threads because even if Bush is guilty, everyone knows he's never going to go to trial for it. At most, the good that could come out of this is to be more suspicious if we have another terrorist attack, and to be more skeptical when the federal government claims it needs more power in order to fight terrorism. For me, it's just a matter of putting up with two more years of this asshole and hoping we get someone better in 2008.
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6057684 - 09/13/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
Of all the disconcerting things people have posted about 9/11, I find the most disconcerting one to be in someones signature.
Quote:
"For more than a century, ideological extremists, at either end of the political spectrum, have seized upon well-publicized incidents, such as my encounter with Castro, to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal, working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists,' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
David Rockefeller, Memoirs, 2002, p. 405
Who has what to say about this admission from David Rockefeller? Think of how many people are called moon bats and nut jobs when they mention the "Illuminati" or the Bilderberg meetings and here, a member, admits to the existence of it and that they will work against the best interest of the U.S. to further their international interests. You can't dispute it. He said it. He along with his brother being one of the founders of the WTC project.
How many of you knew the Rockefeller's initiated the plans for the WTC and that when met with resistance for the plan, a brother, Nelson, got elected as Governor, who then, put his own people on the Board of Directors at the Port Authority and then, got the plan passed, despite enormous protest. One of the biggest reasons for the protest was that, government money was now being spent, to make it happen for them, when there already was a huge surplus of office space available for rent in Lower Manhattan.
Who and why, gets the government and tax payer money to help them tear down and rebuild on 16 acres of land, (ten million sq foot of office spaces) that there is no public/private need or demand for? How many of you know those Towers sat mostly empty through the 70s and 80s? What spaces were rented ended up being rented out to the state for government offices at inflated prices, meaning tax payers paid for most of what rent came in, during it's first 20 years.
It did start to fill in more and become profitable in the 90s with the internet boom. Planning was started in the late 1950s and the doors opened in 1973.
Forget about how much of the 9/11 debates don't make much common sense. The conception of the WTC doesn't make any either.
The history of it aside, David Rockefeller publicly declares in his memoirs that is a member of a secret cabal that does not have the U.S. at its best interest. His name is on the guest list of their last meeting.
David Rockefeller put the WTC their for his own interests of course, which he proudly declares are not in the best of the U.S.
Is it so shocking then, that he may be involved with a group that took them down for their own interests, which he admits are not in the best interest of the U.S.?
Someone or a couple steered attention more towards the private sector of global monetary power which uses elected government officials (which are in control of global military power) as their pawns.
In other words, when one says "inside job", maybe it was an inside job, however, it may not have been initiated by the government and they may have just been manipulated to play along. Something else to consider, if an inside job of sorts was at play.
Oh, and if anyone asks, "What did David Rockey have to gain by taking out his own buildings that finally became profitable? For money like theirs (and the family is in Banking) 150 million a year in profit, that the WTC was generating is chump change.
However, generating reason for a war on terror and then being able to justify invading a country claimed to have nukes they will sell to terrorists to use on the U.S. gave them reason to take out Saddam, who's country has a lot of wealth in oil. Reason being is that, Saddam was never a part of the One World Order Bilderburg group nor cared to be. If you read up on the agenda of the group to eliminate all powerful threats against their wealth, (first forged in the early 1900s) by getting them all to work together to maintain their wealth and power, Saddam had to go and be replaced with someone who would join their group and not be a threat to them. The perfect set up to justify and over throw of a global power to replace it with a yes man.
On a side note, its weird to think all of this could be going on, while they just freaking have most of us with a pot to piss in, going along with it because, Americans like their recliners, satellite TV, Doritoes, techy gadgets, sports cars, taco grande's, strip malls, 401K's and free internet porn.
The only way they will ever crumble is if they are left to collapse in on themselves. It would take an extra greedy power hungry group within the group, forming its own secret society to over throw the group, others finding out about it, getting paranoid, mistrust growing, and them all turning on each other. Such a scenario would be a case of their worst fear manifesting, (what they have been subjecting the masses to all of this time) and what all of the scheming has been meant to prevent happening to them in the first place.
In other words, given time, everything comes back to its creator tenfold and only their own greed will tear them apart and down. Not sure if it will happen in my life time, but I rest assured it will at some point in time.
I still don't know what to believe myself. What if the official story is close to the truth and Bin laden with his connections to the Bush Family and CIA and his own uber wealthy Oil family became disillusioned with the Bilderburgs global scheming for world domination and was just attacking symbols of it and anyone who worked for it.
In PAL the other day, someone put up a post asking if anyone thought Bin Laden may someday be recognized as an American Hero? It sounded nuts at the time, still does, but who knows? If the official story is true and Bin Laden has been taking active offense to the Bilderburg group, maybe he will be.
Look at how the 9/11 attack exposed so much about it. How many people knew about it before 9/11/01 ? I didn't. The 9/11 attacks got people asking a lot of questions and digging deep for answers, explanations and understanding.
Another consideration. Maybe Bin Laden and his cronies (driven by his ego need for recognition and tired of being just a Bilderburg pawn) is the first within the group to turn against the group and we are seeing the beginning of the Bilderburg melt down.
Will more connected to the Bilderburgs crack under varying heats of public pressure, ego drives, or a moment of consciousness and turn on them if thats what Osama did, and the offical story is close to the truth?
Stop wasting your time that qoute doesnt bypass the scaredy cat filter in some people's brains
Seriously the more people know the weaker the elite become. It is more dangerous to ignore it :
Quote:
In other words, when one says "inside job", maybe it was an inside job, however, it may not have been initiated by the government and they may have just been manipulated to play along.
You nailed it ive been trying to put this into words. I have a huge problem with the term inside job. Coup d'état in the government did 911 would be so much more effective and realistic.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6057865 - 09/13/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said:
Breaking it down to a classic system of using fear as the primo weapon of manipulation being used against us to keep us in our places, the best future prevention to not falling under their thumb is to NOT LIVE IN FEAR.
That's were I see the real problem laying; in the co-option of 9/11 as a brand for marketing fear to the electorate, and pushing political agendas...
I tend to think of 9/11 as the natural result of an extremism, logically born of a particularly-tense geopolitical situation, brought about, over the last century, by the dissolution of colonial empires, empty promises, cold-war posturing, and greed over natural resources.
I can't say, I was particularly surprised that it happened, or that it could happen. I was certainly not one of these people wandering around in a daze asking, "why do they hate us?" It seemed perfectly reasonable to me that that region was a breeding ground for rabid anti-americanism, spawned by our foreign policy, and funded by our own petro-dollars.
Was it right? No.
Was it a nice thing to do? No.
Was it an understandable result of certain political and cultural realities that we very much had a hand in shaping? Yes, it was...
The sooner we start looking at why it happened, and how its legacy is being co-opted for political expedience, the sooner we can hopefully start to adopt real changes which will avoid such things happening again.
In some ways, this whole 9/11-Truth movement is a perfect distraction from true analysis of the real structural problems that led to 9/11, and the real lessons to be learned from it. In fact, it is so effective as a diversion to these real issues, that one could almost theorize that the 9/11-Truth Movement is actually funded and encouraged by the Republican Party...
Think about it...
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6057907 - 09/13/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I absolutely agree that the terrorist had good reason to hate America. However, I think the issue is the way the government ignored several warnings(whether deliberately out of incompetence) and then acted like they needed charte blanche to spy on Americans and restrict civil liberties in order to fight terrorism, when they already had enough intelligence to prevent 9/11. There's major lessons to be learned from the incident on both the home front and abroad.
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6057947 - 09/13/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree, but my point is, that this "controlled demolition" stuff is a total waste of energy and focus, which will ultimately lead nowhere, and tends to discredit anybody else looking into the government's actions, or lack thereof, by association...
The Republican Party itself could not have come up with a better diversion if it planned it...
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6058329 - 09/13/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very refreshing read on the topic Pap! 
The refreshing part is pulling away from the details that get argued to ad nauseam and looking at the over all big picture of the geo-political state of the world and how we have indirectly contributed support to whichever larger system innovated the plan and put it into action.
It's funny when you hear the populous bitch about oil being the underlying reason while we all drive cars around.
Its funny when you hear the populous bitch about religious intolerant extremists being the underlying reason while (look to shroomery ratings system for examples) most are guilty of being intolerant of minor differences to an extreme.
It's funny when you hear the populous bitch about the uber wealth of the private sector as being the underlying reason, while we are all using, a product spawned by Bill Gates, and have bank accounts, credit cards, and work for uber wealthy employers.
Like it or not, the system that tore it up on 9/11 is something most all of us are a part of creating and supporting, if even indirectly.
Like I said, none of us with a pot to piss in are ready to give up our cushy lives of convenience and frills either.
What a mess!!! 
And no doubt, the debates over the truth of 9/11 are keeping people divided, in anger, slinging ridicule like its going out of style, so caught up into the little details of what temperature steel melts at, what did the Owner of WTC7 mean when he said "pull the building", was that actually thermite residue in the photo of wreckage, yada yada. While individuals get so up into each other faces arguing over the multitude of unanswered questions, who is stepping back to look at the big global picture and our collective history let alone, observing where they fit within creating and supporting the current state of affairs, themselves?
In the same light the global powers use fear to drive us around, people forget that it is fear of loosing all their wealth and power over us that is driving them around.
Oh fuck all this damn fear on planet earth anyway. What is the dis-ease that has so many living in fear of loss of money, power or life.
There is no need for it. Everyone could be living in relative peace and safety with survival needs met and more then enough comforts and musings to make life here kick some serious ass for everyone.
Where does all of this fear come from? I say, lack of information, ignorance, being in the dark about things "darkness" in general. Where does that come from? How we are educated formally and informally.
What we can do as individuals to work on future prevention is to each ask ourselves what were we taught about life, ohers and how to live it. Reflect on that and see how what we were taught fits into the creation of such a mess. Ask ourselves what we teach others about life and how to live it. Reflect on where any of our own teachings fit into the creation of such a mess.
Look at the Bullshit impoverished kids are taught about themselves and life and the Bullshit the uber wealthy kids are taught about themselves and life. Even middle roaders like myself were fed a lot of bullshit about themselves, others and life.
We all can be living in much peace, comfort and benefitting big time from co-operation instead of loosing big time from insecurities and greedy competition, yet we ALL are not. 
Why?
The super rich may be living in comfort, but they certainly don't live in peace. They live in constant fear of loosing all they have, their status titles, people kidnapping their kids for ransoms, people they burnt to get ahead coming after them in revenge. Saddam lived in MEGA wealth and luxury with 11 Palaces and had to change the place he slept in every night out of fear of being assascinated. He had to have people eat is food first to make sure it wasn't poisoned. Talk about living paranoid for real. No Thanks!!
They are kidding themselves if they think they have it made by hogging most of the worlds wealth. They live in their own self created hells, and prisons, fearing loosing it all everyday. Because they are so paranoid of loosing it all, they have to keep everyone else as down and broke as possible, to help ease those fears. In the process, everyone else is fearing of them taking away what little we do have left over by comparison.
In reality we have a lot. We have our freedom to choose our own words, thoughts, feelings and actions still. There's a lot of personal wealth, power, and freedom in that.
Anyone who has made living in peace with themselves and life their first priority and then, basic comforts second, and how to help others achieve those two values third has it figured out.
FUUUUUUUUUUCK all this living in fear crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On a final note, I hear so much talk at the shroomery of people saying they won't have children because the world is going to hell in a hand basket, there's no hope for the future, and the planets over populated (no excuse not to adopt then). Thats all bullshit too.
Who put the world in the proverbial going to hell, no hope for it scope they see it in, in the first place? People kids. So who has the ability to turn it around and take us out of it? Peoples kids. Have them and teach them better ways to get along and help out here.
There is lots of good in this world and lots of good people working to turn it around. If the media only reported the good things happening by the good people, we all would be conducting ourselves more purposefully and constructively because we could believe in this place, trust in good will of others and have hope for the best yet to come more easily. Turn the news off for good!
For example, a few weeks ago my 9 year old daughter and I were in the store, she went to go get a CD she wanted. She came back to where I was with empty hands. I asked her if she needed help finding it. She said , "No thanks mom. I saw someone collecting money for the children's hospital and put my $20.00 in the bucket instead." 
She asked the other day if she could do some extra chores because she was saving her money to send to Green Peace. She's 9.
If someone like me raised in a violent, catholic dogmatic, bigotted fear based household can raise a kid like that, there is hope we all can. We all just need a little more of the loving spirit in our hearts and a one for all all for the one attitude.
We are looking for reasons behind 9/11 that make sense. There is no reason for it that makes any sense. It was senseless, period.
Love life, don't fear it!
Again, fresh perspective Pap!!!
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: buckwheat]
#6059532 - 09/14/06 12:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
buckwheat said:
Stop wasting your time that quote doesn't bypass the scaredy cat filter in some people's brains
It was the hottest tid bit here that caught my attention as I was reading through the thread. I am sensitive to the scaredy cat filter in peoples brains, yet......like you said-
Quote:
Seriously the more people know the weaker the elite become. It is more dangerous to ignore it
It can't be ignored if one wants to understand more.
There seem to be two camps here. Those who believe this will all go away when we kill or lock up every Muslim extremist and those who believe it will all go away once Bush is out of office. It's not looking that simple. It'll go away when the Federal Reserve system gets abolished or brutally weakened it seems.
I was shooting from the hip earlier recalling a show I just saw on the Rockyfellas owning the WTC and got to thinking along new lines when I read your sig quote of his. I got curious to dig deeper.
I'm reading stuff like the Muslims extremists hate them because they hate their being the U.S. arm of the Jewish Rothschild's that supposedly gave half of Palestine to Israel. Where Bush gets involved is simply as a pawn of the Federal Reserve, which is privately owned and I never knew that.
Shit, talk about needing better public education to make people smart enough to prevent this stuff from happening. I just learned a lot about how the U.S. Federal Reserve works. Considering this thread has gotten almost 1000 views in the last 2 days and there are 9/11 posts spanning multiple forums, I think others are wanting some more enlightenment as well.
Some may find this bit I dug up on it interesting to be aware of. It's below in quotes. (The Rockeyfellas own the Chase Bank in the list btw.)
To quickly add to what was said about preventing this stuff in our collective lives and where we indirectly are supporting such events, it would seem that we need to stop feeding the fed res by doing everything we can to cut off/down what we pay out in loan interests by paying cash for things and or paying off bank debts quickly, (federal taxes taken out of employment checks we can't avoid-which pays off debts to the fed res) and not supporting wars that we have to borrow money (made of air) from the federal reserve to fund, and pay hefty interest on as well. The numbers these guys pull off a year alone makes your head spin-see article. Like I guessed before, the 150 mill a year the WTC was making was chump change. They'll make waaaaaaaay more off collecting on debts this war on Iraq has been accruing at dizzying rates.
I just think its good that we further educate ourselves about how the U.S. Federal Reserve works and how the U.S. Government actually doesn't own and control its own money.
Before I depart and leave you to read how the fed res works, I just want say that it would kick ass to be able to loan people "money made of air" and then get paid back that amount plus interest in real cash. These guys are slick This is really entertaining stuff!! They have the power to bankrupt the U.S.  Wtf good is our ability to send probes to mars, and make nukes if an outside party can do that to this country? I never knew how financially vulnerable this country was. I thought it was rich biatch!! NOT!!
You all do your own math.......
Quote:
The Constitution of the United States clearly states that only Congress shall have the power to create money and regulate the value thereof.
Today, however, the money is actually created and regulated by a privately owned company that controls and profits by printing money through the Treasury, and regulating its value.
What is the private company that prints U.S. dollars? It is the Federal Reserve Bank (the Fed).
Most people think the Fed is a government arm.
Its name is misleading. It says ‘Federal’ yet it is not federal at all.
It is a fully private corporation.
It also says ‘Reserve’, yet it has no reserves. As you will see, the money is printed literally and completely out of thin air, not backed by any value or gold (that ended decades ago when they abandoned the gold standard). It is one of the most secretive and controversial institutions today, the truth behind it becoming only recently clear to an increasing number of people.
The Fed began in 1914 and, after trying to do so unsuccessfully several times before due to opposition, about 300 people and banks put together just $100 each and formed the Federal Reserve Banking System.
These people and bankers formed and still form part of the top 2% of the world’s wealthiest and powerful people.
The Fed is one of the most profitable companies in the world. It also collects billions of dollars in interest annually, interest charged to the U.S. government.
The history of its formation is filled with controversy, with many experts having the opinion that Congress illegally gave the Fed the right to print money in ways contrary to the Constitution.
This is how, in a nutshell, the Fed works: The Fed creates money from nothing, and loans it back to the U.S. and other governments, and charges interest on the currency (you will soon see more details on how this is done). It buys government debt with money it simply creates out of nothing, and charges interest to U.S. taxpayers.
The ownership of the Fed has always been kept a closely guarded secret. In fact, even their books and detailed accounts are kept secret. However, over time much has come to the open. On some of the last times the ownership of the Fed was investigated (because the Fed doesn’t publish a sufficiently detailed list of its owners), the following emerged as the main direct or indirect (through cross holdings etc) owners of the Federal Reserve Bank:
• Rothschild Bank of London
• Warburg Bank of Hamburg
• Rothschild Bank of Berlin
• Lehman Brothers of New York
• Lazard Brothers of Paris
• Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York
• Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy
• Goldman, Sachs of New York
• Warburg Bank of Amsterdam
• Chase Manhattan Bank of New York-Rockefellers
• Citibank
• Morgan Guaranty Trust
• Chemical Bank
• Manufacturers Hanover Trust
• Bankers Trust Company
• National Bank of North America
• Bank of New York
What is interesting is that these big banks work together in various aspects and they are connected to the old and established London Banking Houses ever since the beginning.
There is only a small but powerful group of individuals who own significant shares in these banks. This gives them ownership of the Fed through their ownership of the banks that have shares in the Fed (the Fed’s shares are not publicly traded but are sold only to member banks).
The bankers in favor of this system had always been opposed by the people and their leaders throughout the years, by presidents and congressional representatives alike.
But in 1913, Senator Nelson Aldrich, the maternal grandfather to the Rockefellers, pushed the Federal Reserve Act through Congress just before Christmas during which time much of Congress was on vacation.
According to some historians, the bankers also funded Woodrow Wilson’s campaign and when he became president, he passed the Federal Reserve Act in 1914, an act he is later on record as having regretted its passing.
In the past, money was backed by something of value such as gold.
All paper money could be exchanged into a certain amount of gold upon its return to the bank.
However, between 1931 and 1934, virtually all countries abandoned the gold standard. The power of gold as the standard for the international monetary system was further diminished in 1975 when the U.S. began selling some of its reserves on the world market, turning gold into a commodity.
By 1975, the gold standard was virtually non-existent. Today, virtually no money is backed by anything real; it is simply printed out of thin air (actually most of it is simply created as a new record on a computer, remaining in thin air).
The U.S. budget is almost always in deficit.
Almost every year, the budget has more costs than income.
No individual would ever run their life that way, no corporation could possibly ever run that way, yet the government does this almost every single year.
It seems to be able to perpetuate the impossible – forever in debt yet still strong.
Do you know how this debt is financed?
When the government runs a deficit, the Federal Reserve Bank – a private company - prints dollars (actually just makes up computer money and ‘wires’ it to the appropriate banks), “buys” the debt, and the dollars are circulated into the economy and the government then pays the Fed interest on that money.
For example, in 1992, taxpayers paid the Fed $286 billion in interest. That would be all right except for the fact that this debt was “purchased” by printing money cost-free and out of thin air.
This debt is passed on to the taxpayers to pay through real work and sweat. 40% of personal federal income taxes are spent on paying this debt and interest. What is even more interesting, other than the fact that the Fed is a private company that makes profit out printing, from nothing, the world’s money, is that the Fed’s books are closed to the public and are not audited by Congress.
Once the Federal Reserve Act was passed, the owners of the Fed moved quickly to purchase controlling interests in the media and financed a great proportion of the senators elected after that (as you will see, an un-proportionately high number of ex-presidents and senators are members of just one institution we will be talking about later).
A few presidents, such as Lincoln, Jackson, and Kennedy, have tried to change this system but encountered too much opposition from other politicians, banks and corporations.
By simply giving the task of printing U.S. dollars to the government itself, the money can be issued without anyone charging ‘interest’ for it, since it would be the government itself printing the money.
The Fed’s relationship with the government is very loose.
As a private company, it is not required to disclose much to the public.
It is run by a powerful group of people who are free from the usual restrictions of governmental checks and balances.
Its Board of Governors is independent of the government and its governors hold office for far longer than any U.S. president does. It is also self-financing (actually it is one of the most profitable corporations in the world) and so does not rely on the national budget (the primary tool of control that Congress uses to influence agencies and other bodies).
It operates outside of the national budget (in fact finances it) and so has monetary autonomy as well. In its task of regulating the money supply, it is completely independent of the government and is only ‘required’ to make decisions that will be in line with the nation’s economic policy.
The Federal Reserve Act was drafted in the Jekyll Island Conference, which was arranged for by powerful banking families, individuals and their corporations (such as J. P. Morgan Co., the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, and Kuhn, Loeb & Co). The ownership of the Federal Reserve at the top level has not changed much in the years with successive generations within the controlling families simply inheriting that ownership or extending it under a different company name.
Taken from "A Happy Pocketfull of Money" by David Cameron.
Visit http://tinyurl.com/a2or8 for full download details of this thought-provocking masterpiece.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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KarenTandy
scientist
Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 229
Loc: The Milky Way
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Edited by KarenTandy (08/13/09 08:00 PM)
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6059600 - 09/14/06 01:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm sorry but I just cannot allow the above post to stand, as it's a concoction of mischaracterizations and utter crap.
As my name suggests, this is actually what I study in school, it's very interesting and very important to me. I have read countless papers published both by and about the Federal Reserve, and I can say without a doubt that it is most certainly not what the above post makes it out to be.
Let's begin with some basics:
First off, the Fed NEEDS to be largely independent of the US Government. The fact that it is independent is a large part of what has allowed the US Economy to perform so well in the past century. Furthermore, other nations have moved to follow the US example for just this reason (the most notable being the government of the UK which decided in 1997 that the Bank of England would manage monetary policy independently of the government).
Nobel-Prize winning economists (Edward Prescott, Finn Kydland) as well as empirical evidence (Argentina, New Zealand) have proven time and time again that when a government controls monetary policy the result is almost always either hyper-inflation or higher-than-normal unemployment. This is because you ultimately always have politicians running on the "I will print more money!" ticket, regardless of economic research on how and why that is often bad.
Now, let's look at the whole mis-information about the national debt.
The national debt is NOT financed by the Federal Reserve, it is financed by the treasury. The government is able to deficit spend by selling Treasury notes. When you buy a treasury note you are giving a loan to the US government. Foreign powers (notably China) frequently purchase treasury notes in order to finance their own currency. (i.e. if the Chinese government buys a lot of T-notes, and the market believes in the value of the dollar, then the effect is the same as if the Chinese had purchased a large amount of gold)
Furthermore, the Fed does not cost the US taxpayers anything because it is self-financing through open-market operations, the method it uses to regulate currency levels in the US.
Whenever the Fed wants to make a change to the currency level, it undertakes a so-called "open market operation" which basically means lending a certain amount of previously none-existant money to one of several commercial banks (which bank is chosen is determined by competitive bidding). This money is then loaned out by the commercial banks and thus enters the US economy. When the Fed needs to reduce the amount of cash in the US economy, it simply calls in several of the loans.
By calling in the loans it generates revenue (interest paid on previously non-existant dollars) and has been able to self-finance via this function for almost all of its existance.
The Fed is also responsible for clearing all checks issued within the US. It charges a small fee for this service from commercial banks, and these fees have covered the difference whenever open market operations weren't enough. (though open market operations are of such great magnitudes that for the majority of the Fed's existance they've been more than enough)
Any profit the Fed makes is turned over to the treasury at the end of every fiscal year. This profit turn-over is openly done, and on the public record.
About the entire "Fed owning media outlets" I don't know where that comes from, but it's completely false.
I can see how someone could *maybe* get confused, because commercial banks in America all own a share of the Fed, and those same banks probably own shares in media outlets, but that's part of the complex accounting system that makes open market operations possible, and not a function of actual ownership.
It's so sad to see the woefully uninformed come up with such ridiculous conspiracies...
Recommended reading:
Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, by William Greider (It was a bestseller in the 80s, and despite the title, it's a real-life account and not at all congruent with any of the Federal Reserve conspiracies)
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SerratedFrond
Pinning
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 131
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Silversoul]
#6059616 - 09/14/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
And of course, PNAC put out a document in the mid-90's stating that it would take "a new Pearl Harbor" to implement their neoconservative strategy.
Actually I believe they were speaking about technologies, and military intelligence issues . . . You must read the entire "document". Which is essentially the summerized minutes of meetings, or a "report".
Moving on,
This information about the Fed is very interesting. The last two posts really were edifying.
Fascinating stuff guys and ladies, I think its thread has taken a turn for the better!
Jiggy - your daughter sounds like a peach! Kudos to you.
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Genesis 1:29
AsalamAlakum ~ SF
Edited by SerratedFrond (09/14/06 01:36 AM)
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: SerratedFrond]
#6059680 - 09/14/06 02:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
First off, the Fed NEEDS to be largely independent of the US Government. The fact that it is independent is a large part of what has allowed the US Economy to perform so well in the past century.
This is very true!
Whereas, I would agree that there are perhaps structural problems with the current state of corporate america, and that this is cause for concern. This is not the result of some sort of secret cabal, so much as the result of natural conclusions to trends in a free market system; which is a great system, but not without faults.
I would like to see some tighter regulation on banks and corporations, but not so much as to strangle the beast on whose back we live. And I would like this to be intelligent, reasoned, and well thought-out, regulation, not the cobbled result of knee-jerk reactions to what made a politically-expedient sound-bite before the last election.
Business does, what business does, the real problem is not with business, but with our politicians. They are the ones who are responsible for establishing the environment in which the "free-market" operates, and when you have idiots like Ted "It's a series of tubes" Stevens as chairman of the United States Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, then you are going to have serious problems.
Of course, this is always a problem with the "mob rule" aspects of a democracy, and I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with our representative version of democracy; only that I wish our electorate, and hence our elected officials, were better educated and more thoughtful about things...
*An Aside: I'm really sick to death of how partisan politics has become, and I am thoroughly disgusted with both parties right now. They are both doing far more harm than good, and the news media (which has now de-evolved into a for-profit business running on a 24-hour cable/satellite news cycle) is not helping one bit.
Quote:
SerratedFrond said:
Jiggy - your daughter sounds like a peach! Kudos to you.
Yes. I agree! You're raising a wonderful future citizen.
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buckwheat
Cynically Insane
Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 11,179
Loc: Not Enough Characters to ...
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6059747 - 09/14/06 03:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
About the entire "Fed owning media outlets" I don't know where that comes from, but it's completely false.
John Swinton, the former Chief of Staff of the New York Times, called by his peers "the Dean of his profession", was asked in 1953 to give a toast before the New York Press Club. He responded with the following statement:
"There is no such thing as an independent press in America, if we except that of litle country towns. You know this and I know it. Not a man among you dares to utter his honest opinion. Were you to utter it, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print.
I am paid one hundred and fifty dollars a week so that I may keep my honest opinion out of the newspaper for which I write. You too are paid similar salaries for similar services. Were I to permit that a single edition of my newspaper contained an honest opinion, my occupation - like Othello's - would be gone in less than twenty-four hours.
The man who would be so foolish as to write his honest opinion would soon be on the streets in search of another job. It is the duty of a New York journalist to lie, to distort, to revile, to toady at the feet of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread, or what amounts to the same thing, his salary.
We are the tools and the vassals of the rich behind the scenes. We are marionettes. These men pull the strings and we dance. Our time, our talents, our lives, our capacities are all the property of these men - we are intellectual prostitutes." (As quoted by T. St. John Gaffney in Breaking The Silence, page 4.)
I will admit i know very little about economics so i have not much to say about it. Wish i could I am woriking on it, One thing at a time.
I did read this book on the Federal Reserve or Bankers in general. The Money Masters: How International Bankers Gained Control of America
It's also on video for free Video Google..The Money Masters: How International Bankers Gained Control of America
The qoute above was from that book also other great ones like.
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
Henry Ford
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6059834 - 09/14/06 05:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What you shared eco, is nothing new and the same common propaganda we have always been fed to explain the actions of our government. There's what they have wanted us to believe and then, what is.
Like your dismissing the banks having shares in the private fed reserve and shares in media corps as "vital to open market". Excuse me????? This planet had a vital thriving open market running for thousands of years before a privatized U.S. Federal Reserve was forced upon us. Read the history on how that came to be and Woodrow Wilson's expressed regrets for his involvement with it.
Why would the banks who own and control the Federal Reserve care to have shares in the media anyway? Doing a search on how many have cronies on the Boards of Directors would be interesting. Perhaps I should add the last invitation list to a Bilderbergs recent swari which gives the names of many media moguls members on it.
What forever would the two have to pow wow about behind closed doors I wonder? Oh wait, they are just there to make friends and play golf. Thats the 'official" story about why they spend millions to meet secretely in private every year. Awesome that at least their meetings are not so secret anymore. There have even been a few interesting leeks of the discussions that go on by people who have been there.
And how do you dismiss our growing national debt, sucking up billions of dollars to fund the war in Iraq, like its common and normal for a nation to rack up such a ridiculous debt over bogus intelligence?  What WMD have we confiscated so far making the citisens of the U.S. safe from? Some stale firecrackers?
I wonder how much Bush is getting paid to keep this war going on for as long as he can, changing reasons for it along the way to really milk the bilking of what tax payers will owe the Federal Reserve when this is over.
Like the article said, being in massive debt is never good and not the way strong and sound business or personal finances are managed.
Enron was rich in bogus net worth numbers and assets and hidden debts and it toppled like a deck of cards when someone merely blew on it. Not before what real money was there got cashed out and stashed by the top execs.
I hope studying economics is your hobby. Do you actually get paid to tell people that the fraudulent bilking of American earned money into the Swiss bank accounts of the Federal Reserve owners is "good" for open trade? Who pays you for that wisdom? Is his name Gordan Gecko? Did you watch to much Wall street in the 80s and start believing that Greed is Good? Economists have nothing more then opinions and speculations to offer people and are not privy to any information the general public isn't.
I do know that while Americans have gone along with the typical propaganda you have just fed us, "believing everything is sound and hunky dory" the events of 9/11 happened, we went to war and more continued threats are coming in. Great economic plan you support, but for who?
You buy the official story eco. What's your reason for why Muslim extremists are terrorizing the U.S? If you search why, based on the official reason, your search will take you to their beef with Israel claiming land that the extremists believe belongs to Palestine and was stolen from them. Research further and you will find, how that came to be. You will also find the name Rothchild in that search and their Jewish connection. Now, connect the Rothschild's to the Federal Reserve and Rockefeller's also connected to it as well as the WTC, add in how the bank owners with shares in the Federal Reserve amass great fortunes when the U.S. is in war and tell me again how the privately owned and controlled Federal Reserve has no part in this?
It fits with your official story. The only thing you have yet to face is the reality that the Federal Reserve owners don't give a shit about Americas well fare.
May I remind you of the David Rockefeller's quote in his own memoirs? He was proud to admit that he is the member of a secret international cabal who's best interest is not in that of the U.S. Helloo??
Maybe you need to see more photos of maimed Iraqi children, kids crying missing their parents who were killed in the 9/11 attacks. What don't you get about something very senseless and fucked up happening on planet earth?
Tell those kids all about your rosey understanding of economics and what's good for open trade and see if that helps them understand why their legs were blown off, why their families homes were blown up with their parents killed in them, and why their Dad was crash flown into a building or had to jump 80 stories to his death to keep from burning alive.
Go ahead and tell them that it was "good for economic open trade" and see how it flies with them.
What you call "good for open market" I call negligent and careless greed in the works.
end response to eco
Real nice newbie who called me an idiot for thinking bush is too much of one to have masterminded this. That's called flaming btw and against pub rules. I never even voted for Bush. I vote Green. His level of intelligence no way qualifies him for a mastermind title in my book. If I am an idiot to you for not being able to give his level of intelligence that much credit, so be it.
I did suggest implicating him as being an easy to manipulate willing pawn of a larger game that has been played since before he was even born, by some extremely intelligent people. Research the history on this nations wars, economic depressions and times of inflation and energy crisis. Then research how the name Rothchild pops up into all of them. Google is your friend.
Thanks to the poster who said my daughter sounds like a peach. She blows me away. I don't give up hope for this planets future. I believe in it, her, myself and the good somewhere deep inside of everyone.
These people who make up the Bilderberg group, seemingly consciously capable of initiating, supporting and funding mass murders are only about 100 to the 6 billion of the rest of us who are not invited members. They are hardly a reflection of the human race at large which I continue to believe is mostly made up of good people at heart.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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SerratedFrond
Pinning
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 131
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6060566 - 09/14/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have an interesting question.
Lets pretend for a moment that the US government became forthright with us. It discloses its motivations for going to war in Iraq (assuming that this whole WMD thing was an intentional deception). What do you think they would say? Here are some of the popular ideas.
1. To kill Saddam.
Saddam Hussein, the man is a beast. Killing thousands of local people for sadistic reasons. Let us not forget who created this monster. We did . . in our history of installing corrupt dictators. So is cleaning up a mess that we created reason to invade Iraq? I think so. But I also tend to think that our government's heart isn't that regretful, so this probably isn't the reason.
2. Energy security
Alot of people scream blood for oil. However, we aren't seeing any oil from Iraq. Why is this? Because we get more then 80% of our oil from the Saudis, and somewhere around 3% from Iraq. The plan would be more to stabilize the region so that our current sources of oil are not interrupted. Also, I don't think we plan to rape Iraq of their resources. It is more in our interest to get their economy up and running and continue to buy from them at a reasonable market price. Which brings me to #3.
3. National Defense.
Terrorism aside. Lets look away from the middle east, and towards the far east. Everyone is focusing on Iraq and forgetting about China. How can we forget about a country who has written into their international policy that war with America is INEVITABLE! Now if you know anything about their ownership of the worlds industry, and our shift from a self sufficient nation to a primarily importing nation, then that scares you. So one might posture that having a democratic base in the middle east is ESSENTIAL for our survival in the coming years, both politically and geographically.
So my question is twofold;
Are any of these valid reasons for going to war?
What other reasons could be considered?
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Genesis 1:29
AsalamAlakum ~ SF
Edited by SerratedFrond (09/14/06 12:09 PM)
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6060586 - 09/14/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nevertheless, the Fed should remain independent. I don't want the executive branch, nor, god forbid, the legislative branch tinkering with the prime rate. Our economic engine should not be held hostage to political whims. It's too important, and I wouldn't trust the most of the politicians in either of those branches to balance their own checkbook, let alone meddle with anatomical heart of this country; the thing that pumps the economic-blood through the vascular system of this lumbering beast we fleas call home...
I might trust the Judicial branch, but they're not economists, so I think it's best left alone...
BTW: How did this thread morph into a totally different conspiracy theory?
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Viveka
refutation bias
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6060592 - 09/14/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
That's were I see the real problem laying; in the co-option of 9/11 as a brand for marketing fear to the electorate, and pushing political agendas...
I tend to think of 9/11 as the natural result of an extremism, logically born of a particularly-tense geopolitical situation, brought about, over the last century, by the dissolution of colonial empires, empty promises, cold-war posturing, and greed over natural resources.
I can't say, I was particularly surprised that it happened, or that it could happen. I was certainly not one of these people wandering around in a daze asking, "why do they hate us?" It seemed perfectly reasonable to me that that region was a breeding ground for rabid anti-americanism, spawned by our foreign policy, and funded by our own petro-dollars.
Was it right? No.
Was it a nice thing to do? No.
Was it an understandable result of certain political and cultural realities that we very much had a hand in shaping? Yes, it was...
The sooner we start looking at why it happened, and how its legacy is being co-opted for political expedience, the sooner we can hopefully start to adopt real changes which will avoid such things happening again.
In some ways, this whole 9/11-Truth movement is a perfect distraction from true analysis of the real structural problems that led to 9/11, and the real lessons to be learned from it. In fact, it is so effective as a diversion to these real issues, that one could almost theorize that the 9/11-Truth Movement is actually funded and encouraged by the Republican Party...
Think about it...
Perfectly stated! (though I think "Republican Party" could be replaced with "Federal Government") This is exactly why I make it a point to challenge delusional thinking about 9/11 when I see it. Kudos!
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Viveka]
#6060614 - 09/14/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Viveka said:
though I think "Republican Party" could be replaced with "Federal Government"
Good point, and thanks for the kudos...
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6060657 - 09/14/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Great post, of course me and you are just paranoid nutjobs.
I fear the world is to far down this path, and we may never recover it.
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Capliberty:
"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Papaver
Madmin Emeritus?
Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6060856 - 09/14/06 01:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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There's nothing wrong with that. I'm a paranoid nut-job too. I just don't show it. I'm a crypto-paranoid-nut-job. For example...
I think it's fairly obvious, that we are moving down an evolutionary path in which nation states will eventually be replaced by corporations (or similar economic entities) and that humanity, as we know it, will be displaced by a condition which can only be described as "post-human," probably something along the lines of a hive-collective, where the recent modernist "fad" of unique and authentic individuality will largely be diminished...
I don't think this will be the result of some sort of secret-cabal, however. I think this is going to be the natural outcome of the confluence of many factors; runaway technology; social pressure and hyper-legislation; over-population and diminishing resources; economics and futuristic utopian visions of wrong-minded, but well meaning people; and the sheer greed and selfishness of the yuppie-class with their Hummers, 8,000 sq. ft. McMansions, and elective plastic surgery for their 16-year-old children...
I don't really like it, but I think major change is coming in the next century, or so...
For better or worse, change is inevitable...
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6060899 - 09/14/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I understand your concerns about the ownership and who controls the Federal Reserve and interest rates. It being independent isn't really the issue. Who currently owns and controls it, why and how it was established, and their history is.
When one of the controlling parties proudly proclaims, "I am a member of a secret international cabal who's best interest isn't the U.S." it becomes an issue.
It was when buckwheat asked someone to read the quote in his signature, and everyone blew off addressing it, that I felt like stepping up to the plate to do it.
I don't think the subject matter morphed into something else entirely. I just think more information was provided that is related to the official story and all other versions of it.
If one is in the official story camp, we know what symbols the terrorist are targeting and why they are miffed. Its all about the Palestine and Israel land conflict. They want their holy sites back from Israel. A little digging underlines the Rothschild's family involvement with how it came to be owned by Israel. No secret the Rothschild's own shares in the Federal Reserve and were the ones who initiated with the help of the Rockefeller's who also own shares and developed the WTC.
Mind you, I'm not convinced of the twin tower demolition theory myself at this time. Running the numbers, I do think, what they were profiting off of them versus what they had to profit off of a war spawned by allowing them to get smacked with planes, was enough for them to at least look the other way if someone made them aware of the threats against it.
If you are in the Bush is behind it camp, I think most of them realize he would just be the puppet of a grand puppeteer pulling strings from behind the scenes. Considering the 9/11 terrorist attacks were the basis for invading Iraq to confiscate WPD terrorists might use against us, it's easy to understand where the Rothschild's are involved again. They make ridiculous amounts of money through issuing war funding loans, because of their share holder stake in the Federal Reserve, that issues and collects on those loans. Presidents come and go, but the private share holders of the Federal Reserve remain.
Really, this is just more information for people to consider and do their own independent research with if they are curious to learn more about it and dig deeper.
I still don't know what exactly I believe about the whole truth of it because after all these years, new information keeps pouring in to be factored and weighed out. I keep it loose and open. I know I definitely believe that Bush Jr. isn't smart enough to have masterminded it on his own. That you can put me in the books for. I can easily see him as being a front man puppet of a more intelligent source with motives of simple greed and power.
I'm not sure how I would restructure the current Federal Reserve system or what ideas for reform I would support. Haven't given it any thought yet. I would be thrilled if I saw congress and the Judicial branch trying to change it in my life time though.
BWT, Very provactive quotes in your last reply buckwheat.
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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ZippoZ
Knomadic
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6060954 - 09/14/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Papaver said:
There's nothing wrong with that. I'm a paranoid nut-job too. I just don't show it. I'm a crypto-paranoid-nut-job. For example...
I think it's fairly obvious, that we are moving down an evolutionary path in which nation states will eventually be replaced by corporations (or similar economic entities)
...................................
For better or worse, change is inevitable...
i couldnt agree more, as we watch, the american way of life is creating corporations more powerful than any government. Just wait untill corporate interests start openly waging war, and staging polocy
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PEACE
zippoz
"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"
"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Papaver]
#6061634 - 09/14/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Papaver said:
There's nothing wrong with that. I'm a paranoid nut-job too. I just don't show it. I'm a crypto-paranoid-nut-job. For example...
I think it's fairly obvious, that we are moving down an evolutionary path in which nation states will eventually be replaced by corporations (or similar economic entities) and that humanity, as we know it, will be displaced by a condition which can only be described as "post-human," probably something along the lines of a hive-collective, where the recent modernist "fad" of unique and authentic individuality will largely be diminished...
I don't think this will be the result of some sort of secret-cabal, however. I think this is going to be the natural outcome of the confluence of many factors; runaway technology; social pressure and hyper-legislation; over-population and diminishing resources; economics and futuristic utopian visions of wrong-minded, but well meaning people; and the sheer greed and selfishness of the yuppie-class with their Hummers, 8,000 sq. ft. McMansions, and elective plastic surgery for their 16-year-old children...
I don't really like it, but I think major change is coming in the next century, or so...
For better or worse, change is inevitable...
I see it heading that way, too. But I don't think it necessarily has to be that way. I, for one, plan to do my part to prevent such a future, and I think if enough prominent individuals do the same, we can head towards a brighter future.
PS: I found the real 9/11 culprit:
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
#6062152 - 09/14/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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gettinjiggy -
I think you jumped to a LOT of conclusions very quickly.
All I said in my post was that the Federal Reserve doesn't pay for the national debt (again, it still doesn't, the Treasury does), and that the Federal Reserve is self financing.
Some how you deduced from those two statements that I support the war in Iraq, along with all the economists of the world.
I really don't understand how you jumped to those conclusions, but I can tell you that they're wrong.
I don't support the war in Iraq, I didn't support it pre-invasion, and I think major changes need to be made. Furthermore, many economists don't support the war in Iraq. Gary Becker, for instance, has said that the war will be a more complete and total failure the more the country slips into civil war. Those economists that do support the war, for example Kevin Murphy, ONLY support it if the other option was continued containment, and they are explicit about pointing out that invasion was the lesser of two already bad options.
Finally, I'd really suggest you look into some more sources for your views on the Fed. I'm not talking about finding new websites either, but do real research, spend some time in a library.
Woodrow Wilson may have later regretted the Federal Reserve, but he also had a major hand in its inception. The "Board of Governors" exists because Wilson FORCED it upon congress, he said it needed to be included in the act for him to sign it and congress listened.
Furthermore, the actual Federal Reserve act differs significantly from the initial proposal put foreword by Wall Street, which basically described a decentrallized system of loan clear houses in order to avoid future runs on banks (similar to the system England had at the time). Congress turned this into a centralized system that had control over reserve requirements (something none of the bankers wanted) as well as limited government oversight (again, something none of the bankers wanted).
In all, the passed Federal Reserve act actually more closely resembles the recommendations of the National Monetary Commission (A congressional committee created in 1908 who issued around 30 reports, all of which are on the public record) than it resembles the banker's proposals.
If you want to read more about this, I would recommend looking itno either "House of Morgan" by Ron Chernow or "A Monetary History of the United States" by Milton Friedman.
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SerratedFrond
Pinning
Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 131
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: Economist]
#6062970 - 09/14/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alright . . maybe not that interesting. lol Heres one a little more on-topic.
What role does the chairman play in the federal reserve (i.e. greenspan)
Is he a govt employee that acts as a liason between the government and the Fed? Or does he pound the gavel at the annual secret meeting at the Fed country club.
Concerning Woodrow Wilson, he may have regreted the Fed, but he DIDNT regret the league of nations . . which I think says something.
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Genesis 1:29
AsalamAlakum ~ SF
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: SerratedFrond]
#6063193 - 09/14/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SerratedFrond said:
Concerning Woodrow Wilson, he may have regreted the Fed, but he DIDNT regret the league of nations . . which I think says something.
He also didn't regret supporting the KKK. Don't forget that his quote is used to open Birth of a Nation:
"At last there had sprung into existence a great Klu Klux Klan, a vertiable empire of the South, to protect the Southern Country" -Woodrow Wilson 1915
Or how 'bout my personal favorite:
"If the colored people made a mistake in voting for me, they ought to correct it," -Woodrow Wilson 1914
There was also the time he explained to an African American delegation in DC that segregation was not a humiliation but a "privilege" that they should be thankful for. Makes you wonder how seriously he would have taken debate at the League of Nations given his views on race relations...
As for Chairman of the Fed, he presides of Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) meetings. The FOMC is kind of like the Security Council of the Fed, it has all the real power and decision making capabilities.
Anyway, FOMC meetings are classified by the government for (I think, but don't recall right now) 5 years, after which time their transcripts are made available to the public (you can actually download and read them off the Fed website).
Of course, therein lies the conundrum. Of course as soon as some people hear "The meetings are classified..." the speculation begins, but I believe the "official story" which is simply that given market reactions every time Greenspan made a speech, if the minutes were made immediately public they could cause serious market fluctuations, and the FOMC members would end up using guarded language, ultimately leading to non-existant debate and poor decisions.
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truekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny
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Re: Do you think that 9/11 was an Inside Job- please vote [Re: ZippoZ]
#9655687 - 01/21/09 10:32 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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hmm, i'm not sure what to believe
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You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.
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