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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #604911 -

Don't they teach logic in college nowadays? How does one go about proving a negative?

LOL, obviously a far better college than you went to. Check out how they proved the sun wasn't the center of the universe.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (04/11/02 09:54 AM)

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #604986 -

actually i was being serious
but anyway...onto telepathy.

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Sclorch]
    #605096 -

Prove it? Come to my house........I am an alien.........

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605105 -

How does one go about proving a negative?
can't you start by assuming the positive and by its direct implications reach a statement that is false?

- by the way i'm not saying anything about aliens, this is off topic

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Sclorch]
    #605347 -

YES. That is what I want and I posit that it does not exist.

You're right. As of yet there is no single piece of physical evidence that can be undeniably called from an alien source. However, we do have

Something I can touch that is alien.

I hear they have these pyramids in Egypt..
Prove that humans built them.

A piece of alien hardware.

Well if you aren't satifsfied by the computer you're typing on. (Microchip technology)
Do you mean something like this?
Or something like this?
I find it somewhat amusing that after the Roswell incident, there was a massive surge in technology. Industrial age to the Space age in less than 100 years under natural conditions? Not bloody likely. The Zeta aliens claim to have only been in contact with the US and Russian Governments at that time.

Some alien tissue samples

Tissue samples eh? I don't think we take tissue samples from aliens, I think it's the other way around right? Anyways, the US government would be the only group to have such a thing.. and I doubt you'll get anything from them about it right now.
But you could look at this

Need I even mention the crop circles and many videos of unidentified craft flying at impossible speeds and making impossible maneuvers compared to our best technology?
Or how about the many hundreds of credible witnesses who have said they will testify in front of Congress about their knowledge about aliens and UFOs as they saw when they were in the Government. Many of these people are very highly respected military personel. Respected police officers.. hell... they even have a Harvard professor.

I'm too lazy to find more evidence for you, and I have to go to work now. If that's not enough for you then oh well.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck... well.. chances are its a duck.

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Xlea321]
    #605351 -

Alex123:
"Check out how they proved the sun wasn't the center of the universe."

Sorry, that isn't the same as proving the non-existence of something.

It would help if you could give an example of how to prove the non-existence of something, please state it in your own words. Try this one. How would you prove that there are no twelve foot tall crows with twelve wings?

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605369 -

It would help if you could give an example of how to prove the non-existence of something, please state it in your own words. Try this one. How would you prove that there are no twelve foot tall crows with twelve wings?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I would spend eternity cataloging every single thing that has ever existed at any point in time ?.. Then if no giant crows with 12wings showed up I would of proved their non-existence


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"...and to the left where up is down now stand a zebra made of shapes of me and silver and the sun so bring no guilt with you up above the flatline let's just hit the sky exploding into one." [ HUM ]

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605395 -

"It would help if you could give an example of how to prove the non-existence of something"

Think you can prove the non-existence of 12 foot crows because the world is currently so populated that there is nowhere these creatures could fly without being seen.

But it's a meaningless argument because there is no frame of reference. You cannot prove the existence or non-existence of aliens in a place the size of the Universe when your frame of reference comprises one corner at the edge of one galaxy.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605535 -

Don't run Shroomism.

1. That was not evidence of anything. Those were just links to websites with pictures, claims, and "eye-witness" testamonials. Did you know that just because the U.S. Government classified something (like a ufo "sighting") does not mean that it actually happened? "People don't lie to the government Sclorch, the government lies to them!" Yeah, no one has EVER cheated just a little bit on their taxes... And I don't see why a Harvard professor couldn't be capable of lying (or being mistaken- maybe he was a friend of Timothy's and got dosed unknowningly.... hehe).

2. You didn't even reply to the telepathy part of my last post.
remember this?:
you should end every post on the subject with a line similar to: Of course, none of this has been proven... it is based mainly on anecdotal evidence/personal experience.
I think this is fair, is it not?

But I do love the hasty retreat:
I'm too lazy to find more evidence for you, and I have to go to work now. If that's not enough for you then oh well.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Xlea321]
    #605568 -

I'm sorry, but you've failed to demonstrate how you can prove the non-existence of something.

Alex123:
"But it's a meaningless argument because there is no frame of reference."

We're not measuring distance or relative speed here, what does a 'frame of reference' have to do with proving non-existence? Logic, syllogisms, set theory... do these terms mean anything to you?

Alex123:
"You cannot prove the existence or non-existence of aliens in a place the size of the Universe when your frame of reference comprises one corner at the edge of one galaxy."

You're partially right. However, the rules of logic don't care what size the universe is or your frame of reference. It is possible to prove the existence of aliens, if they exist. It is not possible to prove the non-existence of aliens if they don't exist.

So, when attempting to argue a point and asking the opposition to prove a negative you are asking for something that cannot logically be done and does nothing to bolster a position that attempts to argue for the existence of something. Proving a negative is not the same as invalidating a theory (like the sun is the center of the universe). A negative in the context of logical proof is an absence of something, non-existence.

Edited by evolving (04/11/02 04:16 PM)

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Sclorch]
    #605625 -

This is rather pointless because we both know there is no concrete evidence for either subject which you and I both knew. Of course, not anywhere did I claim that these things can be proven. You asked for it, so I made a half assed attempt at giving it to you, which I know is pointless. Also, in just about every post I make talking about aliens or telepathy I make it a point to say these things are based on my personal experience. Then you take the Swami approach and tell me to prove these things, which I cannot. Therefore, you win. I don't want to waste my time arguing a neverending battle which is ultimately a waste of energy for both parties. This is the Spirituality and Philosophy board, not prove your experiences to science.

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Sclorch]
    #605839 -

So how do you like my new signature?
Sad that it had to come to this, really.

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605841 -

Oh.. the Earth is round

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605842 -

It's not about winning, it's about how you play the game.

Wait, I played much better... I did win.
Woo fucking hoo.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605848 -

I think it's kind of catchy... but you only have to use it in posts which you mention any aliens or telepathy.  If you use it as a signature for every post, there is an aire of sarcasm to it... people won't really understand that you mean it. :smile: 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605904 -

next thing you know he's going to want your lunch money... i'm guessing that you'll give it to him.

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #605921 -

We're not measuring distance or relative speed here, what does a 'frame of reference' have to do with proving non-existence? Logic, syllogisms, set theory... do these terms mean anything to you?

Sorry but logic won't help you if the alien planet is 300 billion light years away. Do you understand? How can you prove they exist when you can never reach where they exist? Forget about the logic theory you did half a semester on and use common sense.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Xlea321]
    #606014 -

Alex123,
"Sorry but logic won't help you if the alien planet is 300 billion light years away."

Why not? The principles of correct reasoning can work regardless of distances.


Alex123,
"Do you understand?

I understand perfectly, you are unable and/or unwilling to grasp the concept I was trying to convey. It was foolish of me to have attempted to reason with you.


Alex123,
"How can you prove they exist when you can never reach where they exist?"

How do you know they exist if you can never reach where they exist? Anyway, I was not attempting to prove the existence of 'them' nor did I ever state that 'they' didn't exist. I was addressing your challenge, "...why don't you prove aliens don't exist..." The purpose being to point out the fact that proving non-existence is a logical impossibility.


Alex123,
"Forget about the logic theory you did half a semester on and use common sense."

Logic is not a theory. Webster's defines it as, "the science of correct reasoning; the science which deals with the criteria of valid thought." and "correct reasoning; valid induction or deduction; as, logic shows us a better course."

As far as 'common sense,' that appears to be relative to what's common in your personal existence. In my life, if my 'common sense' does not include a great deal of logic, people's businesses will be ruined and for the woman who raised me, lives may have been lossed. I'm guessing that you're probably not designing the next NASA space vehicle.

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: ]
    #606269 -

I was addressing your challenge, "...why don't you prove aliens don't exist..."

I was pointing out to the guy that proving aliens exist is as valid as proving they don't exist. Neither is possible because if they live 300 billion light years away in an alternate universe we are unlikely to to encounter them are we.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Shroomism vs. Reality [Re: Xlea321]
    #612182 -

can anyone prove that even having physical evidence will actually prove that something exists? If I show you some physical evidence that proves the existence of something, then all we have is two people who believe in something. And if the whole world sees the physical evidence and believes it. We have made somthing real by sheer will. Belief in something precedes physical evidence.
Reality flows inside out. From within ourselves. I can prove this with deductive logic but it would only be real to those who believe

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