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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006
#6051508 - 09/11/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Good evening. Five years ago, this date – September the 11th – was seared into America’s memory. Nineteen men attacked us with a barbarity unequaled in our history. They murdered people of all colors, creeds, and nationalities – and made war upon the entire free world. Since that day, America and her allies have taken the offensive in a war unlike any we have fought before. Today, we are safer, but we are not yet safe. On this solemn night, I have asked for some of your time to discuss the nature of the threat still before us … what we are doing to protect our Nation ... and the building of a more hopeful Middle East that holds the key to peace for America and the world.
"On Nine-Eleven, our Nation saw the face of evil. Yet on that awful day, we also witnessed something distinctly American: ordinary citizens rising to the occasion, and responding with extraordinary acts of courage. We saw courage in office workers who were trapped on the high floors of burning skyscrapers – and called home so that their last words to their families would be of comfort and love. We saw courage in passengers aboard Flight 93, who recited the 23rd Psalm – and then charged the cockpit. And we saw courage in the Pentagon staff who made it out of the flames and smoke – and ran back in to answer cries for help. On this day, we remember the innocent who lost their lives – and we pay tribute to those who gave their lives so that others might live.
"For many of our citizens, the wounds of that morning are still fresh. I have met firefighters and police officers who choke up at the memory of fallen comrades. I have stood with families gathered on a grassy field in Pennsylvania, who take bittersweet pride in loved ones who refused to be victims – and gave America our first victory in the war on terror. And I have sat beside young mothers with children who are now five-years-old – and still long for the daddies who will never cradle them in their arms. Out of this suffering, we resolve to honor every man and woman lost. And we seek their lasting memorial in a safer and more hopeful world.
"Since the horror of Nine-Eleven, we have learned a great deal about the enemy. We have learned that they are evil and kill without mercy – but not without purpose. We have learned that they form a global network of extremists who are driven by a perverted vision of Islam – a totalitarian ideology that hates freedom, rejects tolerance, and despises all dissent. And we have learned that their goal is to build a radical Islamic empire where women are prisoners in their homes, men are beaten for missing prayer meetings, and terrorists have a safe haven to plan and launch attacks on America and other civilized nations. The war against this enemy is more than a military conflict. It is the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century, and the calling of our generation.
"Our Nation is being tested in a way that we have not been since the start of the Cold War. We saw what a handful of our enemies can do with box-cutters and plane tickets. We hear their threats to launch even more terrible attacks on our people. And we know that if they were able to get their hands on weapons of mass destruction, they would use them against us. We face an enemy determined to bring death and suffering into our homes. America did not ask for this war, and every American wishes it were over. So do I. But the war is not over – and it will not be over until either we or the extremists emerge victorious. If we do not defeat these enemies now, we will leave our children to face a Middle East overrun by terrorist states and radical dictators armed with nuclear weapons. We are in a war that will set the course for this new century – and determine the destiny of millions across the world.
"For America, Nine-Eleven was more than a tragedy – it changed the way we look at the world. On September the 11th, we resolved that we would go on the offense against our enemies – and we would not distinguish between the terrorists and those who harbor or support them. So we helped drive the Taliban from power in Afghanistan. We put al Qaeda on the run, and killed or captured most of those who planned the Nine-Eleven attacks – including the man believed to be the mastermind, Khalid Sheik Mohammed. He and other suspected terrorists have been questioned by the Central Intelligence Agency – and they have provided valuable information that has helped stop attacks in America and across the world. Now these men have been transferred to Guantanamo Bay, so they can be held to account for their actions. Osama Bin Laden and other terrorists are still in hiding. Our message to them is clear: No matter how long it takes, America will find you, and we will bring you to justice.
"On September the 11th, we learned that America must confront threats before they reach our shores – whether those threats come from terrorist networks or terrorist states. I am often asked why we are in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was not responsible for the Nine-Eleven attacks. The answer is that the regime of Saddam Hussein was a clear threat. My Administration, the Congress, and the United Nations saw the threat – and after Nine-Eleven, Saddam’s regime posed a risk that the world could not afford to take. The world is safer because Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. And now the challenge is to help the Iraqi people build a democracy that fulfills the dreams of the nearly 12 million Iraqis who came out to vote in free elections last December.
"Al Qaeda and other extremists from across the world have come to Iraq to stop the rise of a free society in the heart of the Middle East. They have joined the remnants of Saddam’s regime and other armed groups to foment sectarian violence and drive us out. Our enemies in Iraq are tough and they are committed – but so are Iraqi and Coalition forces. We are adapting to stay ahead of the enemy – and we are carrying out a clear plan to ensure that a democratic Iraq succeeds.
"We are training Iraqi troops so they can defend their nation. We are helping Iraq’s unity government grow in strength and serve its people. We will not leave until this work is done. Whatever mistakes have been made in Iraq, the worst mistake would be to think that if we pulled out, the terrorists would leave us alone. They will not leave us alone. They will follow us. The safety of America depends on the outcome of the battle in the streets of Baghdad. Osama Bin Laden calls this fight “the Third World War” – and he says that victory for the terrorists in Iraq will mean America’s “defeat and disgrace forever.” If we yield Iraq to men like Bin Laden, our enemies will be emboldened ... they will gain a new safe haven ... and they will use Iraq’s resources to fuel their extremist movement. We will not allow this to happen. America will stay in the fight. Iraq will be a free nation, and a strong ally in the war on terror.
"We can be confident that our Coalition will succeed – because the Iraqi people have been steadfast in the face of unspeakable violence. And we can be confident in victory – because of the skill and resolve of America’s Armed Forces. Every one of our troops is a volunteer, and since the attacks of September the 11th, more than 1.6 million Americans have stepped forward to put on our Nation's uniform. In Iraq, Afghanistan, and other fronts in the war on terror, the men and women of our military are making great sacrifices to keep us safe. Some have suffered terrible injuries – and nearly 3,000 have given their lives. America cherishes their memory. We pray for their families. And we will never back down from the work they have begun.
"We also honor those who toil day and night to keep our homeland safe – and we are giving them the tools they need to protect our people. We have created the Department of Homeland Security … we have torn down the wall that kept law enforcement and intelligence from sharing information ... we have tightened security at our airports, seaports, and borders ... and we have created new programs to monitor enemy bank records and phone calls. Thanks to the hard work of our law enforcement and intelligence professionals, we have broken up terrorist cells in our midst, and saved American lives.
"Five years after Nine-Eleven, our enemies have not succeeded in launching another attack on our soil – but they have not been idle. Al Qaeda and those inspired by its hateful ideology have carried out terrorist attacks in more than two dozen nations. And just last month, they were foiled in a plot to blow up passenger planes headed for the United States. They remain determined to attack America and kill our citizens – and we are determined to stop them. We will continue to give the men and women who protect us every resource and legal authority they need to do their jobs.
"In the first days after the Nine-Eleven attacks, I promised to use every element of national power to fight the terrorists wherever we find them. One of the strongest weapons in our arsenal is the power of freedom. The terrorists fear freedom as much as they do our firepower. They are thrown into panic at the sight of an old man pulling the election lever … girls enrolling in school … or families worshiping God in their own traditions. They know that given a choice, people will choose freedom over their extremist ideology. So their answer is to deny people this choice by raging against the forces of freedom and moderation. This struggle has been called a clash of civilizations. In truth, it is a struggle for civilization. We are fighting to maintain the way of life enjoyed by free nations. And we are fighting for the possibility that good and decent people across the Middle East can raise up societies based on freedom, and tolerance, and personal dignity.
"We are now in the early hours of this struggle between tyranny and freedom. Amid the violence, some question whether the people of the Middle East want their freedom – and whether the forces of moderation can prevail. For sixty years, these doubts guided our policies in the Middle East. And then, on a bright September morning, it became clear that the calm we saw in the Middle East was only a mirage. Years of pursuing stability to promote peace had left us with neither. So we changed our policies, and committed America’s influence in the world to advancing freedom and democracy as the great alternatives to repression and radicalism.
"With our help, the people of the Middle East are now stepping forward to claim their freedom. From Kabul to Baghdad to Beirut, there are brave men and women risking their lives each day for the same freedoms that we enjoy. And they have one question of us: Do we have the confidence to do in the Middle East what our fathers and grandfathers accomplished in Europe and Asia? By standing with democratic leaders and reformers, by giving voice to the hopes of decent men and women, we are offering a path away from radicalism. And we are enlisting the most powerful force for peace and moderation in the Middle East: The desire of millions to be free.
"Across the broader Middle East, the extremists are fighting to prevent such a future. Yet America has confronted evil before, and we have defeated it – sometimes at the cost of thousands of good men in a single battle. When Franklin Roosevelt vowed to defeat two enemies across two oceans, he could not have foreseen D-Day and Iwo Jima – but he would not have been surprised at the outcome. When Harry Truman promised American support for free peoples resisting Soviet aggression, he could not have foreseen the rise of the Berlin Wall – but he would not have been surprised to see it brought down. Throughout our history, America has seen liberty challenged – and every time, we have seen liberty triumph with sacrifice and determination.
"At the start of this young century, America looks to the day when the people of the Middle East leave the desert of despotism for the fertile gardens of liberty – and resume their rightful place in a world of peace and prosperity. We look to the day when the nations of that region recognize that their greatest resource is not the oil in the ground – but the talent and creativity of their people. We look to the day when moms and dads throughout the Middle East see a future of hope and opportunity for their children. And when that good day comes, the clouds of war will part … the appeal of radicalism will decline ... and we will leave our children with a better and safer world. On this solemn anniversary, we rededicate ourselves to this cause. Our Nation has endured trials – and we face a difficult road ahead. Winning this war will require the determined efforts of a unified country. So we must put aside our differences, and work together to meet the test that history has given us. We will defeat our enemies … we will protect our people ... and we will lead the 21st century into a shining age of human liberty.
"Earlier this year, I traveled to the United States Military Academy. I was there to deliver the commencement address to the first class to arrive at West Point after the attacks of September the 11th. That day I met a proud mom named RoseEllen Dowdell. She was there to watch her son Patrick accept his commission in the finest Army the world has ever known. A few weeks earlier, RoseEllen had watched her other son, James, graduate from the Fire Academy in New York City. On both these days, her thoughts turned to someone who was not there to share the moment: her husband, Kevin Dowdell. Kevin was one of the 343 firefighters who rushed to the burning towers of the World Trade Center on September the 11th – and never came home. His sons lost their father that day – but not the passion for service he instilled in them. Here is what RoseEllen says about her boys, “As a mother, I cross my fingers and pray all the time for their safety – but as worried as I am, I am also proud – and I know their dad would be too.”
"Our Nation is blessed to have young Americans like these – and we will need them. Dangerous enemies have declared their intention to destroy our way of life. They are not the first to try – and their fate will be the same as those who tried before. Nine-Eleven showed us why. The attacks were meant to bring us to our knees, and they did – but not in the way the terrorists intended. Americans united in prayer ... came to the aid of neighbors in need ... and resolved that our enemies would not have the last word. The spirit of our people is the source of America’s strength. And we go forward with trust in that spirit, confidence in our purpose – and faith in a loving God who made us to be free.
"Thank you, and may God bless you."
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6051532 - 09/11/06 08:55 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6051546 - 09/11/06 08:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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forfucksake
born under punches
Registered: 07/19/06
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6051569 - 09/11/06 09:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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his speechwriters really aren't that bad. if he was a more compelling speaker, or even a more compelling person, the speech could be touching (in certain parts).
-------------------- Loki said: yes, morning wood wakes you with a start, and bus and train trips are no longer fun for quite a while --- alakona said: i like giving head because i like cock in my throat.
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: forfucksake]
#6051578 - 09/11/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I didn't bother to read it. It would make me sick and I'm trying to drink beer.
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ApJunkie
part-time Ninja
Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 2,735
Loc: Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:Loc:
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: forfucksake]
#6051616 - 09/11/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I agree, that was actually a very good tribute to September 11th, too bad the words aren't his.
bottom line: he's a twat.
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: ApJunkie]
#6051645 - 09/11/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh the speech is actually good? Well maybe I'll check it out then. Tomorrow when I'm grumpy in the morning.
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Dexter_Morgan
Towlie's Mentor
Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 6,666
Loc: higher than you
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6051654 - 09/11/06 09:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
Edited by ShroomDr (09/11/06 10:15 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Posts: 44,175
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
#6051670 - 09/11/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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This thread is actually more relevant b/c it includes the speech.
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
#6051684 - 09/11/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Don't separate your first post from a second by adding unnecessary space. Anytime someone does that I read the last part first anyway, and it makes my thumb have to roll the wheel an unnecessary and unreasonable distance on the mouse wheel, so please cut that out. Thanks much.
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demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6051779 - 09/11/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
and the building of a more hopeful Middle East that holds the key to peace for America and the world.
Why does the building of a more hopeful Middle East hold the key to peace for America and the world?
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Vvellum
Stranger
Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6051791 - 09/11/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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so?
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Vvellum]
#6051802 - 09/11/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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So be sure to vote Democratic this November, then go home, pop a beer, light a joint, and cross your fingers.
Just remember people, only the Democrats can impeach Bush. Not the Libertarians, not the Green party.
Edited by Microcosmatrix (09/11/06 10:17 PM)
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Dexter_Morgan
Towlie's Mentor
Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 6,666
Loc: higher than you
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Redstorm]
#6051845 - 09/11/06 10:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: This thread is actually more relevant b/c it includes the speech.
So, anytime i find a thread about something, that doesn't have a link to the subject matter, i should open a new thread with the link & text?
That makes sense. I'll start a new thread with a link to the 'YouTube' video footage.
It's "actually more relevant b/c it includes the video"
i was just point out a minor mistake, by a mod none the less; No need to just make up some fake excuse on why the thread was created.
-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
#6051941 - 09/11/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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How about you cut the bullshit and comment on the topic at hand. If you don't like it, click the notify button or fill out a support ticket. Otherwise, I don't want to see off-topic posts.
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Redstorm]
#6051951 - 09/11/06 11:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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God damn you like to get things done in the shortest amount of time huh? The Dems need your vote this November!
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Microcosmatrix]
#6051953 - 09/11/06 11:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm voting Libertarian.
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zorbman
blarrr
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6051957 - 09/11/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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In spite of my animosity towards the Bush administration I approached the speech with as much neutrality as I could muster.
I'll just say it was good the speech was as non-political as it could be given that we're in an election year and things have gone badly in Iraq.
I give the speech-writing a C and the President's delivery a B- (for him).
History will probably not remember this speech, but then again that was probably not the intention.
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Redstorm]
#6051967 - 09/11/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why waste your vote man? We need as many Democratic votes as we can get to get a majority in congress in order to get Bush out, or severely limit his abilities to mess up more things. Vote Libertarian some election that doesn't matter like this one obviously does. We need the Republicans to lose seats, period. Think about it man.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Microcosmatrix]
#6051969 - 09/11/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Or I can waste my vote by voting for a Democrat. You're real fucking naive if you think it's going to make a difference.
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Redstorm]
#6051980 - 09/11/06 11:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, I guess nothing will matter all that much in the long run, but I wanna see Bush hiking his ass back to Texas soon, it would make me very happy. I might even buy kegs and hire bands. Check the gathering forum at that time.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 29 days
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Microcosmatrix]
#6051987 - 09/11/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You'll be waiting until Election '08, regardless of who wins the elections this year.
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Redstorm]
#6052000 - 09/11/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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We'll see, maybe he'll have a heart attack. We might get lucky or something, but however it happens my 8-ball says he's going to be out of office early. He doesn't deserve to serve his entire stolen presidency.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: demiu5]
#6052057 - 09/11/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
demius said:
Quote:
and the building of a more hopeful Middle East that holds the key to peace for America and the world.
Why does the building of a more hopeful Middle East hold the key to peace for America and the world?
Because when the Middle East is without hope, they drag the rest of the world down with them.
-------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Microcosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Basilides]
#6052128 - 09/11/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Scared asses, they have their genies in their bottles, that's for sure.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6052167 - 09/12/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
king george said:
...
Edited by Annapurna1 (09/12/06 12:23 AM)
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Phred]
#6052196 - 09/12/06 12:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
If we do not defeat these enemies now, we will leave our children to face a Middle East overrun by terrorist states and radical dictators armed with nuclear weapons.
Is that a threat!?
Did he just threaten with nuclear weapons!?
Motherfucker, he did.
--------------------
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quiver
freedrug
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6052202 - 09/12/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i wouldnt call it a threat,common sense maybe
--------------------
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: quiver]
#6052218 - 09/12/06 12:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I personally take it as an indirect threat.
"If we don't do this...then that will happen."
I want reasoning for this claim, not intimidation.
--------------------
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6052291 - 09/12/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said: I personally take it as an indirect threat.
"If we don't do this...then that will happen."
I want reasoning for this claim, not intimidation.
Okay, here's some reasoning:
FACT: Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons FACT: The President of Iran has said Israel should be wiped off the map
So, at the very least, there's one problem that's going to happen in the future if something isn't done...
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 10 months, 13 days
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Basilides]
#6052353 - 09/12/06 02:28 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
demius said:
Quote:
and the building of a more hopeful Middle East that holds the key to peace for America and the world.
Why does the building of a more hopeful Middle East hold the key to peace for America and the world?
Because when the Middle East is without hope, they drag the rest of the world down with them.
Whenever they fuck themselves over, some jackass with money to spare starts up a campaign about how it's all the infidel's fault, and a gibbering horde of the mentally unsound rises up to slay us all.
What jews were to nazis, infidels are to militant muslims... a convenient scapegoat that lets their leaders sieze power.
-------------------- I find your lack of faith disturbing
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
#6052983 - 09/12/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
AlteredAgain said: I personally take it as an indirect threat.
"If we don't do this...then that will happen."
I want reasoning for this claim, not intimidation.
Okay, here's some reasoning:
FACT: Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons FACT: The President of Iran has said Israel should be wiped off the map
So, at the very least, there's one problem that's going to happen in the future if something isn't done...
sources of evidence to fact number one?
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Edited by AlteredAgain (09/12/06 11:03 AM)
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Economist
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6053141 - 09/12/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If Iran wasn't trying to build a nuclear weapon, then why is their current nuclear program run not just by the President and the head of the Iranian Atomic Energy Organization, but also by the heads of the Revolutionary Guard Corps and the Defense Industries Organization?
If the purpose of the nuclear program really was entirely peaceful, where are the heads of public works and utilities? What is the military doing there?
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AlteredAgain
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
#6053335 - 09/12/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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True, good perspective. Why is Iran running a nuclear program both officialy and behind the scenes? The purpose of the defense department of any government in the world is to create weapons. That's what they do. Whether they use these weapons to defend their homeland or misuse them to prey upon others, is entirely in their hands. Our problem is, we don't control any of the strings attached to this particular power. Power does not lie in the people, even in America.
Does this now mean that we have to go blow them up first?
Not in my ethics.
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Microcosmatrix
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
#6055845 - 09/13/06 12:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said:
Quote:
AlteredAgain said: I personally take it as an indirect threat.
"If we don't do this...then that will happen."
I want reasoning for this claim, not intimidation.
Okay, here's some reasoning:
FACT: Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons FACT: The President of Iran has said Israel should be wiped off the map
So, at the very least, there's one problem that's going to happen in the future if something isn't done...
You are correct. Iran will end up forcing us to choose between the preservation of Israel, or nuclear proliferation in the Arab Middle East, and the destruction of Israel. It's not all that difficult to determine what we will choose. And that's exactly why Israel got cocky last month. They know they're like our child. That's just the way it is.
It's not about wiping something off the map, it's about getting along with those around you. But I don't think the U.S. would lose much sleep turning Iran into a sea of glass. So they really better straighten the fuck up over there. I think.
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Konnrade]
#6055854 - 09/13/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said:
Quote:
Basilides said:
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demius said:
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and the building of a more hopeful Middle East that holds the key to peace for America and the world.
Why does the building of a more hopeful Middle East hold the key to peace for America and the world?
Because when the Middle East is without hope, they drag the rest of the world down with them.
Whenever they fuck themselves over, some jackass with money to spare starts up a campaign about how it's all the infidel's fault, and a gibbering horde of the mentally unsound rises up to slay us all.
What jews were to nazis, infidels are to militant muslims... a convenient scapegoat that lets their leaders sieze power.
correct. This will be the decade of con artistry.
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Hank, FTW
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Microcosmatrix]
#6055858 - 09/13/06 12:16 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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But why!?
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Microcosmatrix
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6055874 - 09/13/06 12:24 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why what?
Why stop a certified asshole from destroying an entire country?
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Dexter_Morgan
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
#6055886 - 09/13/06 12:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Economist said: If Iran wasn't trying to build a nuclear weapon, then why is their current nuclear program run not just by the President and the head of the Iranian Atomic Energy Organization, but also by the heads of the Revolutionary Guard Corps and the Defense Industries Organization?
If the purpose of the nuclear program really was entirely peaceful, where are the heads of public works and utilities? What is the military doing there?
You do not think our military was involved in our initial Nuclear developments? How about the Soviets? How about the Chinese? How about the Indians? Need I continue?
-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
#6055974 - 09/13/06 01:19 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ShroomDr said: You do not think our military was involved in our initial Nuclear developments? How about the Soviets? How about the Chinese? How about the Indians? Need I continue?
But in all those cases, the nation had a stated goal of constructing a nuclear weapon (with the possible exception of the Soviet Union, who knows if they had any publicly stated goals at all, and the US, but then again, we got it first).
The point is, Iran is claiming that they only want to develop a completely peaceful nuclear program.
Were this actually the case, then the military would not be involved and it would be run by a civilian organization. Examples of civilian-based nuclear power programs are prolific: CNEN in Brazil (from 1962-1980s, then again after 1985 with the military government inherently tying the military to nuclear development, something the elected 1985 government stopped), the MOST in South Korea, Atomenergi in Sweden, FEPC in Japan, the list goes on and on.
The point is, those nations that truly want to develop peaceful nuclear technology, nuclear reactors for power generation, create civilian agencies or field the program out to existing civilian agencies.
Meanwhile, countries that want to build nuclear weapons get the military involved.
Iran's nuclear program is overseen by the military, thus it is reasonable to assume that they are attempting to build weapons.
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AlteredAgain
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
#6056137 - 09/13/06 03:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The point is, those nations that truly want to develop peaceful nuclear technology, nuclear reactors for power generation, create civilian agencies or field the program out to existing civilian agencies.
Meanwhile, countries that want to build nuclear weapons get the military involved.
Iran's nuclear program is overseen by the military, thus it is reasonable to assume that they are attempting to build weapons.
And what are we exactly doing that is so different from their intent?
Playing police?
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Ancalagon
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Economist]
#6056283 - 09/13/06 05:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Okay, here's some reasoning:
FACT: Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons FACT: The President of Iran has said Israel should be wiped off the map
So, at the very least, there's one problem that's going to happen in the future if something isn't done...
With respect to your first fact, while it's somewhat astonishing that people haven't learned to be more conservative in using the word 'fact' after the debacle leading up to Iraq, you're likely -- though by no means definitely -- correct.
What I feel needs to be pointed out though, is that Iran is almost certainly not developing these weapons with the express intent of obliterating Israel, regardless of what their President says. Rather, having seen the difference between US action towards Iraq and US action towards North Korea, it's developing these weapons as a means of deterrence to US bellicosity.
Ahmadinejad's rhetoric may have led you to believe that he's completely irrational, but I can assure you this is far from the case. He's fully cognizant of the fact that obliterating Israel and/or giving Nuclear Weapons to terrorists -- even if doing so would make him unbelievably content in his ideal world -- is far from in the best interest of his country.
It is my belief, then, that most of his rhetoric is nothing more than bluster designed to curry favor among both his own people and, perhaps more importantly, the Arab Street. Ahmadinejad is engaged in an unbelievably high stakes gamble. He's banking on the West having neither the resources nor the public will to back up its threats, and to this point it looks as if he'll have gambled correctly.
If Israel believes that Iran having Nuclear Weapons is completely antithetical to its national interest, it is its sovereign prerogative to do something about it. But, contrary to what most every politician would have you believe, Israel's interests are NOT the same as America's interests. I believe it is both in the best interest of itself and in the best interest of the Middle East at large for America to not intervene militarily in Iran. The consequences that would redound from such an action are beyond anyone's ability to predict, but given America's already precarious position abroad, it is beyond me how how we would deal with a newly belligerent Iran.
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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RosettaStoned
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Ancalagon]
#6057146 - 09/13/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Good post. I agree they are likely following NKs lead on the nuke issue. They have seen when the US thinks you might have a nuke we won't fuck with ya. Thus it's only logical after seeing iraq, that iran must now develop/buy nuclear tech to protect against american military action. If they stop developing all nuke tech, it wouldn't matter, we would still say they are hiding it (see iraq). So they are in a no-win situation, damned if they do, damned if they don't so to speak. There is no way to shed their image and "follow the rules" at this point.
Isn't it great how we are "safer" all these years later after 9/11?
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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Re: President Bush's speech of September 11, 2006 [Re: Ancalagon]
#6057507 - 09/13/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ancalagon said: What I feel needs to be pointed out though, is that Iran is almost certainly not developing these weapons with the express intent of obliterating Israel, regardless of what their President says. Rather, having seen the difference between US action towards Iraq and US action towards North Korea, it's developing these weapons as a means of deterrence to US bellicosity.
That may or may not be true.
Personally, I didn't care when Pakistan and India developed nuclear weapons because it really didn't matter. They both bave governments that the people of their nations more-or-less support that are dedicated to admirable aims, like the benefit of their populace, and even aims of developing an open society (even if Pakistan is too corrupt and India is too socialist).
Iran doesn't match this at all. The stated goal of Iran (and it's clearly supported by a majority of the populace, given the relative stability in Iran compared with other nations) involves a convoluted intersection of Sharia Law, conservative interpretations of Islam, and a hate of Judaism.
Maybe their decisions right now have only to do with survival, I don't know. I certainly never advocated "militant action" against Iran.
However, I do think that President Bush has a point when he says that this is a problem that won't go away if we don't deal with it.
Iran having nuclear weapons is not going to help anyone. Now, why we aren't focusing on forcing Iran to open their doors to trade, instead of bullshitting around with their nuclear program, I don't know. But if we don't take steps to force changes in Iran's goals, there's no way a nuclear armed Iran is good for the future.
Maybe they won't attack Israel in the next 10 years, but what about the next 20? The next 50? Once Iran has nuclear weapons, they're not likely to just "go away".
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