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Invisiblequiver
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: leery11]
    #6048416 - 09/10/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

its mainly moderate muslims who emigrate/flee their homelands and of course the fanatics are going to want to get inside our countries to chase them down and disrupt our peaceful ways so i dont see how you cant see that that could be a planned conspiracy on their part

also if the peaceful muslims rioted after 911 as if that act was a call for all to start the jihad war they know they would be murdered by everyone/anyone through martial law,they arent that stupid

the taliban and fanatics want to keep their people oppressed because they are making money and making sure they stay in power by ruling with an iron fist

our governments are sort of the same with the bs laws to oppress us but ofcourse we have rights and laws to stop that or at least try and terrorism is a last resort by any oppressed people but this is the thing....if my government was opressing me to the point of despair i wouldnt go to the country thats trying to help us and blow up their innocents to make the headlines for the cause,i'd terrorize the politicians who terrorized me


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Offline76degrees
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: leery11]
    #6049094 - 09/11/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
Quote:

quiver said:
our system,freedom,equality and way of life is what they hate regardless of who governs us






You can have many opinions on this issue, but this is one opinion I must heatedly contest.

THEY HATE US BECAUSE WE BOMB THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's that simple. But now the question is, who bombed us? It's funny that they did something so super sophisticated and close to impossible to pull off as 9/11..... yet there are millions of arabs in America and since then, even in the aftermath, even those politically against us have not done a single thing.

You would think if they hated us so much they would have started rioting immediately after the towers fell, blowing up things and shooting random people. Do you realize how much more damage that would do than 9/11 ever would have? 9/11 is purely psychological and has nothing in particular to do with trying to kill Americans, aside from the ones that unfrotunately died.

Now you can spin however you want, who can ever be right..... I'm just thinking, if they "hate us for our freedom" why are they moving here at any chance they get so they can be "free" and why do the many "splinter cells" sit on their asses when they could start anarchy by just running around with guns and turning America into a modern day Israel.

The only people taking our freedom away, our equality away, is the US government. Now, do radical Islamic extremists dislike equality? Damn right they do. If you are looking to point a finger at an entity that is DELIBERATELY quaffing equality through terror..... you are looking in the wrong place.

also many good old redneck boys hate equality just as much, and can harbor just as much fascism in their hearts as any middle easterner. anti-black racism is still running rampant in the shadows and sometimes permeating through into law enforcement in various rural communities..... there is plenty of anti-gay hatred, and becuase of 9/11 a good deal of anti-intellectualism.

Sheep are sheep. There are many Americans who, if America were in "anarchy" or in a state of turmoil, would probably become "extremists" and I don't mean the left winged, I mean the right wingers freaking out and attacking arabs and all sorts of things....... its just that the thing is we have to look at extremes

The mid east is sooo much more violent than here. So the "extremists" have a chance to be violent, whereas our extremists don't.

But please, terrorism is a reaction TO fascism! Just look at the nations where there are so many "terrorists" ....... very cruel oppressive places, with much more violence than America has. They exist because of fascism. Can we really rectify this by creating anarchy and civil war in Iraq, and more totalitarianism in America itself!!!!

we just need to learn to chill out and be peaceful. police create hippies and hippies create police. The more one pulls the more one pushes and then you eventually have a mess.




Very nice. I was just about to make the point that I'm more afraid of my own "control freak" government than some fanatic hiding in the hills of Afghanistan. It's obvious the right allowed 9/11 to happen. It justified and swept through everything they set out to do. Anyone who can't stomach that is either batting for the right-wing or has their head so far up their arse they'll never see the light... usually both!

And as far as all the conspiracy theroies go... well most of them are ludicrous at best... like I said, the only hand our governmnet played in the disaster was allowing it to happen.


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The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.

Edited by 76degrees (09/11/06 06:58 AM)

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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: 76degrees]
    #6049106 - 09/11/06 07:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yep, and unfortunatley those that know what's going on but are battling for the right are the heads of the richest and most powerful corporations in America.

They, of course, need Bush for profit.


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: beatnicknick]
    #6049114 - 09/11/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Last time I checked, I have not seen the United States Government, saw someones head off with a dull blade, videotape it, and post it on the internet.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6049118 - 09/11/06 07:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your comment does not even relate to the discussion at hand. Last time I checked Iraq never tried invading America on the claim we have nuclear weapons (which we do) and the once it won changed its story to "Oh we want the Americans to be free" meanwhile they have blown vast parts of your country up and created a civil war in America.

Ther, my comment is just as valid as yours.

I gather you haven't actually read any of these posts- you saw "28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job" and you mindlessly without any kind of reasoning or research defend the government by accusing the enemy of being "more evil".


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.

Edited by beatnicknick (09/11/06 07:25 AM)

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Invisiblequiver
freedrug
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #6049196 - 09/11/06 08:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Last time I checked, I have not seen the United States Government, saw someones head off with a dull blade, videotape it, and post it on the internet.




these guys expect us to accept that headlopping is ok if youre only doing it to westerners,they never cry foul when they see that shit live but oh my oh my how they are all angry far left warriors(sorry for the contradiction) and experts on what the 'evil' right has done but ofcourse they dont believe conspiracy theories unless ofcourse it fits their bullshit theories..go figure :rolleyes:


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Economist]
    #6049486 - 09/11/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

downlowfunk said:
just a message to you.. watch Terror Storm, Watch Loose Change, Watch 9/11 the road to tyranny. check out http://www.infowars.com http://www.loosechange911.com. another reallly good one is.

http://www.pumpitout.com



I hope you know that those are all crap.

For an explanation of why they're crap, please check out:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html -The Popular Mechanics article that debunks the 9/11 conspiracies,

http://www.debunking911.com/ (I think the url says it all)

Also, just check the wikipedia site for Loose Change, where I quote:
"The original release of Loose Change Second Edition had several factual inaccuracies which have been corrected in the recut Second Edition" (you can read this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_%28video%29#Factual_inaccuracies )

I glad they took the time to remove completely incorrect cacts for the re-cut version...

Once you take a look at actual scientific evidence (as opposed to grainy pictures supplemented with conjecture) it becomes fairly obvious that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are quite a pant-load




can you explain how WTC7 came down?

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OfflineGSxx83
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: ApJunkie]
    #6049516 - 09/11/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ApJunkie said:
I never said it wasn't

I was just saying you're an idiot for believing that the government would want to bomb itself




We did it with Cuba.

We did it with Pearl Harbor.

Trust me. I can definitly understand how many people dont beleive these possibilities, BUT it has happened in the past, and when all tthe right information is presented, it then becomes VERY likely to be true.

If some info comes your way that makes you change your mind, cool - we will agree with similar theories.
If not though, your 100% free to have your opinions as well. In the end, the truth is the truth, and no one really knows.

But i for one, think that the US iss very capable of bombing itself.

it all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$.

we the people think we are special. We arent. The higher powers use us as pawns.

Just my 2 cents. But for the record, eveyrone is free to think as they want. And i respect your opinions whether i agree or not.

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OfflineViveka
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Vvellum]
    #6049933 - 09/11/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)




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Invisiblequiver
freedrug
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: GSxx83]
    #6051010 - 09/11/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GSxx83 said:
Quote:





We did it with Pearl Harbor.

Trust me.

Just my 2 cents.




1: unfuckingbelieveable
2:i do,as far as i could throw you
3:it's over priced
:smirk:


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: exclusive58]
    #6052270 - 09/12/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
:lol: Anyone who's done a slightest job of personal investigation would know that this article is a joke. First of all, it presents straw man arguments, it debunks a few theories that have already been debunked by 9/11 truth activists, and it gives the false impression that these claims, several of which are clearly absurd, represent the heart of the challenges to the official story.

And second, The article gives no hint of the put options on the targeted airlines, warnings received by government and corporate officials, complicit behavior by top officials, obstruction of justice by a much larger group, or obvious frauds in the official story.

Take a look at this for a more comprehensive analyze of this article showing its far from being conclusive.
Popular Mechanic's deceptive smear against 9/11 truth




Are you kidding me?

The major complaints against Popular Mechanics fall into 2 categories:
1) Not all conspiracy theories were considered

This is a RIDICULOUS avenue of attack.  Furthermore, your own support of the remaining "valid claims" in "Loose Change" suggests hypocricy if you buy into this attack.  It's okay for "Loose Change" to miss some points, but if the Popular Mechanics article failed to consider something, well, then let's throw the whole thing out!

Clearly the real straw-man here is this attack on the Popular Mechanics article

2) Popular Mechanics misrepresented the the "major claims" of the conspiracy theorists

This is an equally ridiculous claim because it implies that the 9/11 conspiracy movement is somehow unified enough to have put forward differentiably "stronger" points or "mainstream" claims.

The fact of the matter is this is not true.  Even if this own thread there are conspiracy theorists telling each other that they detract from the "cause" with their "ludicrous" views or theories.

This just goes further to prove that there is no unified belief among 9/11 conspiracy theorists and that this avenue of attack on the Popular Mechanics article is as ridiculous as the first avenue of attack was.

Quote:


Me too, but alot of what they didn't remove remain valid points, with questions that NEED to be answered. There needs to be an INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION.



What "valid points" like the ridiculous Put-Option claims?

It's been proven time and again that the put options were part of an investment hedging strategy executed by an American-based investment paper, a strategy that was complete with PURCHASES of the very stock they were buying options for.  This ultimately has NOTHING to do with 9/11, and yet it keeps coming up again and again.

Even if you fail to believe this explanation because one of it's sources is the official investigation, the trades themselves are on record and easily verifiable.  The fact of the matter is that the put-option buys have been explained to death and yet conspiracy nuts refuse to believe this...

Why?

Could it be because the conspiracy nuts are just that: NUTS?

People who will not listen to reason, no matter where it comes from.  All the investigations in the world can take place, and nothing will ever come of it.

Consider this:
Quote:

The Hearst-owned Popular Mechanics magazine takes aim at the 9/11 Truth Movement (without ever acknowledging it by that name) with a cover story in its March 2005 edition.




The opening to the anti-Popular Mechanics "article".

What does it matter who owns Popular Mechanics?  Are we now suggesting that all of Heart Publications are complicit?  Why was that detail even included, except, of course, to call up memories of past conspiracies involving the US Government and Hearst-holdings?

That's how these people operate, they combine random unrelated information with ill-thought out conjecture, and there is nothing that will ever satisfy them...

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Vvellum]
    #6052278 - 09/12/06 01:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
can you explain how WTC7 came down?




Sure, it was in the Popular Mechanics article, the importan part being:

Quote:


Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately 10 stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors--along with the building's unusual construction--were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.




Of course the conspiracy theorists attack this largely because they say the NIST report uses "guarded language" so OBVIOUSLY it's bull.

Right.

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Offlinekotik
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Economist]
    #6052382 - 09/12/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

fuck popular mechanics... havent you seen the video of the owner of WTC7 saying on camera, he had the building pulled? This does not need a conspiracy theory, or any other theory to explain... its put in plain english.

http://www.wtc7.net/pullit.html


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Economist]
    #6052900 - 09/12/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

ok thanks. now, can you point me to any other example of a similiar size building collapsing due to fire? surely, WTC7 is not the only building in the entire history of civilization to do this.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Vvellum]
    #6053121 - 09/12/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
ok thanks. now, can you point me to any other example of a similiar size building collapsing due to fire? surely, WTC7 is not the only building in the entire history of civilization to do this.




This is a common conspiracy theorist tactic: pointing to evidence that does not exist.

You want to suggest that the WTC7 collapse was somehow "different" from other building collapses: you prove it.

Show me evidence of other buildings of similar size and construction that have *not* collapsed after sustaining the kind of damage that WTC7 did. Damage matching Fire Captail Boyle's description (available here: http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyle.html ), which means a hole 20-stories tall in at least one side of the building, with fire having caught on "about a third" of the exposed floors.

Show me other buildings that have sustained this degree of damage and *not* collapsed.

Go ahead, you act like the proof is out there, so find it.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Economist]
    #6053664 - 09/12/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I find the collapse of WTC7 odd. I have seen footage of buildings on fire collapse and buildings with extensive structural damage collapse, but never in on itself in such a uniformly clean and timely manner.

here are other examples of fires just as great (if not greater) than the fire that supposedly collapsed WTC7 in such a spectacular way. None of these buildings collapsed like WTC7 did.

Am I correct in assuming you cannot find one example of a building collapsing due to fire in the same fashion as the WTC7?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Vvellum]
    #6053774 - 09/12/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I find the collapse of WTC7 odd. I have seen footage of buildings on fire collapse and buildings with extensive structural damage collapse, but never in on itself in such a uniformly clean and timely manner.

here are other examples of fires just as great (if not greater) than the fire that supposedly collapsed WTC7 in such a spectacular way. None of these buildings collapsed like WTC7 did.




So, what you're saying is, there are videos of different buildings, with different structural make-ups, and of different sizes than WTC7 that collapsed in different was? And those videos are also of buildings that didn't have 20-story tall gashes carved in their sides prior to catching fire, you know, like what happened to WTC7?

Boy, I guess that proves everything.

Quote:

Am I correct in assuming you cannot find one example of a building collapsing due to fire in the same fashion as the WTC7?




And now we reach the inherent hypocrisy of the 9/11 conspiracy nuts.

On the one hand you point to irrelevent evidence in support of the conspiracy (i.e. fires in buildings of differing structural composistion and size), on the other hand, I know you're not going to like the evidence I have, and you'll probably claim it's irrelevent, but I'll show it to you anyway and let you decide whether you want to be a hypocrite or not.

First:
The collapse WAS NOT "neat and timely". Looking at photos you can clearly see that the building listed to the south-east and collapsed in that direction. This is especially apparent in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4h from-last photos at the bottom of this page: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

Second:
As pointed out above, none of the so-called "relevant" building fires are actually relevant. None of them began with a disaster causing a 20-story hole in the base of the building, and the associated initial structural damage. Furthermore, many of them (as pointed out above) are of considerably different design and size when compared with WTC 7.

Third:
I believe that the evidence of steel-framed building collapse is already out there. I know that those who have taken time to debunk the conspiracy theories have pointed out collapses in McCormick Place and Pennsylvania's Sight and Sound Theatre.

Now, here's where the character lies: If the reply to this is that the collapse of McCormick Place and the Sight and Sound Theatre are irrelevent, well that's hypocrisy because the evidence provided of a "non-neat-and-timely" collapse is every bit as irrelevent.

The only proper rebuttal would be to show evidence of a building that had recieved significant initial structural damage (why that 20-story hole keeps being ignored, I don't know) had a major fire that burned for at least 6 hours across at least 6 floors (using the rougly 1/3 of the 20 exposed floors were on fire estimate provided by the fire captain) and was of roughly the same size and construction type as WTC 7.

I'm betting this can't be shown, and I've yet to see anything to convince me otherwise.

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OfflineViveka
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Economist]
    #6054479 - 09/12/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:






Get it yet folks? None of those other buildings had 18 stories worth of corner knocked out of them. Go ahead and concoct your alternate scenarios but when your critical thinking is so non-existant that you insist on comparing multiple building that suffered only fire, to a building that suffered massive structural damage, followed by fire, you make a farce of this whole issue.

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InvisibleClean
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Viveka]
    #6054496 - 09/12/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I see smoke and the top of another building obstructing the view of that corner of WTC 7. It is pretty tough to determine by that photo whether or not the support columns are significantly compromised.

Edited by Clean (09/12/06 06:18 PM)

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OfflineViveka
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Re: 28-Year Career CIA Official Says 9/11 An Inside Job [Re: Clean]
    #6056758 - 09/13/06 11:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's not the point. The point is that it is completely invalid, and demonstrates a complete failure to think critically, to compare buildings that suffered fires, to a building that suffered 18 floors of strucutral damage and fire. And it is this same lack of critical thinking that causes people to entertain delusions instead of seeking to understand reality.

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