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Stranger Registered: 06/25/01 Posts: 5,715 |
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Army shuns system to combat RPGs
Experts agree it might help save lives, so why isn’t it in the field? By Adam Ciralsky, Lisa Myers & the NBC News Investigative Unit Updated: 9:16 p.m. CT Sept 5, 2006 WASHINGTON - Rocket-propelled grenades, or RPGs, are a favorite weapon of insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are cheap, easy to use and deadly. RPGs have killed nearly 40 Americans in Afghanistan and more than 130 in Iraq, including 21-year-old Pvt. Dennis Miller. “They were in Ramadi, and his tank was hit with a rocket-propelled grenade,” says Miller’s mother, Kathy. “Little Denny never knew what hit him.” Sixteen months ago, commanders in Iraq began asking the Pentagon for a new system to counter RPGs and other anti-tank weapons. Last year, a special Pentagon unit thought it found a solution in Israel — a high-tech system that shoots RPGs out of the sky. But in a five-month exclusive investigation, NBC News has learned from Pentagon sources that that help for U.S. troops is now in serious jeopardy. The system is called “Trophy,” and it is designed to fit on top of tanks and other armored vehicles like the Stryker now in use in Iraq. Trophy works by scanning all directions and automatically detecting when an RPG is launched. The system then fires an interceptor — traveling hundreds of miles a minute — that destroys the RPG safely away from the vehicle. The Israeli military, which recently lost a number of tanks and troops to RPGs, is rushing to deploy the system. Trophy is the brainchild of Rafael, Israel’s Armament Development Authority, which has conducted more than 400 tests and found that the system has “well above [a] 90 percent” probability of killing RPGs and even more sophisticated anti-tank weapons, according to reserve Col. Didi Ben Yoash, who helped develop the system. Ben Yoash says he is “fully confident” that Trophy can save American lives. And officials with the Pentagon’s Office of Force Transformation (OFT) agree. Created in 2001 by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, OFT acts as an internal “think tank” for the Pentagon and is supposed to take a more entrepreneurial — and thereby less bureaucratic — approach to weapons procurement and other defense issues, and to get help to troops in the field more quickly. OFT officials subjected Trophy to 30 tests and found that it is “more than 98 percent” effective at killing RPGs. An official involved with those tests told NBC that Trophy “worked in every case. The only anomaly was that in one test, the Trophy round hit the RPG’s tail instead of its head. But according to our test criteria, the system was 30 for 30.” As a result, OFT decided to buy several Trophies — which cost $300,000-$400,000 each — for battlefield trials on Strykers in Iraq next year. That plan immediately ran into a roadblock: Strong opposition from the U.S. Army. Why? Pentagon sources tell NBC News that the Army brass considers the Israeli system a threat to an Army program to develop an RPG defense system from scratch. The $70 million contract for that program had been awarded to an Army favorite, Raytheon. Raytheon’s contract constitutes a small but important part of the Army’s massive modernization program called the Future Combat System (FCS), which has been under fire in Congress on account of ballooning costs and what critics say are unorthodox procurement practices. Col. Donald Kotchman, who heads the Army’s program to develop an RPG defense, acknowledges that Raytheon’s system won’t be ready for fielding until 2011 at the earliest. That timeline has Trophy’s supporters in the Pentagon up in arms. As one senior official put it, “We don’t really have a problem if the Army thinks it has a long-term solution with Raytheon. But what are our troops in the field supposed to do for the next five or six years?” Kotchman, however, says the Army is doing everything prudent to provide for the protection and safety of U.S. forces and insists the Israeli system is not ready to be deployed by the U.S. “Trophy has not demonstrated its capability to be successfully integrated into a system and continue to perform its wartime mission,” he says. That claim, however, is disputed by other Pentagon officials as well as internal documents obtained by NBC News. In an e-mail, a senior official writes: “Trophy is a system that is ready — today... We need to get this capability into the hands of our warfighters ASAP because: (1) It will save lives!” Officials also tell NBC News that according to the Pentagon’s own method of measuring a weapons system’s readiness, Trophy is “between a 7 and an 8” out of a possible score of 9. Raytheon’s system is said to be a “3.” So why would the Army block a solution that might help troops? “There are some in the Army who would be extremely concerned that if the Trophy system worked, then the Army would have no need to go forward with the Raytheon system and the program might be terminated,” says Steven Schooner, who teaches procurement law at both George Washington University and the Army’s Judge Advocate General’s School. Trophy’s supporters inside the Pentagon are more blunt. As one senior official told NBC News, “This debate has nothing, zero, to do with capability or timeliness. It’s about money and politics. You’ve got a gigantic program [FCS] and contractors with intertwined interests. Trophy was one of the most successful systems we’ve tested, and yet the Army has ensured that it won’t be part of FCS and is now trying to prevent it from being included on the Strykers” that OFT planned to send to Iraq. For families of soldiers like Denny Miller, any delay in getting help to the troops is unthinkable. As Miller’s mother, Kathy, put it, “Do they have children over there? Do they have husbands or wives over there? They need to sit back and look at it maybe from a different angle. I just think it's ridiculous!” The Pentagon is now trying to interest the Marine Corps in testing Trophy. But because of Army opposition, there are currently no plans to send the system to Iraq. Wednesday on “NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams”: Did the U.S. Army stack the deck to favor Raytheon at the expense of our troops? URL: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14686871/ -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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Looking for the Answer Registered: 05/04/06 Posts: 3,912 |
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"killing RPG's"
What kind of mickey mouse article is this, and yes I see your source. Maybe America is blocking it, because they are the ones who will have to foot the bill. -------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Stranger Registered: 06/25/01 Posts: 5,715 |
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Actually it's called the industrial military complex. I donno if you know what that is though...
And you really think that a brand new system made from scratch will be cheaper? Not to mention it will be completed by 2011. So our troops will keep getting killed by cheap RPGs because politicians and military contractors will get more American tax money. By the way, US has a history of buying weapons from Israel. Israel has the most advanced weapons in the world and Jews are 22% of Nobel prize winners so they tend to make awesome discoveries and sweet gadgets. The contract given to an American company is 70 million and considering the fact that a lot of US contractors end up getting more money, well, it will prolly be way over 70 million in a few years. And yes, the government is blocking it because Americans will end up paying more to our own company. This whole situation is actually similar to the bullshit concerning body armor for our troops. A company received a contract from the military and made shitty armor. Then US troops and their families started buying their own armor from a different company and yea.... the government didn't like that and neither did the company that made the shitty armor. -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again" Edited by downforpot (09/08/06 03:38 PM)
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Growery is Better Registered: 01/10/06 Posts: 8,752 Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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"By the way, US has a history of buying weapons from Israel. Israel has the most advanced weapons in the world"
other way around --------------------
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Stranger Registered: 06/25/01 Posts: 5,715 |
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Yea, I know that US sells Israel weapons but Israel also sells us weapons. The fighter jets that US sold them are actually better than now then before we sold them the jets, LOL. They do a good job at modifying our weapons and making them much much better.
There is actually a new Israeli rifle out that is a lot better than the m16. Also, the corner shot is currently being bought by the US army and used by our special forces, I think. Here's the corner shot, it is fucking sweet. http://hackedgadgets.com/2006/07/16/crazy-weapons/ -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again" Edited by downforpot (09/08/06 03:42 PM)
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Looking for the Answer Registered: 05/04/06 Posts: 3,912 |
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Get this strait. Israel does not "buy" weapons from the USA. They suck them out of the USA via parasitic actions. They own the media, and if politicians don't pander to them, it hurts their careers severely. It is not because "they are our friends, our allies". Of course, they are in a strategic position, but they were also given that position.
Don't you think it is the least bit odd that Israel receives the most foreign aid from the USA? Also, donations to them are tax deductible. I bet donations to Canada are not tax deductible, and we are a much more valuable ally. We provide a lot of trade, and we send them TONS of energy. I know, it's a all just a crazy conspiracy theory, but then again so was secret CIA prisons. It is true that Israel develops some good weapons, but not with out US funding. America should make Israel its 51st state ffs. -------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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I watch Fox News ![]() Registered: 03/23/06 Posts: 2,946 |
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Without any good Christian Crusader organizations around these days, I think having a bunch of zionist Jews in the mid east to help control Islamic terrorism is a good idea. Jews were always in the mid east even before there were any muslims. Israel is actually the only country in the mid east that has a right to exist. The other countries are controlled by muslim invaders.
-------------------- http://www.theamericanright.com/ http://www.cnbc.com/id/15838446 http://www.climatedepot.com
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Stranger Registered: 06/25/01 Posts: 5,715 |
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Quote: Actually a lot of congressmen want USA to sell weapons to Israel. Here's how it works: Congress man has constituents that work at a factory making airplanes, takes, guns, etc. Those contituents want him to get contracts from the US government. So the US citizens make the guns, tanks, etc. and get paid and then they sell it to Israel which mostly uses US aid to buy the weapons. Quote: Ok, that is the conspiracy theory... No1 owns the media, people might influence it but no1 owns it. Quote: So why can't we give a major ally more money? Quote: That wasn't a conspiracy theory, that was a leak and everyone knew it. There's a difference between some nutcase making up stories and a person from our own government leaking shit that should be kept under wraps. Quote: We don't need to make it our state, kinda like Puerto Rico, except a bit different. I am not really sure about all the details but Puerto Rico is not a state but recieves A LOT of benefits from the USA and doesn't have to pay taxes, lol. Anyway, what do you think about the US government blocking the sale of a cheaper defense system in favour of a 70+ million dollar contract that won't be finished till 2011 and our troops will keep on dying? Quote: I actually kinda wish that Islam conquered the world then maybe there wouldn't be any damn wars. Those fuckers conquered the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe in no time at all. I honeslty don't care about Sharia law because I am not gay and not a woman and I can live without drugs if my life depends on it. As for the gays, the women, the druggies, fuck em. The same goes for Christians and other religions. Some will convert and others will be stuck in second class. I'll probably renounce my Jewish heritage and convert to Islam. Or I'll embrace my heritage and fight the Muslims like the Jews in Israel and like the Jews during Roman times. -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again" Edited by downforpot (09/08/06 07:48 PM)
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I watch Fox News ![]() Registered: 03/23/06 Posts: 2,946 |
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Quote: There would be a lot more violence because of all the muslims fighting each other. The economies of the world would be ruined because of their stone age belief system. Millions would starve. ESCAPING ARAB FAILURE By RALPH PETERS April 23, 2004 -- WE shouldn't be discouraged by the recent round of violence in Iraq. It was predictable. But there were two disheartening signs: * We should be troubled that, in this bloody month, none of the insurgents waved an alternative constitution - unless we count their perversion of the Koran. None of those violent men is fighting for freedom - they're fighting to strangle liberty in the cradle. They are, without exception, forces of reaction, not liberation, no matter how madly al-Jazeera twists the facts. * Nor did the general Arab population or its leaders take a public stand against those who would renew their oppression. And those who will not defend their own freedom do not deserve to be defended by others. Operation Iraqi Freedom has been, among other things, an attempt to give Arabs hope for a better future. The ultimate outcome won't be known for years, but we must prepare ourselves for the possibility that the Arabs are going to fail themselves again. With sufficient troops, we can force Iraq's Arabs to behave. But we can't force them to succeed. Ultimately, Iraq is not a test of the limits of American power. When necessary, we can do whatever must be done for our security and prosperity. Our use of force, in Iraq and elsewhere, has been remarkably - even foolishly - restrained. If Iraq collapses into medieval fantasies and blood feuds, we still may be proud of having given this crippled civilization a last, great chance to heal itself. We've made mistakes, but their impact is minor compared to the unwillingness of Iraq's Arabs, Sunni or Shi'a, to build a free and civil society of their own. In the United States, campus-generated political correctness was never more than a joke - capable of turning somber conservatives purple but unable to alter anything that matters. The far more dangerous form of political correctness is that which prevails in the dream-world of diplomacy: We pretend that all civilizations have equal merit. But they don't. It's time to face up to the functional and moral collapse of the Arab world - if we can't describe the problem honestly, we shall never deal with it effectively. Arab civilization has failed. Disguised in part by the trappings of oil wealth, the Middle East has become humanity's sinkhole, less promising, if richer, than Africa. But no facade of garish hotels in the hollow states that line the Persian Gulf, and no amount of full-page advertisements funded by the Saudi government, can hide the truth any longer: The Arab Middle East has become the world's first entirely parasitical culture; all it does is to imitate poorly, consume voraciously, spit hatred, export death and create nothing. Arab civilization offers its people no promising future, only rhetoric about a past whose achievements have been as exaggerated as they were impermanent. The present is a bloody, heartless muddle. For all the oil wealth and expatriate university degrees, for all the hired-in expertise and Western "engagement," Arab civilization has degenerated to a point where it provides the rest of humanity nothing useful of its own design - while offering its own citizens only a culture of blame, corruption and lethargy. It's a matter of culture, not race. In the free atmosphere of America, Arabs do as well as anyone else. All populations have their share of talent - but the oppressive environment of the Middle East enervates those individuals it does not crush entirely. Iraq has been given a chance to break free of the thrall of a bankrupt culture, to establish a rule-of-law democratic government observant of human rights. But the chances are increasingly good that Iraq's Arabs will fail to achieve and maintain even minimal standards of good governance. The time has not yet come, but, contrary to the sort of diplomatic wisdom that so long protected Saddam, we can walk away if Iraq's Arabs refuse to help themselves. And we can break up the country to protect the Kurds - a far better solution than turning Iraq over to the venal brokers of the United Nations. The failure of Arab civilization in our time is the greatest such disaster in mankind's history. And, bitter though we find the proposition, the failure is so colossal that it cannot be neatly contained. Whether in Iraq today or elsewhere tomorrow, we cannot fully extract ourselves from this problem simply because our enemies won't let go. If Iraq chooses failure, we can leave. But we'll be back, somewhere in the Middle East. Because, as we saw on 9/11, the Middle East will continue to come to us. Blame is the opium of the Arabs, and the sweetest blame for their failures is that directed at the United States (and, of course, Israel). It is our power itself, not its uses, that enrages Arabs trapped in their self-made weakness. The oft-cited examples of the Arab world's problems, from a lack of interest in secular education and a poor work ethic to staggering corruption and the oppression of women, are symptoms, not root causes, of Arab failure. Past a certain analytical point, we come up against the wall of our own taboos - we cannot admit that the psychological premises of an entire civilization might be dysfunctional. Arab failure isn't about that which has been done to the Middle East, but that which the Middle East has done to itself. Iraq still has a chance, if a slimmer one than we had hoped. But even if Iraq's Arabs disappoint our ambitions, our efforts will have been worthy and our losses not in vain. Intervention was unavoidable, whatever the critics say. Continued passivity in the face of the Middle East's implosion would only have made the price higher in the end. We all would be better off were the Arabs to surprise us by building healthy, prosperous, modern societies. We would be foolish not to wish them well. But we would be equally foolish not to prepare ourselves for the consequences of their accelerating failure. Ralph Peters is the author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace." http://www.nypost.com/seven/04232004/postopinion/opedcolumnists/19362.htm -------------------- http://www.theamericanright.com/ http://www.cnbc.com/id/15838446 http://www.climatedepot.com
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Stranger Registered: 06/25/01 Posts: 5,715 |
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Not exactly man. Islamic Empires used to be much more power than other nations and countries. It all went to shit when the religious leaders got too much power. What we need to do is kill all the religious leaders in power, especially that faggot in Iran who uses the Iranian president as a puppet.
And yea, we really need to get the Muslims up to speed. They have been stuck in the stone age ever since their Empires started to crumble plus we basically humiliated them when our armies slaughtered their troops like cattle because they were still using cavalry to attack western troops armed with guns. -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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Exposer of Truth Registered: 08/13/03 Posts: 13,673 Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN Last seen: 7 years, 12 days |
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This has got to be the most simplest diatribe i have ever heard.
Quote: Uhh not exactly, Islamic Empires were consolidated by the Ottoman Turks, most of itleast, because of the Sykes-Picot agreement arab territory was divied up between Allied powers, France recieved Syria, Britain recieved Palestine and areas around it. Because of this action the conflict with Islam has been rising especially with the power of the Muslim Brotherhood societies. Quote: You need a serious history lesson. If your referring to WWI then your completely wrong. T.E Lawrence perhaps the greatest military tactician, used modern military tactics with nomadic arab people against the Ottomans, he completely open sourced his military by including all people with axes to grind against the turks, he practiced Partial Systems Disruption by limiting the reinforcements of turkish rails, Modern military tactics achieved victory. Unfortunately T.E Lawrence also saw what the threat of Sykes-Picot and the promise of a independent arab state promised to his fighters, were turned into Colonies by the allied victors. The Treaty of Versaille brought us WWII and massive arab hate.
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Looking for the Answer Registered: 05/04/06 Posts: 3,912 |
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OK, I respect your guys opinion(down4pot and ludd) but, can you not see how it is harmful to the USA to support Israel like this. They are alienating themselves from the world, with no gains.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Servent ofWisdom Registered: 02/10/06 Posts: 7,059 Loc: Crown and Heart Last seen: 12 years, 11 months |
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Expect a long winded dribble that doesn't really address anything you've just said.
-------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Stranger Registered: 06/25/01 Posts: 5,715 |
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Quote: I was talking about past Islamic Empires which were prosperous but then went to shit when religious leaders gained power and started building more mosques and shit instead of focusing on research. Quote: You still keep thinking that the only reason Muslims hate the US is because we support Israel. The west HUMILIATED THEM. Their empires fell while the western empires grew. They want to finish the job that Muhammad started and apparently many people don't even know that. -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again" Edited by downforpot (09/09/06 12:02 PM)
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Towlie's Mentor Registered: 02/09/05 Posts: 6,666 Loc: higher than you |
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Quote: You mean before, European and US imperialism? Before the imperialist installed & protected puppet governments, and supported oil & canal friendly Saud & Egyptian regimes! -------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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Towlie's Mentor Registered: 02/09/05 Posts: 6,666 Loc: higher than you |
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Quote: A truly ignorant statement. I guess, by your logic then, every person in America wants all the people in Africa dead. Because the KKK originated in America, and they hate NEGROS. America = Death to AFRICA Just plain INGNORANT
-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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Stranger Registered: 06/25/01 Posts: 5,715 |
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Quote: Yea, before. I guess you don't know what happened before the west gained power. Quote: Ok, now you are not making any sense. Al Qaeda and Iran want to establish a new caliphate and finish what Muhammad started. And good job comparing KKK to them, LOL. KKK ain't shit, they are powerless biggots with nothing left and their numbers are dropping. Don't compare KKK to the Fundamentalist Muslims. -------------------- http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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